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> First, there are some employees who believe that being in the office will benefit their careers. They are probably right; workers who return to the office are

> First, there are some employees who believe that being in the office will benefit their careers. They are probably right; workers who return to the office are more likely to receive promotions. Whether organisations should promote the careerists who come back to the office in hopes that their loyalty (or submissiveness to RTO mandates) will win them promotions that their performance and effectiveness would not, is an open question. I take issue with the fact how quickly this is dismissed as simply rewarding loyalty and submissiveness. It completely ignores how much junior employees struggle with WFH. Without an office there is very little opportunity for junior employees to casually talk to senior employees and learn from them. It is also much harder for managers to notice if a junior employee is doing well or not. So it is no surprise it is easier to get promotions with an RTO mandate and it has very little to do with loyalty.

mozman 2y ago
I proactively schedule 1:1s with junior staff and reach out. I weed out the ones with potential and ones who lack ambition.
- cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
  “Proactively” scheduling 1:1s with juniors is, frankly, the bare minimum. It’s just doing your job. If you think that this solves the problem, you are bad at your job.
qzx_pierri 2y ago
Are you a manager?
civilized 2y ago
The lack of communication of potentially valid reasons such as these might contribute to why people view RTO mandates with cynicism. If we knew why we were being asked to RTO, we could solve that problem in the way we thought best, combining in-person and remote time. And those of us with junior team members we care about are already solving for this in the way we think best.
- readyman 2y ago
  >And those of us with junior team members we care about are already solving for this in the way we think best. Solve it in the way the juniors think best if you want to accomplish anything.
  - civilized 2y ago
    Believe it or not, we talk, and their input influences my actions.
vrnvu 2y ago
If a junior struggles with WFH you have an engineering culture problem. Which the junior is not responsible for by the way... It's staff and senior engineers responsability ˆˆ
- mdgrech23 2y ago
  Personally would put the blame higher up than that.
  - HelloNurse 2y ago
    The aforementioned senior employees and managers should find a way to talk with junior employees instead of assuming that no news is good news.
    - giantg2 2y ago
      Even when no news is good news, the juniors would get screwed because the managers don't know what's going on. The people who can just quietly do their job (and the one above it) don't get promoted. Only the ones that say "look at me" or where the managers are tracking them closely.
rightlane 2y ago
My juniors thrive in a WFH environment. This is a problem with the culture and the seniors not WFH. The promotion issue is real. But let's be honest, promotion in tech mostly happens by changing jobs. The in the office people are the ones who are really slowing down their career growth.
- readyman 2y ago
  As a junior employee, I have no patience for your point. Going into office is one thing juniors can do about the "problem with the culture" so my stance stays the same until the so-called culture changes. In my experience, the number of seniors who complain sbout RTO and don't hoard knowledge is tiny.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - rimunroe 2y ago
    > In my experience, the number of seniors who complain sbout RTO and don't hoard knowledge is tiny. "Hoarding knowledge" makes it sound like they're intentionally trying to keep knowledge to themselves. I don't think the problem with remote leveling is due to seniors intentionally holding onto knowledge. I do see some senior employees try to hold ownership of a specific area of their work for apparently selfish reasons, but they're a minority. I've spent a lot of time talking with other seniors (and juniors!) about ways to make sure we're spending time working with mixes of skill levels, but it's a hard problem. Just advertising that you're available to help if anyone needs anything does basically nothing to encourage most juniors to ask. It takes a lot of juniors a long time to lose inhibitions for asking for help, and I think people can often make it to senior levels without learning how to be proactive about offering help. It does seem easier for most people to ask for help in person. I think one of the causes of this is because even in this field, most people don't grow up doing so much communication and socialization purely using crude text and video calling which have remained mostly unchanged since the 80s or 90s. Most people handle in-person socialization much better, and can read and express cues more naturally there, especially in a work environment. Also, those communication methods have a degree of formality attached to them which feels like a barrier. Personally, I think it might help a bit if telework software would take more cues from video games (proximity-based chat and virtual environments with rooms and doors). There are some programs for this, but the few I've tried haven't been polished enough to use. The few I've used though did seem to make impromptu collaboration easier, but of course there could have been many reasons for that (e.g. novelty).
batch12 2y ago
It also creates new opportunities for employees who enjoy or don't mind working from an office that may not have otherwise been available.
jmclnx 2y ago
I believe,at least in IT, once you get to a certain age, promotions are really meaningless, especially in large companies. So I think if you are young and you want to be on management track, you probably should go in.
- hmmm-i-wonder 2y ago
  In any job, once compensation is no longer significant (i.e. close to retirement, reached savings goals etc) then promotions are meaningless sure. But in most fields, IT included, compensation range is linked to role. For most people that means 50-80% of your career promotions and compensation are linked and meaningful. But after some stage when life goals are reached and you're in end of career planning, I agree promotions are largely meaningless to many people (outside of those who's self-image is tied up with their role and job). Ultimately I don't see IT being especially different from any other field here, what is it in IT you see influencing that?
  - smugma 2y ago
    In large tech companies, you might reach a terminal rank (ic5-6) before you’re 40. Total comp might be 400-500k, which is great but you’ve still got 10-20 years to retirement (Bay Area and Tahoe homes are expensive and if you enjoy your job you might not want to retire at 50). So there may not be another promotion, and that’s freeing. You can focus on professional development free of concerns for looking good but grow in ways of interest to you.
    - hmmm-i-wonder 2y ago
      Is that really unique to IT? Small to medium companies, academic and govt IT jobs will typically never reach those income levels. I think the Avg software dev salary in the US is around 77k, so a lot of the IT field has to make a lot less. I agree in large tech companies that absolutely exists, but I also see it in legal, medical and some other professions that a subset of them can reach similar income levels. (250k+ by mid to late 30's, 400k+ if in Bay or similar CoL area). Its a nice reality when you can be ~40 and have the freedom to retire whenever you want, but its not one I see as common for the majority of tech workers.
blitzar 2y ago
It completely ignores how much senoir employees struggle with WFH. Without an office there is very little opportunity for senior employees to casually look to see how hard junior employees are staring at their monitor to determine the depth and quality of their work. Instead they have to look at the actual work produced and try to understand it well enough to not look like an idiot when they talk about it.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  >see how hard junior employees are staring at their monitor to determine the depth and quality of their work. I don't think any senior does this. Managers, yes. Maybe a few leads. But I know butt in seat doesn't correlate to amount of quality work. I've had days where everything is blank in my head and others where I did a week's work in a day. You can influence this somewhat by having a good environment, but the creative process doesn't work like blue collar work (despite many of our systems in office based on blue collar labor processes).
- armada651 2y ago
  > Without an office there is very little opportunity for senior employees to casually look to see how hard junior employees are staring at their monitor to determine the depth and quality of their work. You probably haven't been in the office for a long time if you think all people did there was sit and stare at their monitors all day. > Instead they have to look at the actual work produced and try to understand it well enough to not look like an idiot when they talk about it. Unfortunately not every junior employee has a manager that will champion the value of their work to their peers for them. Junior employees will often have to do that themselves and that's much easier to do in a casual setting during lunch or over drinks than having to schedule a zoom call.
disambiguation 2y ago
juniors are getting hired in this market?

mozman 2y ago

I proactively schedule 1:1s with junior staff and reach out. I weed out the ones with potential and ones who lack ambition.

cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
“Proactively” scheduling 1:1s with juniors is, frankly, the bare minimum. It’s just doing your job. If you think that this solves the problem, you are bad at your job.

qzx_pierri 2y ago

Are you a manager?

civilized 2y ago

The lack of communication of potentially valid reasons such as these might contribute to why people view RTO mandates with cynicism. If we knew why we were being asked to RTO, we could solve that problem in the way we thought best, combining in-person and remote time. And those of us with junior team members we care about are already solving for this in the way we think best.

readyman 2y ago
>And those of us with junior team members we care about are already solving for this in the way we think best. Solve it in the way the juniors think best if you want to accomplish anything.
- civilized 2y ago
  Believe it or not, we talk, and their input influences my actions.

vrnvu 2y ago

If a junior struggles with WFH you have an engineering culture problem. Which the junior is not responsible for by the way... It's staff and senior engineers responsability ˆˆ

mdgrech23 2y ago
Personally would put the blame higher up than that.
- HelloNurse 2y ago
  The aforementioned senior employees and managers should find a way to talk with junior employees instead of assuming that no news is good news.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    Even when no news is good news, the juniors would get screwed because the managers don't know what's going on. The people who can just quietly do their job (and the one above it) don't get promoted. Only the ones that say "look at me" or where the managers are tracking them closely.

rightlane 2y ago

My juniors thrive in a WFH environment. This is a problem with the culture and the seniors not WFH. The promotion issue is real. But let's be honest, promotion in tech mostly happens by changing jobs. The in the office people are the ones who are really slowing down their career growth.

readyman 2y ago
As a junior employee, I have no patience for your point. Going into office is one thing juniors can do about the "problem with the culture" so my stance stays the same until the so-called culture changes. In my experience, the number of seniors who complain sbout RTO and don't hoard knowledge is tiny.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- rimunroe 2y ago
  > In my experience, the number of seniors who complain sbout RTO and don't hoard knowledge is tiny. "Hoarding knowledge" makes it sound like they're intentionally trying to keep knowledge to themselves. I don't think the problem with remote leveling is due to seniors intentionally holding onto knowledge. I do see some senior employees try to hold ownership of a specific area of their work for apparently selfish reasons, but they're a minority. I've spent a lot of time talking with other seniors (and juniors!) about ways to make sure we're spending time working with mixes of skill levels, but it's a hard problem. Just advertising that you're available to help if anyone needs anything does basically nothing to encourage most juniors to ask. It takes a lot of juniors a long time to lose inhibitions for asking for help, and I think people can often make it to senior levels without learning how to be proactive about offering help. It does seem easier for most people to ask for help in person. I think one of the causes of this is because even in this field, most people don't grow up doing so much communication and socialization purely using crude text and video calling which have remained mostly unchanged since the 80s or 90s. Most people handle in-person socialization much better, and can read and express cues more naturally there, especially in a work environment. Also, those communication methods have a degree of formality attached to them which feels like a barrier. Personally, I think it might help a bit if telework software would take more cues from video games (proximity-based chat and virtual environments with rooms and doors). There are some programs for this, but the few I've tried haven't been polished enough to use. The few I've used though did seem to make impromptu collaboration easier, but of course there could have been many reasons for that (e.g. novelty).

batch12 2y ago

It also creates new opportunities for employees who enjoy or don't mind working from an office that may not have otherwise been available.

jmclnx 2y ago

I believe,at least in IT, once you get to a certain age, promotions are really meaningless, especially in large companies. So I think if you are young and you want to be on management track, you probably should go in.

hmmm-i-wonder 2y ago
In any job, once compensation is no longer significant (i.e. close to retirement, reached savings goals etc) then promotions are meaningless sure. But in most fields, IT included, compensation range is linked to role. For most people that means 50-80% of your career promotions and compensation are linked and meaningful. But after some stage when life goals are reached and you're in end of career planning, I agree promotions are largely meaningless to many people (outside of those who's self-image is tied up with their role and job). Ultimately I don't see IT being especially different from any other field here, what is it in IT you see influencing that?
- smugma 2y ago
  In large tech companies, you might reach a terminal rank (ic5-6) before you’re 40. Total comp might be 400-500k, which is great but you’ve still got 10-20 years to retirement (Bay Area and Tahoe homes are expensive and if you enjoy your job you might not want to retire at 50). So there may not be another promotion, and that’s freeing. You can focus on professional development free of concerns for looking good but grow in ways of interest to you.
  - hmmm-i-wonder 2y ago
    Is that really unique to IT? Small to medium companies, academic and govt IT jobs will typically never reach those income levels. I think the Avg software dev salary in the US is around 77k, so a lot of the IT field has to make a lot less. I agree in large tech companies that absolutely exists, but I also see it in legal, medical and some other professions that a subset of them can reach similar income levels. (250k+ by mid to late 30's, 400k+ if in Bay or similar CoL area). Its a nice reality when you can be ~40 and have the freedom to retire whenever you want, but its not one I see as common for the majority of tech workers.

blitzar 2y ago

It completely ignores how much senoir employees struggle with WFH. Without an office there is very little opportunity for senior employees to casually look to see how hard junior employees are staring at their monitor to determine the depth and quality of their work. Instead they have to look at the actual work produced and try to understand it well enough to not look like an idiot when they talk about it.

johnnyanmac 2y ago
>see how hard junior employees are staring at their monitor to determine the depth and quality of their work. I don't think any senior does this. Managers, yes. Maybe a few leads. But I know butt in seat doesn't correlate to amount of quality work. I've had days where everything is blank in my head and others where I did a week's work in a day. You can influence this somewhat by having a good environment, but the creative process doesn't work like blue collar work (despite many of our systems in office based on blue collar labor processes).
armada651 2y ago
> Without an office there is very little opportunity for senior employees to casually look to see how hard junior employees are staring at their monitor to determine the depth and quality of their work. You probably haven't been in the office for a long time if you think all people did there was sit and stare at their monitors all day. > Instead they have to look at the actual work produced and try to understand it well enough to not look like an idiot when they talk about it. Unfortunately not every junior employee has a manager that will champion the value of their work to their peers for them. Junior employees will often have to do that themselves and that's much easier to do in a casual setting during lunch or over drinks than having to schedule a zoom call.

disambiguation 2y ago

juniors are getting hired in this market?