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Inhuman things happen at sea. Sailors and fishermen are recruited internationally from poor countries, then treated like slaves. No country's law reaches these

by pavlov 2y ago

Inhuman things happen at sea. Sailors and fishermen are recruited internationally from poor countries, then treated like slaves. No country's law reaches these ships, and they're ultimately owned by corporations that have no reason to care. Another example: https://www.dw.com/en/chinese-fishing-fleets-in-indian-ocean-accused-of-abuses/a-68977775 https://www.dw.com/en/chinese-fishing-fleets-in-indian-ocean...

complaintdept 2y ago
A lot of shenanigans happen at sea. Cruise ships are registered in countries favorable to them so passengers have zero chance in court when someone gets hurt or a family member disappears (its happened). If you're an American for instance, you'll never take on a cruise ship owner in an American court, it's got to go through some tiny nation of the ship's home port. Passengers agree to this when they buy the ticket. (no I've never been on a cruise)
- Scoundreller 2y ago
  Interesting how it works so much differently for international aviation
  - jachee 2y ago
    Hard to abandon a plane in international airspace.
    - Suzuran 2y ago
      Aircraft do sometimes get abandoned at remote airfields when the owner goes bankrupt. There are people whose job is to go retrieve them for creditors, when possible. They get ferry permits and waivers to operate the aircraft without its proper documentation and authorizations, and since the equipment history can't be relied on they are basically test pilots for the duration of the return trip. I once talked to a guy who did this in the 80s and 90s; His first repo trip was to pick up a 727 that had been abandoned by a defunct American cargo operator at some airfield in the Middle East. Being the desert, the creditors felt it had a good chance of being serviceable due to the dry environment. He shows up with a repo crew, they inspect the airplane, test what they can, and it's in ragged shape but seems airworthy by all the testing they can do on the ground. There is a snag though - Someone had taken all of the log books and documents, which renders the airplane basically radioactive when it lands back stateside. The cost of recertifying everything will exceed the value of even a new aircraft, and a lot of the electronics and other technical components can't be resold for aviation use without their repair logs. Unless by some miracle the missing documents can be retrieved from the bankrupt former owners, it renders the whole thing just bulk metal scrap. Not what the creditor wants. So he asks around the airfield (as best as he can through the language barrier) for anyone who knows the history of the airplane or its former crew and where the documentation might be found. Eventually he finds someone who indicates enthusiastically that he has just what they need. The pilot goes about other things, flight planning, getting fuel, filing the ferry paperwork, then arrives back at the airplane to see where they stand. Indeed, their friend on the ground had found some of the aircraft's documentation, and had arranged what he found in the manner the local crews were accustomed to; In the pocket where the FAA airworthiness documentation was supposed to be, he had helpfully provided a Quran. They ended up with just enough of the documents though, and in a three leg trip that included almost being arrested in West Germany due to a paperwork error, they safely returned home.
- Teever 2y ago
  Sounds like the shenanigans aren't happening at sea, it's happening in lawyers offices and court rooms.
throw0101d 2y ago
> No country's law reaches these ships […] The 'flag' of the ship is the law to which it must operate (at least in international waters): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_state * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_registration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_registration But a lot of popular flags are lax at employment rules—kind of why they're often picked. But you also have to have the resources for law suits, regardless of flag/registration.
jvanderbot 2y ago
I hear so many negative things about Chinese fishing fleets. When I was in Africa, I was shown how the chinese ships would be stuck in drydock because they needed repairs or fuel and no locals would sell to them. But the government is cozy so they are allowed to continue. In some cities, the land is literally sold to the Chinese government in exchange for funds to pad the coffers, or nominal "services" like removing piles of dirt on the land from mining activities. It's mad neo-colonialism. Instead of armies, you just buy leaders.
- pif 2y ago
  > chinese ships would be stuck in drydock because they needed repairs or fuel and no locals would sell to them. Why do locals refuse business with them?
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    Because they're killing the locals' livelihoods via overfishing. https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2024/04/11/chinas-fishing-fleet-is-causing-havoc-off-africas-coasts https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2024/04/11/... (https://archive.is/0aDEg https://archive.is/0aDEg)
    - jvanderbot 2y ago
      TL;DR: > For the next 20 hours, on a typical day, the bleary-eyed crew would be hauling up fishing nets. If sharks got entangled they would hack off their fins, tossing the mutilated creatures back into the water to die. When dolphins were ensnared, the captain shot them, cut out their teeth and bartered them with passing ships in return for whisky.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        This bit was more what I focused on: > Illegal fishing is also harming local fishermen. Chinese vessels routinely fish in waters close to the shoreline reserved by law for small-scale local fishers. According to the EJF, Chinese trawlers in Mozambique often line their nets with a fine mesh, allowing them to catch smaller fish usually targeted only by locals. They have also been known to intimidate the local fishermen, ripping their nets and hounding them out of their usual fishing grounds. The volume of fish caught by small-scale fishers in Mozambique has slumped by 30% over the past 25 years.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ajmurmann 2y ago
Slightly OT, but the 2019 fictional movie Buoyancy deals with these topics and is depressing and incredible.
maximinus_thrax 2y ago
There is an amazing book describing all of these issues and more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outlaw_Ocean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outlaw_Ocean. It was an eye opener for me, I had no idea what kind of awful stuff goes on in the maritime space
- wisemang 2y ago
  The podcast is great as well (I haven’t read the book).
- marssaxman 2y ago
  Funny - I thought that must be a misspelling of the book by William Langewiesche, "The Outlaw Sea", which I have read and is quite good. I'll have to check out the other one.
hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
Also slavery in Thailand: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/21/such-brutality-tricked-into-slavery-in-the-thai-fishing-industry https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/21/such-brutality...

by pavlov 2y ago

complaintdept 2y ago

A lot of shenanigans happen at sea. Cruise ships are registered in countries favorable to them so passengers have zero chance in court when someone gets hurt or a family member disappears (its happened). If you're an American for instance, you'll never take on a cruise ship owner in an American court, it's got to go through some tiny nation of the ship's home port. Passengers agree to this when they buy the ticket. (no I've never been on a cruise)

Scoundreller 2y ago
Interesting how it works so much differently for international aviation
- jachee 2y ago
  Hard to abandon a plane in international airspace.
  - Suzuran 2y ago
    Aircraft do sometimes get abandoned at remote airfields when the owner goes bankrupt. There are people whose job is to go retrieve them for creditors, when possible. They get ferry permits and waivers to operate the aircraft without its proper documentation and authorizations, and since the equipment history can't be relied on they are basically test pilots for the duration of the return trip. I once talked to a guy who did this in the 80s and 90s; His first repo trip was to pick up a 727 that had been abandoned by a defunct American cargo operator at some airfield in the Middle East. Being the desert, the creditors felt it had a good chance of being serviceable due to the dry environment. He shows up with a repo crew, they inspect the airplane, test what they can, and it's in ragged shape but seems airworthy by all the testing they can do on the ground. There is a snag though - Someone had taken all of the log books and documents, which renders the airplane basically radioactive when it lands back stateside. The cost of recertifying everything will exceed the value of even a new aircraft, and a lot of the electronics and other technical components can't be resold for aviation use without their repair logs. Unless by some miracle the missing documents can be retrieved from the bankrupt former owners, it renders the whole thing just bulk metal scrap. Not what the creditor wants. So he asks around the airfield (as best as he can through the language barrier) for anyone who knows the history of the airplane or its former crew and where the documentation might be found. Eventually he finds someone who indicates enthusiastically that he has just what they need. The pilot goes about other things, flight planning, getting fuel, filing the ferry paperwork, then arrives back at the airplane to see where they stand. Indeed, their friend on the ground had found some of the aircraft's documentation, and had arranged what he found in the manner the local crews were accustomed to; In the pocket where the FAA airworthiness documentation was supposed to be, he had helpfully provided a Quran. They ended up with just enough of the documents though, and in a three leg trip that included almost being arrested in West Germany due to a paperwork error, they safely returned home.
Teever 2y ago
Sounds like the shenanigans aren't happening at sea, it's happening in lawyers offices and court rooms.

throw0101d 2y ago

> No country's law reaches these ships […] The 'flag' of the ship is the law to which it must operate (at least in international waters): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_state * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_registration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_registration But a lot of popular flags are lax at employment rules—kind of why they're often picked. But you also have to have the resources for law suits, regardless of flag/registration.

jvanderbot 2y ago

I hear so many negative things about Chinese fishing fleets. When I was in Africa, I was shown how the chinese ships would be stuck in drydock because they needed repairs or fuel and no locals would sell to them. But the government is cozy so they are allowed to continue. In some cities, the land is literally sold to the Chinese government in exchange for funds to pad the coffers, or nominal "services" like removing piles of dirt on the land from mining activities. It's mad neo-colonialism. Instead of armies, you just buy leaders.

pif 2y ago
> chinese ships would be stuck in drydock because they needed repairs or fuel and no locals would sell to them. Why do locals refuse business with them?
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Because they're killing the locals' livelihoods via overfishing. https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2024/04/11/chinas-fishing-fleet-is-causing-havoc-off-africas-coasts https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2024/04/11/... (https://archive.is/0aDEg https://archive.is/0aDEg)
  - jvanderbot 2y ago
    TL;DR: > For the next 20 hours, on a typical day, the bleary-eyed crew would be hauling up fishing nets. If sharks got entangled they would hack off their fins, tossing the mutilated creatures back into the water to die. When dolphins were ensnared, the captain shot them, cut out their teeth and bartered them with passing ships in return for whisky.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      This bit was more what I focused on: > Illegal fishing is also harming local fishermen. Chinese vessels routinely fish in waters close to the shoreline reserved by law for small-scale local fishers. According to the EJF, Chinese trawlers in Mozambique often line their nets with a fine mesh, allowing them to catch smaller fish usually targeted only by locals. They have also been known to intimidate the local fishermen, ripping their nets and hounding them out of their usual fishing grounds. The volume of fish caught by small-scale fishers in Mozambique has slumped by 30% over the past 25 years.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ajmurmann 2y ago

Slightly OT, but the 2019 fictional movie Buoyancy deals with these topics and is depressing and incredible.

maximinus_thrax 2y ago

There is an amazing book describing all of these issues and more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outlaw_Ocean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outlaw_Ocean. It was an eye opener for me, I had no idea what kind of awful stuff goes on in the maritime space

wisemang 2y ago
The podcast is great as well (I haven’t read the book).
marssaxman 2y ago
Funny - I thought that must be a misspelling of the book by William Langewiesche, "The Outlaw Sea", which I have read and is quite good. I'll have to check out the other one.

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago

Also slavery in Thailand: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/21/such-brutality-tricked-into-slavery-in-the-thai-fishing-industry https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/21/such-brutality...