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> because the language has some kind of macro system Sure, but Java currently does not offer a macro system (which brings many downsides in addition to upsides

by pron 2y ago

> because the language has some kind of macro system Sure, but Java currently does not offer a macro system (which brings many downsides in addition to upsides) and that's by choice. Offering what amounts to a macro system via an API would be a decision with big ramification that is not to be taken lightly. Even then the language needs to decide the extent of the powers of such a system. You don't have to like this state of affairs, but you can't pretend it isn't what it is. Every language gets to choose what guarantees it offers its users. > Because Lombok is trying to be a minimalist extension to Java not a completely different language with very different syntax and semantics. And that's perfectly fine, but the Java specification, by current choice, does not allow making either small or large changes to it. Any language that does not conform to the specification of the Java language is, by definition, not Java regardless of how similar it is. Consequently, the Java compiler does allow code implementing another language to change the compiler's inner workings to compile that new language by configuring it in a certain way, but it does not allow code to do that without special configuration while masquerading as a Java library that appears to conform to the specification.

skissane 2y ago
> You don't have to like this state of affairs, This attitude is part of why I have given up on Java – despite having spent so much of my career on it – and nowadays avoid it as much as I can. In my own mind it is a legacy language - if I have some existing code base in Java, extending/enhancing it might be the path of least resistance, but for a greenfield project it would be far from my first choice.
- pron 2y ago
  Any philosophy, let alone policy, isn't for everyone, and we want to make our policies clear so that the people who align with them will choose the platform, while those who do not -- won't. It is due to this careful philosophy and policy that places an emphasis on integrity (safety) and specification that has made Java the #1 chosen language for new important server-side applications today; i.e. it is more people's first choice than any other language for this domain (despite others who have considered it a legacy language since 2006). Java says that an application can monkey-patch whatever it likes but that a library needs to be given that permission by the application. If that's not what you need, then Java isn't for you and you should consider it a legacy language for your needs. Like some other languages and unlike others we will continue placing an emphasis on safety, as that appeals to most of our users and hopefully to future users, too. Those who want to easily monkey-patch anything from any code without controls -- which is also a valid requirement -- also have a selection of languages to choose from.
  - skissane 2y ago
    > Java the #1 chosen language for new important server-side applications today What is the evidence for that claim?
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      Any real world market analysis survey that shows what languages are used across the industry, not only SV startups, when performance matters. Plus the whole development toolchain for the mobile OS with 80% of the world market, even if Kotlin is favoured, there is plenty of Java on Android Studio, Gradle, Bazel, AOSP, and Maven Central.
    - pron 2y ago
      Ask for a report from a market analyst. Out of curiosity, though, what language would you imagine is now chosen more frequently than Java for important server-side applications? (you can test your guess against some publicly-available jobs data such as https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-8-most-demanded-programming-languages/ https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-8-most-demanded-prog...)
      - skissane 2y ago
        It is a vague claim. How do you decide what is “important”? And if the backing is a non-public market analyst report, different such reports can reach different conclusions. > you can test your guess against some publicly-available jobs data such as Which I note has both JavaScript/TypeScript and Python ahead of Java. Both of which are being used for a lot of server-side applications-whether or not you consider them important is rather subjective. (JS/TS is obviously including a lot of front-end stuff, and that site doesn’t disaggregate front-end from back-end; but Python is almost all back-end.)
        pron 2y ago
        > It is a vague claim. How do you decide what is “important”? Java is so clearly ahead and by so much that it doesn't really matter, but generally, "important" can mean size, expected lifetime, criticality for business or some combination of them. > Which I note has both JavaScript/TypeScript and Python ahead of Java. Python is about on par or slightly ahead but given that the vast majority of the uses of Java are for server side applications, while the vast majority of Python uses are for data analysis etc., so clearly Java is much more favoured for serious applications (not to mention Python's serious scaling issue). JS is indeed significantly ahead, but again, clearly the vast majority of JS use is for web client programming. Node.js was very big for a while, but it isn't as big anymore. Again, ask any market analyst. Perhaps in 2035 some new language is going to show up and unseat Java, but in 2024, Java is the language of choice for serious server-side apps -- not the majority choice (i.e. all other languages combined may make up more than 50%), perhaps, but the first choice nonetheless.
- beeboobaa3 2y ago
  I like java, but it's unfortunate the current stewards come off as unlikable on social media. Most of the work they're doing is great, though.
  - vips7L 2y ago
    I particularly like the current stewards. They've done a great job and have been consistently putting Java and the JVMs best interest at the forefront.

by pron 2y ago

skissane 2y ago

> You don't have to like this state of affairs, This attitude is part of why I have given up on Java – despite having spent so much of my career on it – and nowadays avoid it as much as I can. In my own mind it is a legacy language - if I have some existing code base in Java, extending/enhancing it might be the path of least resistance, but for a greenfield project it would be far from my first choice.

pron 2y ago
Any philosophy, let alone policy, isn't for everyone, and we want to make our policies clear so that the people who align with them will choose the platform, while those who do not -- won't. It is due to this careful philosophy and policy that places an emphasis on integrity (safety) and specification that has made Java the #1 chosen language for new important server-side applications today; i.e. it is more people's first choice than any other language for this domain (despite others who have considered it a legacy language since 2006). Java says that an application can monkey-patch whatever it likes but that a library needs to be given that permission by the application. If that's not what you need, then Java isn't for you and you should consider it a legacy language for your needs. Like some other languages and unlike others we will continue placing an emphasis on safety, as that appeals to most of our users and hopefully to future users, too. Those who want to easily monkey-patch anything from any code without controls -- which is also a valid requirement -- also have a selection of languages to choose from.
- skissane 2y ago
  > Java the #1 chosen language for new important server-side applications today What is the evidence for that claim?
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Any real world market analysis survey that shows what languages are used across the industry, not only SV startups, when performance matters. Plus the whole development toolchain for the mobile OS with 80% of the world market, even if Kotlin is favoured, there is plenty of Java on Android Studio, Gradle, Bazel, AOSP, and Maven Central.
  - pron 2y ago
    Ask for a report from a market analyst. Out of curiosity, though, what language would you imagine is now chosen more frequently than Java for important server-side applications? (you can test your guess against some publicly-available jobs data such as https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-8-most-demanded-programming-languages/ https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-8-most-demanded-prog...)
    - skissane 2y ago
      It is a vague claim. How do you decide what is “important”? And if the backing is a non-public market analyst report, different such reports can reach different conclusions. > you can test your guess against some publicly-available jobs data such as Which I note has both JavaScript/TypeScript and Python ahead of Java. Both of which are being used for a lot of server-side applications-whether or not you consider them important is rather subjective. (JS/TS is obviously including a lot of front-end stuff, and that site doesn’t disaggregate front-end from back-end; but Python is almost all back-end.)
      - pron 2y ago
        > It is a vague claim. How do you decide what is “important”? Java is so clearly ahead and by so much that it doesn't really matter, but generally, "important" can mean size, expected lifetime, criticality for business or some combination of them. > Which I note has both JavaScript/TypeScript and Python ahead of Java. Python is about on par or slightly ahead but given that the vast majority of the uses of Java are for server side applications, while the vast majority of Python uses are for data analysis etc., so clearly Java is much more favoured for serious applications (not to mention Python's serious scaling issue). JS is indeed significantly ahead, but again, clearly the vast majority of JS use is for web client programming. Node.js was very big for a while, but it isn't as big anymore. Again, ask any market analyst. Perhaps in 2035 some new language is going to show up and unseat Java, but in 2024, Java is the language of choice for serious server-side apps -- not the majority choice (i.e. all other languages combined may make up more than 50%), perhaps, but the first choice nonetheless.
beeboobaa3 2y ago
I like java, but it's unfortunate the current stewards come off as unlikable on social media. Most of the work they're doing is great, though.
- vips7L 2y ago
  I particularly like the current stewards. They've done a great job and have been consistently putting Java and the JVMs best interest at the forefront.