5 ms·

I’d rather bet on BYD :)

vardump 2y ago
BYD is heavily subsidized by the Chinese government. On the other hand, the Biden administration has done a lot to throw wrenches into Tesla's gears.
- sschueller 2y ago
  You know that Tesla has received billions from States and the Federal Government? [1] [1] https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc
  - TMWNN 2y ago
    But that subsidy is not Tesla-specific. It's strictly pay-for-performance: The more cars a carmaker sells, the more subsidies (well, tax credits) are provided. If Tesla has received "billions", the only reason other carmakers haven't received the same amount is because their cars aren't as popular.
    - FabHK 2y ago
      Eh, there was also the episode where Tesla introduced a battery swapping scheme only to claim higher green tax credits, without actually rolling it out. It's a deceptive company.
  - mavhc 2y ago
    Tesla: 2.8 billion Ford: 7.7 billion
  - vardump 2y ago
    That 2.8B is nothing compared to what China is likely doing. That's just the way China operates when it's about anything it considers strategic. We probably won't ever know the whole extent this is happening. Here's one study that claims BYD has received 3.4B: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-10/byd-got-3-4-billion-chinese-aid-to-dominate-evs-study-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-10/byd-got-3...
    - sschueller 2y ago
      That 3.4B China gave is also nothing compared to the 100% tariff on EVs that the US has levied on China made cars. That's just the way the US operates when it's about anything it considers strategic.
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  I thought EVs were good for the environment, shouldn't we be grateful for the communist party's efforts in making them affordable?
  - chii 2y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmLekaO4LMc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmLekaO4LMc from an economics professor who examines the evidence about what is causing the trade war between china and the west. The main thesis is that car manufacturing (and associated manufacturing such as batteries, electronics etc) is "strategic" enough that the west doesn't want to build a dependence on china for it. In the event of a war, china can cripple the west by cutting off the exports, and/or potentially install backdoors into the devices and shut them down to disrupt etc. Not to mention that by allowing china to own the manufacturing, they will have built up the massive industrial capacity for which it is easy to convert to a war time factory. The west's dwindling manufacturing capacity would mean that china will out-produce and win - lessons that is learnt from WW2.
    - protomolecule 2y ago
      >In the event of a war, china can cripple the west by cutting off the exports Isn't that a good thing? This makes the all-out war between China and the US much less likely.
      - blake1 2y ago
        It’s a bad thing if it increases China’s confidence that it can win. Wars are often launched as soon as one side thinks it has a winning strategy that might slip away over time.
        protomolecule 2y ago
        Win what?
        2y ago
- idontwantthis 2y ago
  What on Earth has Biden done to harm Tesla?
  - TMWNN 2y ago
    Biden and his administration have gone out of their way to pretend that Tesla does not exist. <https://www.eenews.net/articles/why-biden-wont-talk-about-tesla/ https://www.eenews.net/articles/why-biden-wont-talk-about-te...> Tesla was not invited to the administration's August 2021 EV vehicle summit. <https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/business/tesla-snub-white-house-event/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/business/tesla-snub-white-hou...> The government excluded the nation and the world's EV leader from participating. If the administration could have figured out a way of excluding Tesla from the EV tax credit system, it would have.
    - vardump 2y ago
      > If the administration could have figured out a way of excluding Tesla from the EV tax credit system, it would have. Oh, but they actually really tried at first. Like for example by considering Tesla Model Y as a sedan, thus not qualifying for a higher tax credit ceiling. https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/4/23586035/tesla-model-y-price-increase-ev-tax-credit https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/4/23586035/tesla-model-y-pri...
- resolutebat 2y ago
  Government EV subsidies in China are being tapered off rapidly, they don't need them any more. https://dialogue.earth/en/business/life-after-subsidies-for-chinas-evs/ https://dialogue.earth/en/business/life-after-subsidies-for-...
- mft_ 2y ago
  Can you recommend any good sources to explain how the Chinese government subsidises BYD? I’ve done a little bit of reading around and the term subsidy is often used without further clarification. For example, is it direct payments, or business tax breaks, or tax breaks on sales of EVs, or something else?
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    Exchange rates?
sien 2y ago
It is remarkable how many electric BYD cars there are in Australia now. BYD is really selling heaps of cars https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/02/chinas-byd-overtakes-tesla-as-top-selling-electric-car-seller https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/02/chinas-b...

BYD is heavily subsidized by the Chinese government. On the other hand, the Biden administration has done a lot to throw wrenches into Tesla's gears.

sschueller 2y ago
You know that Tesla has received billions from States and the Federal Government? [1] [1] https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc
- TMWNN 2y ago
  But that subsidy is not Tesla-specific. It's strictly pay-for-performance: The more cars a carmaker sells, the more subsidies (well, tax credits) are provided. If Tesla has received "billions", the only reason other carmakers haven't received the same amount is because their cars aren't as popular.
  - FabHK 2y ago
    Eh, there was also the episode where Tesla introduced a battery swapping scheme only to claim higher green tax credits, without actually rolling it out. It's a deceptive company.
- mavhc 2y ago
  Tesla: 2.8 billion Ford: 7.7 billion
- vardump 2y ago
  That 2.8B is nothing compared to what China is likely doing. That's just the way China operates when it's about anything it considers strategic. We probably won't ever know the whole extent this is happening. Here's one study that claims BYD has received 3.4B: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-10/byd-got-3-4-billion-chinese-aid-to-dominate-evs-study-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-10/byd-got-3...
  - sschueller 2y ago
    That 3.4B China gave is also nothing compared to the 100% tariff on EVs that the US has levied on China made cars. That's just the way the US operates when it's about anything it considers strategic.
jazzyjackson 2y ago
I thought EVs were good for the environment, shouldn't we be grateful for the communist party's efforts in making them affordable?
- chii 2y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmLekaO4LMc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmLekaO4LMc from an economics professor who examines the evidence about what is causing the trade war between china and the west. The main thesis is that car manufacturing (and associated manufacturing such as batteries, electronics etc) is "strategic" enough that the west doesn't want to build a dependence on china for it. In the event of a war, china can cripple the west by cutting off the exports, and/or potentially install backdoors into the devices and shut them down to disrupt etc. Not to mention that by allowing china to own the manufacturing, they will have built up the massive industrial capacity for which it is easy to convert to a war time factory. The west's dwindling manufacturing capacity would mean that china will out-produce and win - lessons that is learnt from WW2.
  - protomolecule 2y ago
    >In the event of a war, china can cripple the west by cutting off the exports Isn't that a good thing? This makes the all-out war between China and the US much less likely.
    - blake1 2y ago
      It’s a bad thing if it increases China’s confidence that it can win. Wars are often launched as soon as one side thinks it has a winning strategy that might slip away over time.
      - protomolecule 2y ago
        Win what?
        2y ago
idontwantthis 2y ago
What on Earth has Biden done to harm Tesla?
- TMWNN 2y ago
  Biden and his administration have gone out of their way to pretend that Tesla does not exist. <https://www.eenews.net/articles/why-biden-wont-talk-about-tesla/ https://www.eenews.net/articles/why-biden-wont-talk-about-te...> Tesla was not invited to the administration's August 2021 EV vehicle summit. <https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/business/tesla-snub-white-house-event/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/business/tesla-snub-white-hou...> The government excluded the nation and the world's EV leader from participating. If the administration could have figured out a way of excluding Tesla from the EV tax credit system, it would have.
  - vardump 2y ago
    > If the administration could have figured out a way of excluding Tesla from the EV tax credit system, it would have. Oh, but they actually really tried at first. Like for example by considering Tesla Model Y as a sedan, thus not qualifying for a higher tax credit ceiling. https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/4/23586035/tesla-model-y-price-increase-ev-tax-credit https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/4/23586035/tesla-model-y-pri...
resolutebat 2y ago
Government EV subsidies in China are being tapered off rapidly, they don't need them any more. https://dialogue.earth/en/business/life-after-subsidies-for-chinas-evs/ https://dialogue.earth/en/business/life-after-subsidies-for-...
mft_ 2y ago
Can you recommend any good sources to explain how the Chinese government subsidises BYD? I’ve done a little bit of reading around and the term subsidy is often used without further clarification. For example, is it direct payments, or business tax breaks, or tax breaks on sales of EVs, or something else?
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  Exchange rates?

sien 2y ago

It is remarkable how many electric BYD cars there are in Australia now. BYD is really selling heaps of cars https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/02/chinas-byd-overtakes-tesla-as-top-selling-electric-car-seller https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/02/chinas-b...