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This article doesn't mention people who don't enjoy WFH because of the unification of the workplace and home. Personally I hated that I can never "leave" work a

This article doesn't mention people who don't enjoy WFH because of the unification of the workplace and home. Personally I hated that I can never "leave" work and it's always with me at home. Also not everyone can afford an office room to "close out" work to a separate physical place (which is a typical reply when this topic brought up) and I don't even think it counts. I personally like working in office because it's where I work, and then I go home and that's my home. I don't work at home at all (and it's a company policy everyone knows that). But I live in Europe, work is a 30 min bicycle drive from home which I also enjoy. Considering it's an irish news site I'm surprised that was not mentioned.

stringsandchars 2y ago
[flagged]
- tazjin 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - throwaway8481 2y ago
    I've struggled with ending my shift and mentally checking out of work. However, I wouldn't impose going back to the office on others who can do this effectively. I think the comment is about maintaining a work-from-some-office-space capability.
  - kkfx 2y ago
    Well, as the others have to realize the same. RTO meaning IMPOSING all return to the office, so imposing the will of some on all. WFH does not means imposing the end of the office if so many want it and they want something doable. I have my wills, of course, some are doable, some are not. I really want to be immortal, never fell ill, find a large plethora of sex-hungry partners and so on, these are just few examples of not really doable personal will. If the office can economically survive because it does work it will, if the slice of those who want WFH is big enough to kill the office that's how democracy works. I do like WFH, I do not pretend imposing others the same, as long as others do not pretend imposing me the office. Of course I observe issues and strong points in both models, so the future will be decided by the majority anyway. We will see, knowing that any imposition tend to last less and less as more and more it's imposing and impacting people life.
- Kichererbsen 2y ago
  "poor self-discipline" is quite the judgy statement to make dude.
  - stringsandchars 2y ago
    > "poor self-discipline" is quite the judgy statement to make dude. I certainly didn't think it was so extreme that it needed to be flagged. I simply find it an incredible concept that a person needs to physically leave a building before they can mentally adjust to "being at work"/"not being at work". I don't have a special 'office space' in my home environment. Over the years I've intentionally trained myself to not need anything other than my laptop to program on. In this way _even before the pandemic_ I was able to work under a tree in the park, at a café, on a train, at home or even (the most noisy and distracting place) at the office. Admittedly, when at the office I also needed noise-cancelling headphones - along with every single other programmer employed there because of the constant distraction of people talking, managers making personal phone calls, sales high-fiving each other, and so on.
    - OrderlyTiamat 2y ago
      > Admittedly, when at the office I also needed noise-cancelling headphones - along with every single other programmer employed there because of the constant distraction of people talking, managers making personal phone calls, sales high-fiving each other, and so on. Don't you think someone could say to you that those headphones are expensive and unneccesary, and that this problem simply reflects your lack of work focus? Wouldn't that be offputting and annoying if someone were to say that to you?
      - stringsandchars 2y ago
        > Wouldn't that be offputting and annoying if someone were to say that to you? There's a very emotionally-loaded tone to this discussion, which I don't think was an element in my original comment. I was struck by the fact that some people seem unable to change their mental state just because they're at an "office" or at "home". This is totally different to the fact that an open-plan office (all I've ever experienced before the pandemic) is a noisy and disruptive environment, with people talking loudly, making phonecalls, playing ping-pong, eating, and often dogs running around and barking.
- alistairSH 2y ago
  FWIW, when I stared WFH during COVID, I struggled with the home/work split initially. It took a dedicated space to get back to “normal”. It was just too easy to look at Slack when I went into the kitchen (my first work space). Now that I have a desk is in a spare bedroom, that’s better. But, I’m lucky enough to have a home with 2 extra rooms for work (spouse uses the other). And lucky enough to walk a mile to the office, which I prefer. I’m not an extrovert, but still find it nice to see other people during the day.
komali2 2y ago
> I don't work at home at all (and it's a company policy everyone knows that) I believe this is a somewhat unique privilege. It seems many people have the worse of both worlds you mentioned: unification of the workplace and home, and needing to go to the office anyway.
- ewgfdgdfgdf 2y ago
  Don't start calling the absence of abusive employer practices a "privilege". It should be a "right".
leni536 2y ago
I appreciate that a barrier is desirable for WFH, but that can be established without having a dedicated physical space for that. A separate work computer that is shut down at 5pm (or whenever you "leave" work) and not having company chat/email on your personal phone could go a long way. Having said that this has to go hand-in-hand with company work culture and no expectation that you are available for work throughout the entire day.
- jaketheguy 2y ago
  There's another side to this: not being able to leave home to work. I, and many of my work colleagues, have small child or children and not enough rooms to dedicate one purely to work. I have my space and my wife does everything she can to help me, but it's really hard to argue with 10 month old child that wants to be held for a few minutes. Due to this, my productivity at home is nowhere near the productivity at the office. I do appreciate the possibility to work from home (I'm actually at my "home office" right now), but I use it as a last resort, not my default mode. As for the space, some people don't have enough of it to replicate the "designed to work" tools at home. At my office, I have a large eraseable board behind me, printers, fast coffee machines, sometimes lunch is provided, easy access to people for "quick question" (chat/email doesn't have the same responsiveness), not to mention two huge screens and way more comfortable chair than I can fit in my home space. If my company will pay me to replicate this environment (which would have to include bigger place), I'll happily move to WFH for as much as possible. At the same time I recognize the different preferences regarding WFH and I don't want my colleagues to be the victims of "some people prefer to use the desk at work so everyone needs to RTO". I personally advocate for individual approach, because I can see that many of my colleagues work better from home - overly social office space for them isn't really better than their comfortable home.
  - leni536 2y ago
    > I have my space and my wife does everything she can to help me, but it's really hard to argue with 10 month old child that wants to be held for a few minutes. I am sure this is both a positive and a negative. Being available at home while your 10 month old child is at home must be great, and even if it's frustrating when you have to break away from work to hold him/her, this must be great for bonding. There must be a reason that you still work from home, and not, say, from a nearby coffee shop. I am (or was) also in your shoes recently, WFH with a small child at home. She's almost 2 now, still isn't in nursery. I would say that we are very lucky that we can do this and I have no regrets that I am not going into the office to be more productive and potentially earn more. Sure, I do also have the luxury of having a small dedicated office space in the house though, I appreciate that not everyone can have that, and without it it probably doesn't work while a small child stays at home too.
keiferski 2y ago
Yeah I really don’t like working at home. The best situation IMO is a separate workspace that’s within a 5-10 minute walk, preferably with a cafe or some kind of public space en route.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  The problem is not liking or not working at home. The problem is being forced to work in an office if it doesn't fit you and other jobs allow you to stay at home. And the impact it has on corps ability to retain those workers. I know I have received a number of offers for work with higher salary in the last 2 years with forced hybrid work from office/home[1] but I won't accept any of that. At least until my youngest daughter is out of primary school. I don't mind going to the office once in a while, or even everyday if it is 5-20 minutes from home (as long as I keep possibility to work from home if a particular need comes). But I will refuse one that forces me to burn co2 for no value, that add stress to my day (commuting by vehicle) or that takes me more than 20 minutes by bicycle or public transport as long as I can find a decent one that doesn't force me to do that. My partner's doesn't work from a computer so she will have priority in our place of living for the foreseeable future.
  - keiferski 2y ago
    I agree and I do support companies that allow WFH, as it allows for the situation I mentioned - via coworking in my case. But I was replying to the idea of working at home specifically.
closewith 2y ago
This is less of a concern in Ireland due to the Organisation of Working Time Directive and the Right to Disconnect. Most large employers will be at pains to ensure you stop working outside your normal work hours. In general, cycling infrastructure is poor in Ireland and public transport is dire unless you happen to live in specific parts of Dublin, Galway or Cork. Added to the EU's worst housing crisis and highest cost of childcare and remote work is extremely popular here. A deal-breaker for many.
anonzzzies 2y ago
I guess this article is about good quality workers who don’t want to go (back) to the office. I have seldom been in an office (30 years career) and I wouldn’t, at any price.
croes 2y ago
>This article doesn't mention people who don't enjoy WFH because of the unification of the workplace and home Maybe because companies seldom try to force people to work from home.
- vmfunction 2y ago
  Except for when that big o' pandemic that just happened couple years back.
  - nkrisc 2y ago
    Yes, it was quite an exceptional thing indeed.
  - croes 2y ago
    Therefore the "seldom" Myself wasn't forced, I had already discussed this with my supervisor beforehand.
xchip 2y ago
That's because you have the wrong mindset. And the more beliefs you have like this, the more complicated your life will be.
gwd 2y ago
For reasons I won't get into, after the pandemic our local office ended up with desks for 75% or so of the employees. So if you wanted to come in, you reserved a desk, if you wanted to stay at home, that was fine. Then the diktat came down from corporate headquarters: Everyone must be back in the office, unless their contract specifically said remote work. Pitchforks! Loads of objection from all the people who had gotten used to working from home and quite liked it. And of course there was the problem that we didn't actually have space for everyone. Then an opportunity came up to get rid of our sub-lease on the current property, which could potentially simplify the process of getting a newer, larger office that could accommodate everyone; so word went out that everyone was going to go back to WFH for a period of time. Pitchforks again! This time from all the people who didn't enjoy WFH for all the reasons you mentioned. In the end corporate has had to be satisfied with people coming in at least one day a week; and we're squeezing more people into the current office while still looking for another office to move into. But it's interesting to see the dynamics you mentioned -- lots of people prefer to WFH, lots of people definitely don't. FWIW I've never had much trouble "turning off" work, even when I was using the same computer for work and personal things. Now that I've got a corporate laptop, it's even easier -- unplug it from the external monitor, close the lid, and forget about it until it's time to open it again, be that overnight or over the weekend or over the holidays.
- deleted 2y ago
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- darkwater 2y ago
  Amen to that. That's why the key is NOT FORCING RTO. If you want go to the office because reasons, do it. If you prefer WFH because reasons, do it. You are either a goal-oriented workplace, where this would be natural, or you are a classical "show me you are committed to work by being there many hours" place, where then it's just WFO.
- hmmm-i-wonder 2y ago
  I found WFH forced a level of personal growth and adaptation for me to handle this, but its growth that I would have definitely benefited from before. Previously while working in an office, I couldn't disconnect even when not home(on call, often called in while not on call to help). I ended up getting my own phone again to be able to leave work at home and go out to be able to disconnect, but mentally I never really did. Now I work from home and that additional always on pressure was amplified that much more, and made me face the fact I had horrible life balance mentally and needed to learn to properly disconnect and compartmentalize. Learning and practicing that has helped me in a lot of cases outside of work, and continues to help me with work. I can easily walk away from work and not think about it for hours/days even without guilt or significant struggles, something I couldn't do the decade before while working in an office. So for those that struggle to disconnect with WFH, I can empathize but strongly suggest through whichever means they prefer (self directed, therapy or otherwise) they take the opportunity to practice and learn disconnecting more. Even if ultimately one prefers the office learning to disconnect is, at least in my experience, a very healthy skill to build.
petesergeant 2y ago
I think from a utilitarian perspective, getting the minority who want to not work from home to find a cowork space or alternative solution is better than mandating working from the office. Won’t fit everyone, but neither does forcing everyone into the office.
- jowdones 2y ago
  In the end it's home office guys bending over and taking it up their ass from office loving fanboys or the other way around. I'd say to the office sickos go work something else, be a fishmonger or something that requires physical presence. Otherwise bend over and shut up.
soco 2y ago
The issue with this, and most of articles on the topic of WFH, is they fail to recognize that different people will have different preferences (the horror!) and different situations. They start by putting everybody in the same bucket whatever that is, then argument from there. Luckily smarter companies don't rely on journalists to decide that the best approach is "whatever floats your boat" and keep both options open no questions asked.
cess11 2y ago
It's always with you anyway. The contract and the labour relation is there always, even when you sleep. Whether you can shut it out of your conscious mind isn't necessarily about location, though I get that it might help. It's not obvious that you might want to either, many problems in software development require slow, sustained thinking over several days or weeks. What's important to me is to be able to stop people from work to contact me. And if I want to take a half hour stroll because the weather is nice and I enjoy it, I will, and I can stretch it out to an hour if I find something fun to sit and watch, like some birds or something. No one can stop me, and no one will question it, because the only reason they'll know is that I've told them that I was on such a nice little stroll and saw some baby geese the other day. Or played with my kids or went grocery shopping or whatever. To my employer and colleagues the important thing is that the work gets done, with clear communication about whether it'll be done on time and why it won't be if that's the case. We're all full remote, in part because the stuff we do require a fair bit of personal maturity and professional seniority, and with that comes kids, grandkids and long established hobbies and side projects.
AndyJames 2y ago
I work for a big, old-timey, international company. The current policy is WFH or from the office, whatever you like. Some managers have rules that their team members have to show up at the office 1-4 times a month. Our office can hold about 400 employees and this is about the number of employees that could technically commute every day. To my knowledge, there are about 20 people who commute to work daily. No one else is going there unless they have to. It's a very nice, freshly renovated office, with a lot of green plants inside, free coffee, height adjustable desks, ergonomic chairs, relaxation zones, lockers (so you don't have to take your stuff to work every day), etc. located in the city center that is well connected via buses. trams and subway. You can even drive a car to work if you want. And still given that option only about 5% of employees decided to work there daily. People like you exist and their needs have to be filled however most people, if given a chance they'll prefer WFH.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  I think this is a possible conclusion you could draw, but not the only one. The value of going to the office is the other people. If no one's there, then it's the same as working from home (you need Zoom for all your calls, even if half of you are next to each other) so if more than about 5% of people are remote, it semi-forces everyone else to be, even if they'd prefer to be working with people as a local team.
  - AndyJames 2y ago
    Maybe that would bump the people willing to go to the office by another 5-10% but every once in a while we have days when multiple teams happen to be in the office on the same day, and at least half of the desks are occupied. Despite having half of the office dedicated as "the focus zone", most people don't really work or like to work on those days. There are much more meetings, and casual chit-chat but an actual output of "work products" is close to none.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      > There are much more meetings, and casual chit-chat but an actual output of "work products" is close to none. To me that implies that something that is fairly needed is missing by being remote. I think being a distributed factory outputting "work products" might be a net negative, but I could be wrong.
kkfx 2y ago
Well, this is honestly a sign of self-discipline and maybe accommodation issue. I WFH and I have "an office" (a room) and "the home" (the rest). So I know when I enter the office and when I leave. The office have it's desk/softphones, who do not ring outside etc. I live in EU too, but I left the big dense city for the mountains to have such setup. Of course many are still "panicked" since if they leave the city they fear it would be hard to came back if the WFH end, but this is not really an issue in practical terms, it's a psychological issue: people MUST understand where we are, where we going and decide, no one have a working crystal ball but certain changes are moderately easy to predict and reasonably certain. Here the choice is between take the risk meaning potentially having a big prize or a big loss, or not take the risk and being SURE to suffer a significant loss. Economically the office model is untenable: we have large, big buildings to "live", normally used less than half a day, "empty" for most of the days of the year, and others big as well used just less than half a day, "empty" for most of the days of the year as well. The rest of the time spent "commuting", it's an absurd way to keep people moving to get them "motivated" to work instead of the contrary. In the past there was no alternatives, remote work was limited technically, now is like convincing people that a horse is better than a car, he can go in much more places, he can reproduce itself, he eat grass around the world and produce free fertilizer for crops. Oh, all it's true, but we also all know why cars win. WFH is a key of a social change not only for remote worker but for ALL: we know an enormous amount of people will have to relocate due to climate change and human crisis, this alone is an enormous issue. Being able to move keeping our work means opening a way to move to others who do not WFH for the material needs like fill a cavity or buy groceries of the WFH cohort. Similarly WFH we can move where we need to be for climatic, productive needs, it's a needed flexibility in a changing world. WFH also push semi-autonomy witch is another big need because in a changing world we will experience more and more service disruptions and we need to keep living with them. A home can now have p.v. and lithium storage in most part of the world enough to keep a big of appliance working, can have water storage for a week to a month and so on. We can live well even with intermittent services and being able to do so means we are still productive and those who handle services have more slack to evolve them as well. Consider that EU density and propensity of many EU country for dense cities" https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Distribution_of_population_by_dwelling_type,_2018_(%25)_SILC20.png https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... is a big part of our current crisis. Irish people live most in homes, only 10.6% are in apartments, but Spain, Germany, Italy are the opposite, and that's why they suffer already and they'll suffer MUCH more in the near future being unable to implement the Green New Deal for most.
0xAFFFF 2y ago
It's perfectly fine to not enjoy WFH, the point of the article here is forcing an option onto employees instead of giving them the choice.
siva7 2y ago
> "I personally like working in office because it's where I work, and then I go home and that's my home. " Well, that's not how IT nowadays works. On the assembly line, sure. But modern IT professionals usually take their "work" with them. I remember the times we had desktop computers and work really stayed in the office when we left, but the default in 2024 is laptop/mobile workplace.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  That's true (and for valid reasons, e.g. saving on insurance/security at the office), but that doesn't mean you don't get to have a work/life boundary. There's a EU directive (or there will be) colloquially called the right to disconnect: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/topics/en/article/20210121STO96103/parliament-wants-to-ensure-the-right-to-disconnect-from-work https://www.europarl.europa.eu/topics/en/article/20210121STO...
- PobedaRossia 2y ago
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- PartiallyTyped 2y ago
  We have lockers at work, and I leave the laptop there. It's a simple decision that a) forces me to go to the office every day on foot, b) allows me to separate work and home, and c) allows me to unwind while I walk home from work.
  - siva7 2y ago
    This is a good Idea. Unfortuntely, most people, especially yonger colleagues, don't have the money to buy a separate laptop und usually use the work laptop for private use.
    - suddenclarity 2y ago
      My previous laptop was a $180 Thinkpad that stayed with me for five years. The claim that _most_ IT workers can't afford that and are forced to do their private stuff on a company computer sounds preposterous.
globular-toast 2y ago
There's more to this than just work from home vs work from office. I did a PhD and felt similarly: I couldn't ever "leave" work. Home was work. My desk at the university was work. When I finished and started a real job I was indeed relieved that I could come home and, for once, not be working. But it was never about the location of my body. During my PhD, my head was work. I had nothing else in my life. I couldn't escape work because it was my entire life. When I returned to working from home (during the pandemic) I couldn't believe how unproductive I'd been for the past several years of working in an office. I would finish a day and think "wow, I haven't been this productive since my PhD". This has made me happier than ever. The difference is, unlike during my PhD, I have other things in my life now. It doesn't matter where my desk is. When I decide to "finish work" at the end of the day, my partner is normally home. When I'm with her I'm not working. If I decide to continue studying at my desk I'm not working. If I go out and do some exercise or walk by myself I'm not working. I was incredibly stressed during my PhD. I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to complete and lived with impostor syndrome the whole time. Nowadays I have a much more balanced relationship with work. This is something you should strive for too, and then you might find the scales tip in favour of working from home, like me.
- eleveriven 2y ago
  Yeah, for me it is still important to distinguish the space
tarsinge 2y ago
This shows why it's important to accommodate both and not impose one way or another. Like for me this unification is exactly what I'm enjoying. I can never "leave", but I never have to "go" either. Not perfect but as an introvert still a better situation. Also not everyone in Europe live at less than a 30min bicycle drive. Why must it always be 100% one or another?
disgruntledphd2 2y ago
> Considering it's an irish news site I'm surprised that was not mentioned. Ireland is part of the Anglosphere, and suffers from many of the same developmental issues (long commutes, houses in the middle of nowhere, poor public transport) that plague other English speaking countries. That's presumably why they didn't mention it.
koonsolo 2y ago
I was exactly looking for this in the article, couldn't find it, and therefore just ignored the whole thing. Either you paint a truthful realistic picture, or you pick some political side. I'm not interested in the 2nd one. I work 1 day at the office, and that's my ideal setup, maybe 2 would be better but I don't work fulltime. I have colleagues that after the pandemic "Don't want to work a single day at home during their lives". These guys were locked up alone in their apartment during covid and absolutely hated it. I get it. For me, if I stay weeks at home, it works on my mood and energy. Humans are social animals, with maybe a very few exceptions. Also a European perspective.
- koonsolo 2y ago
  Funny how I'm getting downvoted. Some people really don't like the truth that some people prefer working in the office.
rojeee 2y ago
When I was living in London after COVID, at first, I didn't enjoy it. I still came into the office but when no-one else was there I realised "what's the point?". The office was exposed as the dull/boring/clinical place it's always been. The people I found going into the office were either those who were young and lived close by and somewhat used work as a social club, or those with nothing else better to do (also me at the time!). Anyone with a family was not there. Meanwhile, I've continuted to work remotely and I moved to the Cotswolds. I swapped a Victorian terrace for a much bigger detatched Cotswold cottage. I have a big garden, a glorious wild flower meadow and sheep grazing adjacent to the garden. There's no traffic on the roads and the nearby countryside is amazing. London is a veritable shithole in comparison. Getting a train to London is like travelling to a different - worse - country. If I still lived in London and commuted to the office, I would never see my young kids. I'd be out the door by 7:30 and back by 7ish. It would also put a lot more stress on my wife, as she would have to do everything during the day. I'd also get about 30 mins or so a day with my kids. That's terrible. Now, I can play with my kids until 9am and then start work. I finish at 5:30pm and get 2 hours with them before bed. I can also go running during the day. Switching off isn't really a problem for me because well... work is work. It pays the bills. So I'm quite happy to shut my laptop and forget about it. We had a cabin built in the garden, so my new commute is about 1 minute down the garden to the "shed" during which time I miraciously forget I even have a job in the first place when returning "home". I don't have any work apps on my phone for obvious reasons. I appreciate that's not the same for everyone though. Regarding cost of commute We've had it drilled into us over the years (gaslighted, even) that it is acceptable for us to spend hours of our day commuting to work and for us to bear the financial burden. Why should that be the case? I used to spend £10 a day on the commute. Commuting 200 days a year, that's £2,000 of my salary I need to spend on just getting to work. For others it is much more. That's absurd but it's just the monetary cost. The opportunity cost in terms of MY time is huge. It's about 2 weeks of the year sitting on a horrid underground train. I realise, you can do things on the train but I guess my point is that being on a train limits you from doing other things like playing with kids or doing some gardening. When recruiters have been getting in touch about new roles I make it clear up front that if said company wants me to routinely attend the office they must pay me for commuting time and the commute cost, otherwise it's a "no" from me. Some companies agree remote is acceptable in that case. I mean, I don't mind paying for the odd trip to the office but on a regular cadence and if it's expected (part of contract), then they must pay. Also, let's not forget the environmental impact of all this mostly pointless travel to work every day for knowledge workers. How much less carbon would we emit if we stopped doing it? Judging by the dip in CO2 emissions during COVID, quite a bit.
larater 2y ago
I use to agree with this but I work remote and I can go to an office that is about a 15 minute drive away if I want. Once I got use to working remote the motivation to go into the office went away completely. I not only don't have a home office but I just switch the input to my monitor when I log off for the day. The song and dance of the office is just a total waste of time, space and money. It is just absurd this is even still a conversation.
xyst 2y ago
That’s _your_ preference. Yet that is forced/mandated to the rest of us.
- cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
  This is like the first panel on a galaxy brain meme. I can just as easily say that it’s absurd that you demand to only be communicated with through a bloody webcam that you won’t turn on half the time. Don’t play the one-sided victim card. If you can’t find it within yourself to see things from another perspective enough to get out of the mindset of you being the only one that’s hard done by, don’t bother contributing to the conversation.
fzeroracer 2y ago
I WFH in a small studio apartment where I have two separate spaces for work and for personal stuff. Shutting off from work for the weekend is as simple as turning off my work computer, covering it up and going about my day as normal. You definitely do not need a separate office space. It helps, but what's key is properly setting your own mental boundaries.
eleveriven 2y ago
> Personally I hated that I can never "leave" work and it's always with me at home. Same here. Was difficult to adapt to it

stringsandchars 2y ago

[flagged]

tazjin 2y ago
[flagged]
- throwaway8481 2y ago
  I've struggled with ending my shift and mentally checking out of work. However, I wouldn't impose going back to the office on others who can do this effectively. I think the comment is about maintaining a work-from-some-office-space capability.
- kkfx 2y ago
  Well, as the others have to realize the same. RTO meaning IMPOSING all return to the office, so imposing the will of some on all. WFH does not means imposing the end of the office if so many want it and they want something doable. I have my wills, of course, some are doable, some are not. I really want to be immortal, never fell ill, find a large plethora of sex-hungry partners and so on, these are just few examples of not really doable personal will. If the office can economically survive because it does work it will, if the slice of those who want WFH is big enough to kill the office that's how democracy works. I do like WFH, I do not pretend imposing others the same, as long as others do not pretend imposing me the office. Of course I observe issues and strong points in both models, so the future will be decided by the majority anyway. We will see, knowing that any imposition tend to last less and less as more and more it's imposing and impacting people life.
Kichererbsen 2y ago
"poor self-discipline" is quite the judgy statement to make dude.
- stringsandchars 2y ago
  > "poor self-discipline" is quite the judgy statement to make dude. I certainly didn't think it was so extreme that it needed to be flagged. I simply find it an incredible concept that a person needs to physically leave a building before they can mentally adjust to "being at work"/"not being at work". I don't have a special 'office space' in my home environment. Over the years I've intentionally trained myself to not need anything other than my laptop to program on. In this way _even before the pandemic_ I was able to work under a tree in the park, at a café, on a train, at home or even (the most noisy and distracting place) at the office. Admittedly, when at the office I also needed noise-cancelling headphones - along with every single other programmer employed there because of the constant distraction of people talking, managers making personal phone calls, sales high-fiving each other, and so on.
  - OrderlyTiamat 2y ago
    > Admittedly, when at the office I also needed noise-cancelling headphones - along with every single other programmer employed there because of the constant distraction of people talking, managers making personal phone calls, sales high-fiving each other, and so on. Don't you think someone could say to you that those headphones are expensive and unneccesary, and that this problem simply reflects your lack of work focus? Wouldn't that be offputting and annoying if someone were to say that to you?
    - stringsandchars 2y ago
      > Wouldn't that be offputting and annoying if someone were to say that to you? There's a very emotionally-loaded tone to this discussion, which I don't think was an element in my original comment. I was struck by the fact that some people seem unable to change their mental state just because they're at an "office" or at "home". This is totally different to the fact that an open-plan office (all I've ever experienced before the pandemic) is a noisy and disruptive environment, with people talking loudly, making phonecalls, playing ping-pong, eating, and often dogs running around and barking.
alistairSH 2y ago
FWIW, when I stared WFH during COVID, I struggled with the home/work split initially. It took a dedicated space to get back to “normal”. It was just too easy to look at Slack when I went into the kitchen (my first work space). Now that I have a desk is in a spare bedroom, that’s better. But, I’m lucky enough to have a home with 2 extra rooms for work (spouse uses the other). And lucky enough to walk a mile to the office, which I prefer. I’m not an extrovert, but still find it nice to see other people during the day.

komali2 2y ago

> I don't work at home at all (and it's a company policy everyone knows that) I believe this is a somewhat unique privilege. It seems many people have the worse of both worlds you mentioned: unification of the workplace and home, and needing to go to the office anyway.

ewgfdgdfgdf 2y ago
Don't start calling the absence of abusive employer practices a "privilege". It should be a "right".

leni536 2y ago

I appreciate that a barrier is desirable for WFH, but that can be established without having a dedicated physical space for that. A separate work computer that is shut down at 5pm (or whenever you "leave" work) and not having company chat/email on your personal phone could go a long way. Having said that this has to go hand-in-hand with company work culture and no expectation that you are available for work throughout the entire day.

jaketheguy 2y ago
There's another side to this: not being able to leave home to work. I, and many of my work colleagues, have small child or children and not enough rooms to dedicate one purely to work. I have my space and my wife does everything she can to help me, but it's really hard to argue with 10 month old child that wants to be held for a few minutes. Due to this, my productivity at home is nowhere near the productivity at the office. I do appreciate the possibility to work from home (I'm actually at my "home office" right now), but I use it as a last resort, not my default mode. As for the space, some people don't have enough of it to replicate the "designed to work" tools at home. At my office, I have a large eraseable board behind me, printers, fast coffee machines, sometimes lunch is provided, easy access to people for "quick question" (chat/email doesn't have the same responsiveness), not to mention two huge screens and way more comfortable chair than I can fit in my home space. If my company will pay me to replicate this environment (which would have to include bigger place), I'll happily move to WFH for as much as possible. At the same time I recognize the different preferences regarding WFH and I don't want my colleagues to be the victims of "some people prefer to use the desk at work so everyone needs to RTO". I personally advocate for individual approach, because I can see that many of my colleagues work better from home - overly social office space for them isn't really better than their comfortable home.
- leni536 2y ago
  > I have my space and my wife does everything she can to help me, but it's really hard to argue with 10 month old child that wants to be held for a few minutes. I am sure this is both a positive and a negative. Being available at home while your 10 month old child is at home must be great, and even if it's frustrating when you have to break away from work to hold him/her, this must be great for bonding. There must be a reason that you still work from home, and not, say, from a nearby coffee shop. I am (or was) also in your shoes recently, WFH with a small child at home. She's almost 2 now, still isn't in nursery. I would say that we are very lucky that we can do this and I have no regrets that I am not going into the office to be more productive and potentially earn more. Sure, I do also have the luxury of having a small dedicated office space in the house though, I appreciate that not everyone can have that, and without it it probably doesn't work while a small child stays at home too.

keiferski 2y ago

Yeah I really don’t like working at home. The best situation IMO is a separate workspace that’s within a 5-10 minute walk, preferably with a cafe or some kind of public space en route.

prmoustache 2y ago
The problem is not liking or not working at home. The problem is being forced to work in an office if it doesn't fit you and other jobs allow you to stay at home. And the impact it has on corps ability to retain those workers. I know I have received a number of offers for work with higher salary in the last 2 years with forced hybrid work from office/home[1] but I won't accept any of that. At least until my youngest daughter is out of primary school. I don't mind going to the office once in a while, or even everyday if it is 5-20 minutes from home (as long as I keep possibility to work from home if a particular need comes). But I will refuse one that forces me to burn co2 for no value, that add stress to my day (commuting by vehicle) or that takes me more than 20 minutes by bicycle or public transport as long as I can find a decent one that doesn't force me to do that. My partner's doesn't work from a computer so she will have priority in our place of living for the foreseeable future.
- keiferski 2y ago
  I agree and I do support companies that allow WFH, as it allows for the situation I mentioned - via coworking in my case. But I was replying to the idea of working at home specifically.

closewith 2y ago

This is less of a concern in Ireland due to the Organisation of Working Time Directive and the Right to Disconnect. Most large employers will be at pains to ensure you stop working outside your normal work hours. In general, cycling infrastructure is poor in Ireland and public transport is dire unless you happen to live in specific parts of Dublin, Galway or Cork. Added to the EU's worst housing crisis and highest cost of childcare and remote work is extremely popular here. A deal-breaker for many.

anonzzzies 2y ago

I guess this article is about good quality workers who don’t want to go (back) to the office. I have seldom been in an office (30 years career) and I wouldn’t, at any price.

croes 2y ago

>This article doesn't mention people who don't enjoy WFH because of the unification of the workplace and home Maybe because companies seldom try to force people to work from home.

vmfunction 2y ago
Except for when that big o' pandemic that just happened couple years back.
- nkrisc 2y ago
  Yes, it was quite an exceptional thing indeed.
- croes 2y ago
  Therefore the "seldom" Myself wasn't forced, I had already discussed this with my supervisor beforehand.

xchip 2y ago

That's because you have the wrong mindset. And the more beliefs you have like this, the more complicated your life will be.

gwd 2y ago

For reasons I won't get into, after the pandemic our local office ended up with desks for 75% or so of the employees. So if you wanted to come in, you reserved a desk, if you wanted to stay at home, that was fine. Then the diktat came down from corporate headquarters: Everyone must be back in the office, unless their contract specifically said remote work. Pitchforks! Loads of objection from all the people who had gotten used to working from home and quite liked it. And of course there was the problem that we didn't actually have space for everyone. Then an opportunity came up to get rid of our sub-lease on the current property, which could potentially simplify the process of getting a newer, larger office that could accommodate everyone; so word went out that everyone was going to go back to WFH for a period of time. Pitchforks again! This time from all the people who didn't enjoy WFH for all the reasons you mentioned. In the end corporate has had to be satisfied with people coming in at least one day a week; and we're squeezing more people into the current office while still looking for another office to move into. But it's interesting to see the dynamics you mentioned -- lots of people prefer to WFH, lots of people definitely don't. FWIW I've never had much trouble "turning off" work, even when I was using the same computer for work and personal things. Now that I've got a corporate laptop, it's even easier -- unplug it from the external monitor, close the lid, and forget about it until it's time to open it again, be that overnight or over the weekend or over the holidays.

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darkwater 2y ago
Amen to that. That's why the key is NOT FORCING RTO. If you want go to the office because reasons, do it. If you prefer WFH because reasons, do it. You are either a goal-oriented workplace, where this would be natural, or you are a classical "show me you are committed to work by being there many hours" place, where then it's just WFO.
hmmm-i-wonder 2y ago
I found WFH forced a level of personal growth and adaptation for me to handle this, but its growth that I would have definitely benefited from before. Previously while working in an office, I couldn't disconnect even when not home(on call, often called in while not on call to help). I ended up getting my own phone again to be able to leave work at home and go out to be able to disconnect, but mentally I never really did. Now I work from home and that additional always on pressure was amplified that much more, and made me face the fact I had horrible life balance mentally and needed to learn to properly disconnect and compartmentalize. Learning and practicing that has helped me in a lot of cases outside of work, and continues to help me with work. I can easily walk away from work and not think about it for hours/days even without guilt or significant struggles, something I couldn't do the decade before while working in an office. So for those that struggle to disconnect with WFH, I can empathize but strongly suggest through whichever means they prefer (self directed, therapy or otherwise) they take the opportunity to practice and learn disconnecting more. Even if ultimately one prefers the office learning to disconnect is, at least in my experience, a very healthy skill to build.

petesergeant 2y ago

I think from a utilitarian perspective, getting the minority who want to not work from home to find a cowork space or alternative solution is better than mandating working from the office. Won’t fit everyone, but neither does forcing everyone into the office.

jowdones 2y ago
In the end it's home office guys bending over and taking it up their ass from office loving fanboys or the other way around. I'd say to the office sickos go work something else, be a fishmonger or something that requires physical presence. Otherwise bend over and shut up.

soco 2y ago

The issue with this, and most of articles on the topic of WFH, is they fail to recognize that different people will have different preferences (the horror!) and different situations. They start by putting everybody in the same bucket whatever that is, then argument from there. Luckily smarter companies don't rely on journalists to decide that the best approach is "whatever floats your boat" and keep both options open no questions asked.

cess11 2y ago

It's always with you anyway. The contract and the labour relation is there always, even when you sleep. Whether you can shut it out of your conscious mind isn't necessarily about location, though I get that it might help. It's not obvious that you might want to either, many problems in software development require slow, sustained thinking over several days or weeks. What's important to me is to be able to stop people from work to contact me. And if I want to take a half hour stroll because the weather is nice and I enjoy it, I will, and I can stretch it out to an hour if I find something fun to sit and watch, like some birds or something. No one can stop me, and no one will question it, because the only reason they'll know is that I've told them that I was on such a nice little stroll and saw some baby geese the other day. Or played with my kids or went grocery shopping or whatever. To my employer and colleagues the important thing is that the work gets done, with clear communication about whether it'll be done on time and why it won't be if that's the case. We're all full remote, in part because the stuff we do require a fair bit of personal maturity and professional seniority, and with that comes kids, grandkids and long established hobbies and side projects.

AndyJames 2y ago

I work for a big, old-timey, international company. The current policy is WFH or from the office, whatever you like. Some managers have rules that their team members have to show up at the office 1-4 times a month. Our office can hold about 400 employees and this is about the number of employees that could technically commute every day. To my knowledge, there are about 20 people who commute to work daily. No one else is going there unless they have to. It's a very nice, freshly renovated office, with a lot of green plants inside, free coffee, height adjustable desks, ergonomic chairs, relaxation zones, lockers (so you don't have to take your stuff to work every day), etc. located in the city center that is well connected via buses. trams and subway. You can even drive a car to work if you want. And still given that option only about 5% of employees decided to work there daily. People like you exist and their needs have to be filled however most people, if given a chance they'll prefer WFH.

robertlagrant 2y ago
I think this is a possible conclusion you could draw, but not the only one. The value of going to the office is the other people. If no one's there, then it's the same as working from home (you need Zoom for all your calls, even if half of you are next to each other) so if more than about 5% of people are remote, it semi-forces everyone else to be, even if they'd prefer to be working with people as a local team.
- AndyJames 2y ago
  Maybe that would bump the people willing to go to the office by another 5-10% but every once in a while we have days when multiple teams happen to be in the office on the same day, and at least half of the desks are occupied. Despite having half of the office dedicated as "the focus zone", most people don't really work or like to work on those days. There are much more meetings, and casual chit-chat but an actual output of "work products" is close to none.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    > There are much more meetings, and casual chit-chat but an actual output of "work products" is close to none. To me that implies that something that is fairly needed is missing by being remote. I think being a distributed factory outputting "work products" might be a net negative, but I could be wrong.

kkfx 2y ago

Well, this is honestly a sign of self-discipline and maybe accommodation issue. I WFH and I have "an office" (a room) and "the home" (the rest). So I know when I enter the office and when I leave. The office have it's desk/softphones, who do not ring outside etc. I live in EU too, but I left the big dense city for the mountains to have such setup. Of course many are still "panicked" since if they leave the city they fear it would be hard to came back if the WFH end, but this is not really an issue in practical terms, it's a psychological issue: people MUST understand where we are, where we going and decide, no one have a working crystal ball but certain changes are moderately easy to predict and reasonably certain. Here the choice is between take the risk meaning potentially having a big prize or a big loss, or not take the risk and being SURE to suffer a significant loss. Economically the office model is untenable: we have large, big buildings to "live", normally used less than half a day, "empty" for most of the days of the year, and others big as well used just less than half a day, "empty" for most of the days of the year as well. The rest of the time spent "commuting", it's an absurd way to keep people moving to get them "motivated" to work instead of the contrary. In the past there was no alternatives, remote work was limited technically, now is like convincing people that a horse is better than a car, he can go in much more places, he can reproduce itself, he eat grass around the world and produce free fertilizer for crops. Oh, all it's true, but we also all know why cars win. WFH is a key of a social change not only for remote worker but for ALL: we know an enormous amount of people will have to relocate due to climate change and human crisis, this alone is an enormous issue. Being able to move keeping our work means opening a way to move to others who do not WFH for the material needs like fill a cavity or buy groceries of the WFH cohort. Similarly WFH we can move where we need to be for climatic, productive needs, it's a needed flexibility in a changing world. WFH also push semi-autonomy witch is another big need because in a changing world we will experience more and more service disruptions and we need to keep living with them. A home can now have p.v. and lithium storage in most part of the world enough to keep a big of appliance working, can have water storage for a week to a month and so on. We can live well even with intermittent services and being able to do so means we are still productive and those who handle services have more slack to evolve them as well. Consider that EU density and propensity of many EU country for dense cities" https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Distribution_of_population_by_dwelling_type,_2018_(%25)_SILC20.png https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... is a big part of our current crisis. Irish people live most in homes, only 10.6% are in apartments, but Spain, Germany, Italy are the opposite, and that's why they suffer already and they'll suffer MUCH more in the near future being unable to implement the Green New Deal for most.

0xAFFFF 2y ago

It's perfectly fine to not enjoy WFH, the point of the article here is forcing an option onto employees instead of giving them the choice.

siva7 2y ago

> "I personally like working in office because it's where I work, and then I go home and that's my home. " Well, that's not how IT nowadays works. On the assembly line, sure. But modern IT professionals usually take their "work" with them. I remember the times we had desktop computers and work really stayed in the office when we left, but the default in 2024 is laptop/mobile workplace.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago
That's true (and for valid reasons, e.g. saving on insurance/security at the office), but that doesn't mean you don't get to have a work/life boundary. There's a EU directive (or there will be) colloquially called the right to disconnect: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/topics/en/article/20210121STO96103/parliament-wants-to-ensure-the-right-to-disconnect-from-work https://www.europarl.europa.eu/topics/en/article/20210121STO...
PobedaRossia 2y ago
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PartiallyTyped 2y ago
We have lockers at work, and I leave the laptop there. It's a simple decision that a) forces me to go to the office every day on foot, b) allows me to separate work and home, and c) allows me to unwind while I walk home from work.
- siva7 2y ago
  This is a good Idea. Unfortuntely, most people, especially yonger colleagues, don't have the money to buy a separate laptop und usually use the work laptop for private use.
  - suddenclarity 2y ago
    My previous laptop was a $180 Thinkpad that stayed with me for five years. The claim that _most_ IT workers can't afford that and are forced to do their private stuff on a company computer sounds preposterous.

globular-toast 2y ago

There's more to this than just work from home vs work from office. I did a PhD and felt similarly: I couldn't ever "leave" work. Home was work. My desk at the university was work. When I finished and started a real job I was indeed relieved that I could come home and, for once, not be working. But it was never about the location of my body. During my PhD, my head was work. I had nothing else in my life. I couldn't escape work because it was my entire life. When I returned to working from home (during the pandemic) I couldn't believe how unproductive I'd been for the past several years of working in an office. I would finish a day and think "wow, I haven't been this productive since my PhD". This has made me happier than ever. The difference is, unlike during my PhD, I have other things in my life now. It doesn't matter where my desk is. When I decide to "finish work" at the end of the day, my partner is normally home. When I'm with her I'm not working. If I decide to continue studying at my desk I'm not working. If I go out and do some exercise or walk by myself I'm not working. I was incredibly stressed during my PhD. I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to complete and lived with impostor syndrome the whole time. Nowadays I have a much more balanced relationship with work. This is something you should strive for too, and then you might find the scales tip in favour of working from home, like me.

eleveriven 2y ago
Yeah, for me it is still important to distinguish the space

tarsinge 2y ago

This shows why it's important to accommodate both and not impose one way or another. Like for me this unification is exactly what I'm enjoying. I can never "leave", but I never have to "go" either. Not perfect but as an introvert still a better situation. Also not everyone in Europe live at less than a 30min bicycle drive. Why must it always be 100% one or another?

disgruntledphd2 2y ago

> Considering it's an irish news site I'm surprised that was not mentioned. Ireland is part of the Anglosphere, and suffers from many of the same developmental issues (long commutes, houses in the middle of nowhere, poor public transport) that plague other English speaking countries. That's presumably why they didn't mention it.

koonsolo 2y ago

I was exactly looking for this in the article, couldn't find it, and therefore just ignored the whole thing. Either you paint a truthful realistic picture, or you pick some political side. I'm not interested in the 2nd one. I work 1 day at the office, and that's my ideal setup, maybe 2 would be better but I don't work fulltime. I have colleagues that after the pandemic "Don't want to work a single day at home during their lives". These guys were locked up alone in their apartment during covid and absolutely hated it. I get it. For me, if I stay weeks at home, it works on my mood and energy. Humans are social animals, with maybe a very few exceptions. Also a European perspective.

koonsolo 2y ago
Funny how I'm getting downvoted. Some people really don't like the truth that some people prefer working in the office.

rojeee 2y ago

When I was living in London after COVID, at first, I didn't enjoy it. I still came into the office but when no-one else was there I realised "what's the point?". The office was exposed as the dull/boring/clinical place it's always been. The people I found going into the office were either those who were young and lived close by and somewhat used work as a social club, or those with nothing else better to do (also me at the time!). Anyone with a family was not there. Meanwhile, I've continuted to work remotely and I moved to the Cotswolds. I swapped a Victorian terrace for a much bigger detatched Cotswold cottage. I have a big garden, a glorious wild flower meadow and sheep grazing adjacent to the garden. There's no traffic on the roads and the nearby countryside is amazing. London is a veritable shithole in comparison. Getting a train to London is like travelling to a different - worse - country. If I still lived in London and commuted to the office, I would never see my young kids. I'd be out the door by 7:30 and back by 7ish. It would also put a lot more stress on my wife, as she would have to do everything during the day. I'd also get about 30 mins or so a day with my kids. That's terrible. Now, I can play with my kids until 9am and then start work. I finish at 5:30pm and get 2 hours with them before bed. I can also go running during the day. Switching off isn't really a problem for me because well... work is work. It pays the bills. So I'm quite happy to shut my laptop and forget about it. We had a cabin built in the garden, so my new commute is about 1 minute down the garden to the "shed" during which time I miraciously forget I even have a job in the first place when returning "home". I don't have any work apps on my phone for obvious reasons. I appreciate that's not the same for everyone though. Regarding cost of commute We've had it drilled into us over the years (gaslighted, even) that it is acceptable for us to spend hours of our day commuting to work and for us to bear the financial burden. Why should that be the case? I used to spend £10 a day on the commute. Commuting 200 days a year, that's £2,000 of my salary I need to spend on just getting to work. For others it is much more. That's absurd but it's just the monetary cost. The opportunity cost in terms of MY time is huge. It's about 2 weeks of the year sitting on a horrid underground train. I realise, you can do things on the train but I guess my point is that being on a train limits you from doing other things like playing with kids or doing some gardening. When recruiters have been getting in touch about new roles I make it clear up front that if said company wants me to routinely attend the office they must pay me for commuting time and the commute cost, otherwise it's a "no" from me. Some companies agree remote is acceptable in that case. I mean, I don't mind paying for the odd trip to the office but on a regular cadence and if it's expected (part of contract), then they must pay. Also, let's not forget the environmental impact of all this mostly pointless travel to work every day for knowledge workers. How much less carbon would we emit if we stopped doing it? Judging by the dip in CO2 emissions during COVID, quite a bit.

larater 2y ago

I use to agree with this but I work remote and I can go to an office that is about a 15 minute drive away if I want. Once I got use to working remote the motivation to go into the office went away completely. I not only don't have a home office but I just switch the input to my monitor when I log off for the day. The song and dance of the office is just a total waste of time, space and money. It is just absurd this is even still a conversation.

xyst 2y ago

That’s _your_ preference. Yet that is forced/mandated to the rest of us.

cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
This is like the first panel on a galaxy brain meme. I can just as easily say that it’s absurd that you demand to only be communicated with through a bloody webcam that you won’t turn on half the time. Don’t play the one-sided victim card. If you can’t find it within yourself to see things from another perspective enough to get out of the mindset of you being the only one that’s hard done by, don’t bother contributing to the conversation.

fzeroracer 2y ago

I WFH in a small studio apartment where I have two separate spaces for work and for personal stuff. Shutting off from work for the weekend is as simple as turning off my work computer, covering it up and going about my day as normal. You definitely do not need a separate office space. It helps, but what's key is properly setting your own mental boundaries.

eleveriven 2y ago

> Personally I hated that I can never "leave" work and it's always with me at home. Same here. Was difficult to adapt to it