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> Not dissimilar from retailers deciding whether to embrace Amazon as a distribution channel or not. Honestly, I wonder if Tesla will be similar. They just wo

• Marciplan 2y ago
  I’d rather bet on BYD :)
  • vardump 2y ago
    BYD is heavily subsidized by the Chinese government. On the other hand, the Biden administration has done a lot to throw wrenches into Tesla's gears.
    • sschueller 2y ago
      You know that Tesla has received billions from States and the Federal Government? [1] [1] https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc
      • TMWNN 2y ago
        But that subsidy is not Tesla-specific. It's strictly pay-for-performance: The more cars a carmaker sells, the more subsidies (well, tax credits) are provided. If Tesla has received "billions", the only reason other carmakers haven't received the same amount is because their cars aren't as popular.
        • FabHK 2y ago
          Eh, there was also the episode where Tesla introduced a battery swapping scheme only to claim higher green tax credits, without actually rolling it out. It's a deceptive company.
      • mavhc 2y ago
        Tesla: 2.8 billion Ford: 7.7 billion
      • vardump 2y ago
        That 2.8B is nothing compared to what China is likely doing. That's just the way China operates when it's about anything it considers strategic. We probably won't ever know the whole extent this is happening. Here's one study that claims BYD has received 3.4B: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-10/byd-got-3-4-billion-chinese-aid-to-dominate-evs-study-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-10/byd-got-3...
        • sschueller 2y ago
          That 3.4B China gave is also nothing compared to the 100% tariff on EVs that the US has levied on China made cars. That's just the way the US operates when it's about anything it considers strategic.
    • jazzyjackson 2y ago
      I thought EVs were good for the environment, shouldn't we be grateful for the communist party's efforts in making them affordable?
      • chii 2y ago
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmLekaO4LMc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmLekaO4LMc from an economics professor who examines the evidence about what is causing the trade war between china and the west. The main thesis is that car manufacturing (and associated manufacturing such as batteries, electronics etc) is "strategic" enough that the west doesn't want to build a dependence on china for it. In the event of a war, china can cripple the west by cutting off the exports, and/or potentially install backdoors into the devices and shut them down to disrupt etc. Not to mention that by allowing china to own the manufacturing, they will have built up the massive industrial capacity for which it is easy to convert to a war time factory. The west's dwindling manufacturing capacity would mean that china will out-produce and win - lessons that is learnt from WW2.
        • protomolecule 2y ago
          >In the event of a war, china can cripple the west by cutting off the exports Isn't that a good thing? This makes the all-out war between China and the US much less likely.
          • blake1 2y ago
            It’s a bad thing if it increases China’s confidence that it can win. Wars are often launched as soon as one side thinks it has a winning strategy that might slip away over time.
            • protomolecule 2y ago
              Win what?
              • 2y ago
    • idontwantthis 2y ago
      What on Earth has Biden done to harm Tesla?
      • TMWNN 2y ago
        Biden and his administration have gone out of their way to pretend that Tesla does not exist. <https://www.eenews.net/articles/why-biden-wont-talk-about-tesla/ https://www.eenews.net/articles/why-biden-wont-talk-about-te...> Tesla was not invited to the administration's August 2021 EV vehicle summit. <https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/business/tesla-snub-white-house-event/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/business/tesla-snub-white-hou...> The government excluded the nation and the world's EV leader from participating. If the administration could have figured out a way of excluding Tesla from the EV tax credit system, it would have.
        • vardump 2y ago
          > If the administration could have figured out a way of excluding Tesla from the EV tax credit system, it would have. Oh, but they actually really tried at first. Like for example by considering Tesla Model Y as a sedan, thus not qualifying for a higher tax credit ceiling. https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/4/23586035/tesla-model-y-price-increase-ev-tax-credit https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/4/23586035/tesla-model-y-pri...
    • resolutebat 2y ago
      Government EV subsidies in China are being tapered off rapidly, they don't need them any more. https://dialogue.earth/en/business/life-after-subsidies-for-chinas-evs/ https://dialogue.earth/en/business/life-after-subsidies-for-...
    • mft_ 2y ago
      Can you recommend any good sources to explain how the Chinese government subsidises BYD? I’ve done a little bit of reading around and the term subsidy is often used without further clarification. For example, is it direct payments, or business tax breaks, or tax breaks on sales of EVs, or something else?
      • actionfromafar 2y ago
        Exchange rates?
  • sien 2y ago
    It is remarkable how many electric BYD cars there are in Australia now. BYD is really selling heaps of cars https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/02/chinas-byd-overtakes-tesla-as-top-selling-electric-car-seller https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/02/chinas-b...
• matthewdgreen 2y ago
  Nobody “won” the charging standard war except for the consumer. Tesla had a great connector and a huge charging network, but it was closed and proprietary with a non-interoperable digital protocol. Government and the rest of the industry demanded an open standard with an interoperable digital protocol that allowed for payments. Tesla thus faced the choice of having everyone adopt the inferior (open) CCS connector, making their current cars basically obsolete; or else releasing their excellent physical connector and opening their chargers to the whole world and adopting the existing CCS digital protocol. They rationally chose the latter and all of North America moved onto it. This is certainly “winning” in the sense that Tesla chose the option that wasn’t a total disaster for Tesla and their customers, and the world got to benefit from an excellent open standard. ETA: If believing that this is “winning” causes Tesla folks to encourage further positive-sum behavior, ignore everything I said: Tesla kicked everyone’s ass. Rah.
  • enslavedrobot 2y ago
    Tesla tried to get their charging standard adopted years ago from the outset of their business. The incumbents rejected the standard. Now they are adopting it.
    • GuB-42 2y ago
      As I understand it, it came with strings attached, and incumbents understandably rejected it. Now they really opened the system, that's what drove the adoption. Another thing: Not the whole world adopted the Tesla connector, only North America (that's why it is called NACS). Europe uses CCS-2, including for Tesla cars. CCS-2 is better than CCS, and arguably better than NACS in Europe as it supports 3-phase AC.
      • ethagknight 2y ago
        Why is 3 phase AC better? Doesn’t that just require additional components in the car to convert to DC?
        • 2y ago
• greenthrow 2y ago
  Tesla didn't "win" the charging standard war. They finally made it possible to make a standard based on their connector and most manufacturers agreed to use it in the US. But then Elon fired the supercharger team in a temper tantrum and spooked the industry. It's also not true that all other manufacturers are losing money on EVs. BMW and VW notably have been profitable on theirs. Lastly stop giving so much credence to what Tesla claims in presentation and start paying attention to what they actually sell. So far they have sold 4680 cells in two cars and both have had disappointing charging curves. Not impressive at the moment especially compared to what Chinese companies are offering.
  • firesteelrain 2y ago
    Musk fired the Starlink team in 2018: https://qz.com/1446024/elon-musk-fired-senior-leaders-on-spacexs-satellite-team https://qz.com/1446024/elon-musk-fired-senior-leaders-on-spa... Musk also fired the Raptor team at least once.
    • OccamsMirror 2y ago
      Musk seems desperate to snatch defeat from the jaws of success.
      • mavhc 2y ago
        And all it's got him is the richest person in the world, with the best selling model car, most of the space launch industry, a global isp, and some minor social network the news media are obsessed with
      • TMWNN 2y ago
        You're missing firesteelrail's point. Musk fired the Starlink team in 2018 after it failed to meet goals, and basically took personal charge. Today Starlink is by far the world's leader in two-way satellite data. Despite it being a business Musk himself acknowledged has historically been a surefire money-loser, it is now generating an estimated $600 billion in FCF annually and is an important part of SpaceX's overall growth.
• Animats 2y ago
  > Watching the battery presentation a while back, they're chipping away at battery technology, and every % adds up. Tesla gets most of their battery technology from either Panasonic [1] or CATL.[2] This allows those companies to operate in the US to avoid tariffs. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2022/07/13/teslas-long-time-partner-panasonic-building-4-billion-ev-battery-plant-in-kansas https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2022/07/13/teslas-l... [2] https://www.electrive.com/2024/03/25/catl-and-tesla-launch-cooperation-to-optimise-charging-times/ https://www.electrive.com/2024/03/25/catl-and-tesla-launch-c...
  • TheAlchemist 2y ago
    And yet, they somehow managed to convince most people that they are a leader in battery technology ! Fascinating.
  • gorpy7 2y ago
    that’s a little like saying macbooks get their long battery life from their batteries alone. there’s a lot to consider downstream.