7 ms·
She Was 29. And Doctors Helped Her Die
- elektor 2y agoHere is a more nuanced, less preachy story of Zoraya ter Beek: https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/may/16/dutch-woman-euthanasia-approval-grounds-of-mental-suffering https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/may/16/dutc...
- xwowsersx 2y agoI found the FP piece to be rather anodyne. What aspect did you feel was preachy? The fact that the author told Zoraya that she "hoped she wouldn’t go through with her decision to kill herself"?
- MisterDizzy 2y agoWhy is MAID being pushed to begin with? I can't wrap my head around it.
- spoonjim 2y agoGovernments can use it to get rid of people who inconvenience the State
- tharmas 2y agoDon't know why u were downvoted (not by me) but this is a fact. I know someone who personally experienced this.
- Fauntleroy 2y agoCare to elaborate on this? It does seem quite pertinent to the conversation.
- tharmas 2y agoI know the person personally. They went into the hospital emergency with chest complaints. The person in question had no address and no relatives. The doctors there wouldn't admit him. They suggested he use MAID. Yes, they actually suggested it. Three weeks later he returned to the same hospital with a relative and they admitted him. He had heart failure. The doctors admitted they their mistake the first time and should have admitted him.
- tharmas 2y agoI got downvoted for this!? Wow, hacker news is almost as bad as reddit.
- blackoil 2y agoWhy go through long process involving conspiring with lawyers, doctors and judges? If govt wants it they can find hitman
- PartiallyTyped 2y agoEven hiring a hitman sounds too much work.
- spoonjim 2y agoBecause if someone gets popped in an alley that raises questions. Here it seems like a person's choice themselves so the government isn't blamed (even though they created the conditions for a mentally ill person to make an irreversible decision that saves money for the government)
- orwin 2y agoNo. People on the street or in squats die all the time in sketchy circumstances. I'm pretty sure its mostly coincidence (and skinheads/neonazi militia wanting to "train" and getting too rough for the poor alcoholic who didn't ask anything), but i the state wanted to lean on ""autodefense groups"" to get rid of a percentage of homeless, it easily could.
- tharmas 2y agoIn Canada, the medical system is overrun. If you're 50+, homeless and no relatives to look after you MAID is a handy way to get rid of you.
- silverquiet 2y agoWhat does personal autonomy mean if you are not able to make such a decision for yourself?
- skyyler 2y ago“That’s the beauty, because our law requires that doctors test that you’ve made a rational decision,” Zoraya replied. “Doctors have to test: Is my choice rational, or is it my illness talking?” Seems perfectly reasonable to me. The experience of going on a waitlist and not even knowing if you'll be approved, making backups for that eventuality... it paints a very vivid picture of someone at the end of their rope, trying to end the suffering. Other people in the thread are implying it's a mechanism for the state to cull undesirables and that feels like conspiracy theory stuff / media spin to me. The state already has plenty of tools to kill those it disagrees with, why would the slow and messy and disorganised medical system have to be part of it?
- silverquiet 2y ago[flagged]
- jimbob45 2y agoin the US that typically comes along with rather radical beliefs about the ability to own firearms which makes suicide rather trivial. There are a number of other levers the US pulls to make suicide particularly undesirable. State-sponsored suicide, like the article describes, would ruin the US' ability to pull those levers.
- Fauntleroy 2y agoDespite my own misgivings about American conservatism, I don't think it's correct or appropriate to suggest that they would prefer for suicidal people to shoot themselves.
- silverquiet 2y agoI didn't mean to suggest such a thing; what I mean is that if someone in the US wants to end their life, they can (and I'll skip any macabre details about how easy it is) do so very simply with a firearm - I believe it is the most successful method. I just find it rather dissonant that the belief that weapons should be so easily available pairs with a supposed respect for life.
- mrguyorama 2y agoHow is "it took 3 years to be allowed to have a doctor end my life, when I could have ended it at any time on my own volition without going through the legal process" it being "pushed"? How is "I went through most treatment options available and the law explicitly requires me to do so" it being "pushed"?
- janice1999 2y ago"Medically assisted deaths could save millions in health care spending: Report" (2017) https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/medically-assisted-death-could-save-millions-1.3947481 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/medically-assisted-d...
- banish-m4 2y agoThat's entirely the wrong reason to approach it.
- tejohnso 2y agoIt wasn't pushed. She actively sought it out.
- banish-m4 2y ago"Pushed"? Abortions and MAID are healthcare. If someone really doesn't want to live or is suffering greatly, it's a personal choice to choose to end one's life and no moralizing busy-body's business to wag their finger or deny someone's wishes.
- normalaccess 2y agoIt's amazing how slapping "healthcare" on something magically makes it immune to scrutiny. Need to restart eugenics? Sell it as a free pass to oblivion and prey on the less fortunate to fuel the fire. What ever happened to "Do No Harm"? Killing someone certainly qualifies as harm. You cannot heal through death. Harm /härm/ noun 1. Physical or psychological damage or injury. 2.Immoral or unjust effects.
- quantified 2y agoNow that this is veering to the abstract, are advance directives and DNR illegal? Must every ounce of medical effort be expended to extend life always?
- normalaccess 2y agoIt's Eugenics 2.0 - It comes back when society as a whole has mostly forgotten about it. The rich and powerful always seek to control the life and death of the "undesirables". At the moment it's a fun little ray of sunshine for the less fortunate to walk them to oblivion. Once people get used to the idea (even if they don't like it) that then they will really start turning the screws. Can't pay your bills? MAID. Can't walk? MAID. Can't pass a test at school? MAID. Anything that promotes death as a choice will eventually be corrupted and then abused. Before long we will be sacrificing virgins on an alter to have a plentiful harvest.
- quantified 2y agoAnd marrying goats. Don't forget that every change to mores leads to people marrying livestock.
- dredmorbius 2y agoFor those unfamiliar with the acronym: medical aid in dying. <https://www.elderlawanswers.com/what-is-maid-medical-aid-in-dying-20281 https://www.elderlawanswers.com/what-is-maid-medical-aid-in-...>
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 2y agoI think given certain premises which are widely accepted in the west, this is reasonable. 1. You are free to do with your body what you wish as long as you are not harming anyone else. You should not be compelled to do things with your body that you do not wish to do. Dieing in this controlled manner is not harming anyone else. It seems like a very personal choice. 2. Mental pain can be as great if not greater than physical pain. If we would accept the possibility of physician assisted suicide for incurable, severe physical pain, why would we not accept it for incurable, severe mental pain? I think the objections to this would mostly be of a religious nature, appealing to a higher purpose for your life, etc
- akira2501 2y agoYou are free to die. You are not free to help other people die. You are especially not free to run a business that helps other people die. There's an inherent moral conflict in this process.
- gwbas1c 2y ago> incurable, severe mental pain? For me, it hits a lot of cognitive dissonance. I respect others' rights to do what they want with their bodies and lives, but this is something that is hard to empathize with because I haven't experienced the kinds of feelings that Zoraya had.
- billforsternz 2y agoI am an atheist and don't object to physician assisted suicide in general but am at least troubled and perhaps outright opposed in the context of a 29 year old in perfect physical health. I am also very sceptical that mental pain can be as great if not greater than physical pain.
- silverquiet 2y ago> I am also very sceptical that mental pain can be as great if not greater than physical pain. I don't find it such an extraordinary claim, but if you do, perhaps you can consider the rather extraordinary evidence that this woman chose to die to escape her pain as proof that it may be possible.
- m_dupont 2y agoGood article, doesn't belong on hackernews.
- downvotetruth 2y agoPsych hack. She needed mental help, she got institutional murders.
- jemmyw 2y ago> She embarked on intensive treatments, including talking therapies, medication and more than 30 sessions of electroconvulsive therapy > After 10 years... She got mental help, and at the end she got assisted suicide.
- downvotetruth 2y agoWhat medical services she received obviously failed to be helpful. "assisted suicide" is an oxymoron.
- Novosell 2y agoDo you think we have magical cures for everything?
- downvotetruth 2y agoEven the very wise cannot know all ends.
- jemmyw 2y agoI'm not wise but I do know we'll all end
- tejohnso 2y agoShe was 29. And had a persistent wish to die. Even wore a DNR tag around her neck. She waited three years to finally get through all the requirements and be granted the assisted suicide. This person made a personal choice and fortunately lived in an area where that choice is respected and neither she, nor her family were at risk of criminalization for her decision. > “In the three and a half years this has taken, I’ve never hesitated about my decision. "
- KevinMS 2y agolooks to me like she preferred the drama to just jumping off a bridge and solving her problem.
- yawpitch 2y agoHuman much?
- KevinMS 2y agohow much suffering did she have to put people through around her for so many years?
- zingababba 2y agoI think killing yourself takes either more cowardliness or courage, depending on the situation, than perhaps she could muster. Dying on your couch, through lethal injection, at the age of 29, in a perfectly healthy physical body, while your loved ones look on, is in my mind the sign of a weak and forgettable person. Live meekly, I guess.
- happytoexplain 2y agoThe choice of the adjective "forgettable" crosses from plausibly genuine into low-quality territory. Regardless of my opinion on this specific case, the tendency toward petty insults (as opposed to understandable criticisms/emotions) about people who commit suicide is one of the more hideous among people's common faults.
- pizzafeelsright 2y agoWhy not leave them on the Salt Flats some thirty miles of distance to civilization with the time to think if life is worth living?
- hypeatei 2y agoThese stories always seem to attract the "but why would you want to kill yourself" comments. Some just cannot fathom a life that isn't enjoyable or worth living. People experience all types of suffering that doesn't get better and it's completely fine to "want out" in a dignified and safe way.
- ralph84 2y agoEven TFA has this sentiment: > I told Zoraya more than once that I understood her suffering, but hoped she wouldn’t go through with her decision to kill herself. Quite obviously the author didn’t understand or they wouldn’t have put the “but” clause there.
- tredre3 2y agoIt's possible to empathize with someone's pain but selfishly not want to lose the person. Emotions can be complex and contradictory. Unless the person you're quoting actively opposed Zoraya, I don't think it's a clear example of someone who can't fathom wanting to die.
- AIorNot 2y agohttps://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1d0xudy/physicallyhealthy_dutch_woman_zoraya_ter_beek/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1d0xudy/physicallyh... I read about this story, and the prevailing mood on the internet around her story (outside of religious folks) has been on of Empathy and support on her right to choose her own end, but also looking deeper, this woman had been diagnosed with BPD (borderline) and was fetishizing suicide and death for a long time. She had no physical ailments or pain, at 29, she was estranged from her mother but from accounts, lived with a supportive boyfriend and pets "Ter Beek has thought about her decision throughout the long process, which takes several years to complete. “In the three and a half years this has taken, I’ve never hesitated about my decision. I have felt guilt — I have a partner, family, friends and I’m not blind to their pain. And I’ve felt scared. But I’m absolutely determined to go through with it,” she said." I feel like the mental health community let this woman down, her family let her down, 3 years (considering she was NOT in physical pain or terminally ill) is NOT long enough for someone as young as 29. three years is nothing when it comes to a life. Its unsurprisingly common for young people to fetishize and glamorize suicide and looking at Euthanasia as a cure for her suffering. I also totally, agree that she should have not been harassed as she unfortunately was on social media, but Suicide is a permanent solution to a what is often a temporary problem, perhaps if she had the opportunity to change her environment, have the chance to see that much of life changes as one gets older..especially at 29.. if this was at 43 I might have felt different.. I support euthanasia but this case seems all wrong
- AndrewDucker 2y ago==== Over the course of a decade, she tried everything to relieve the symptoms of her mental illness—including, at last, 33 rounds of electroconvulsive therapy, where electric currents jolt the brain. Zoraya’s last treatment was in August 2020, after which she says her psychiatrist told her: “There’s nothing more we can do for you. It’s never going to get any better.” ==== She spent a decade doing absolutely everything they could think of, including electroconvulsive therapy. Is ten years long enough for you? What else should she do in order to satisfy you?
- hackeraccount 2y ago
- polotics 2y agoThis is sickAF, in my humble opinion: depression is curable. Is it too early in the year to mention the movie "Soylent Green" ?
- banish-m4 2y agoNo. Treatment resistant depression is real and incurable, neurological problems that cannot be overcome exist. And there are other pain, suffering (post stroke), and unresolvable conditions like a lifelong spouse dying reasons to seek a hastier end.
- kkfx 2y agoFor me Habeas Corpus is mandatory in any civilization. I respect ANY personal choice on own body and life, like I hope anyone respect mine. There is no religion or law that can get in the middle.