6 ms·

Microsoft should accept and give up Windows 11, throw everything at Windows 12

27 points by keploy 2y ago

ano-ther 2y ago
Why is it that MS only gets every second version of Windows right? Vista, 8 and 11 were all a step back for usability and stability, while 7 and 10 were solid with a decent user interface. Perhaps they just get bored with something that’s working well, and start tinkering (“Let’s move the WLAN control 2 layers removed from the system tray and also make”, “The Explorer context menu has too much stuff for power users”).
- Suppafly 2y ago
  They always try to introduce visual changes to the GUI before they introduce the underlying OS changes that support those visual changes. Vista was essentially XP with the GUI for Windows 7, Windows 8 was essentially the Windows 10 GUI with the Windows 7 OS, etc. 11 is just 10 with broken GUI updates, 12 will be the finalized version of the 11 GUI with the actual underlying OS updated as well.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Vista was Longhorn redone with COM instead of .NET, after the whole internal drama from pro C++ folks, after Sinofsky took over. Window 8 was .NET redone by the same folks, as the original idea from Ext-VOS, COM getting IInspectable, in addition to IUnknown, while Type Libraries replaced by .NET metadata. Windows 10 was the reunification of WinRT programming models across devices.
  - dist-epoch 2y ago
    You got it completely wrong. There were massive changes in Vista, new audio stack, new default permissions, new USB stack, new networking stack, new graphics stack, which caused tons of compatibility problems.
    - senderista 2y ago
      Indeed, and this is underestimated (esp. security improvements). But let's face it, some of it was just half-baked at release. Source: I was there
    - Suppafly 2y ago
      I may be wrong in some of the specifics, but the truth still is that every other version is half-baked OS changes with the main selling point to consumers being the upgraded GUI changes, while the actual working OS comes as the next version.
  - jborean93 2y ago
    While yes they did introduce GUI changes they also introduced a lot more fundamental changes. Typically the second release is seen as better because it's usually a refined version or at least the changes had more time to perculate. For example Vista introduced many things that changed the fundamental nature of Windows, UAC (split tokens, integrity levels, etc), new audio stack, overhaul of IPv6, new display driver model. A lot of these new driver changes and the extra hardware requirements caused a lot of issues whereas when 7 came out the requirements were no longer as burdomsome and manufacturers had more time to release better drivers. Windows 8 introduced UWP silos, new startup process, Hyper-V as a client. 8.1 and 10 were definitely more iterations on the GUI and other features to make it a bit more palatable.
- underlipton 2y ago
  I liked 8 more than 10. The wonky interface was preferable to the ridiculous, unavoidable Windows Update regime and telemetry. I halfway believe that they make every other release bad on purpose, in order to make the poison pill of the next one easier to swallow (post Vista->7, when they realized that this was a viable strategy).
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  Windows 10 is still a steaming pile of shit. Just because the start menu eventually started to bring all of you applications and they made 11 even less performant and more intrusive it does not make 10 any "good".
- JohnFen 2y ago
  I wouldn't call Win 10 a "good" release. It's just not as horrible as Win 8. It didn't even meet the level that the likes of Win 7 achieved.
  - timw4mail 2y ago
    I kind of miss Windows 7 visually. Even if it was just a polished version of Vista.
- jemmyw 2y ago
  Windows 9 was their best effort. Minimal interface, it really got out of your way.
- hulitu 2y ago
  > Why is it that MS only gets every second version of Windows right? Right ? It is actually more like "less wrong".
chirau 2y ago
When is 12 supposed to come out?
- keploy 2y ago
  June 2024 is what I read! https://www.laptopmag.com/news/windows-12 https://www.laptopmag.com/news/windows-12
keploy 2y ago
Or just roll it back to Windows 10, stick to that promise that it was the final version, and cut out all this nonsense. Most folks don’t wanna swap out their hardware just to get Windows 11, deal with those ads, or the super snoopy AI that digs through their data. And nobody's sitting around hoping Microsoft's gonna drop something even sketchier.
- bigbinary 2y ago
  I wish they would stick to one version and just stack up additional features and fix existing UI crap. It feels like the only reason to keep adding major versions is to half-ass some major UI rework before giving up because their new UI doesn’t have feature parity with the old one. Feels like we’ll have three control panels soon enough at this rate.
- vel0city 2y ago
  > stick to that promise that it was the final version That was never an official promise. It was one developer advocate making an off-hand comment in a breakout session which had a topic of designing Live Tiles.
bigbinary 2y ago
It’s clear that Microsoft’s iterations on Windows aren’t working, and their management of windows needs to be reworked. At a certain point the constant “stop improving existing version and start the next one” has to be seen as silly by upper management, right? Is there any business benefit to constantly updating major Windows versions that I’m not seeing?
- Drakim 2y ago
  > Is there any business benefit to constantly updating major Windows versions that I’m not seeing? Uhm, yes, they are making people pay for a new copy?
  - skeeter2020 2y ago
    Not too many people "buy" a retail copy of Windows; you either pay for it as part of your computer, or it's included as part of an enterprise plan. They'd get all that revenue without pushing a new major version.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  > any business benefit Ahh, but does that mean benefit to corporate entity, or does it mean benefits to managers/executives that are seeking promotions/compensation? :p
- havblue 2y ago
  They're stuck trying to figure out how to monetize a product that people don't want a subscription for. Their only choice is to keep releasing new versions with different features (or sneak in advertising) and hope people keep buying in. Unfortunately, people haven't really wanted a new version of Windows since it switched to the NT kernel. So it seems like every new version is a lose lose scenario.
- chaorace 2y ago
  > Is there any business benefit to constantly updating major Windows versions that I’m not seeing? Well sure! Remember that whole kerfuffle over Windows 11 requiring TPM? A new major version means new hardware requirements and new hardware requirements mean new vendor obligations. It's their silver-bullet solution for whenever hardware vendors get uppity.
IvyMike 2y ago
This is my only real issue with Windows 11: > There’s also the fact that the OS has been forcing ads as "recommendations" into the Start menu and has even begun testing promotional recommendation pages that take up your whole screen, urging users to make Edge the default browser and installing or enabling other services. The worst part is that there’s no way to fully opt out of these ads, which accomplish nothing but clog up the UI with constant notifications. If Microsoft wanted to drop that, they could do so instantly. But apparently MS values the ad revenue more than they do the trust in their system, and going to Windows 12 won't magically change MS's mind.
- ryandvm 2y ago
  Windows 11 feels like the kind of OS you would get if it were free (ad supported). Ironically, the actually free OSes are much less cluttered and much more stable.
  - throwanem 2y ago
    Wait, they still expect people to pay for Windows? I thought the whole play now was giving that away as a loss leader for the services that actually make money. Granted, I haven't paid attention to Windows since about 2020, when a brief flirtation with an OEM copy of Windows 10 turned me off the platform permanently. So maybe this is just me being out of touch - although, if they are still charging money for it, maybe not as out of touch as Microsoft's product leadership.
    - wmf 2y ago
      Microsoft doesn't charge for Windows upgrades any more but OEMs definitely pay for Windows.
- skeeter2020 2y ago
  it's not just this tiny place though; their desire to force "stuff" everywhere - by default - widgets on the lock screen, things on the taskbar and system tray, useless apps you cannot uninstall, repeated nagging to change default apps for specific documents to the lame MS ones (Q: has anyone ever done this after changing it to their desired application?), having to opt-out and try and turn off things that add no value for the user... I've used windows my entire professional life and when my current win10 system (which easily runs triple-A games and deep development) is EOL'd because it "can't run windows 11" I think I hold my nose and switch to a Mac.
NullPrefix 2y ago
Wasn't windows 10 supposed to be the last version of windows? I kinda recall a big marketing campaign saying just that
- astrodust 2y ago
  Windows 12: Farewell Tour
- vel0city 2y ago
  > I kinda recall a big marketing campaign saying just that You recall a bunch of publications saying that, but not an official statement from Microsoft. It was all conjecture based on one comment one person made during one breakout session at one developer conference.
  - cjk2 2y ago
    Yeah and no. It was Jerry Nixon, speaking at a Microsoft conference on behalf of MSFT as a Microsoft employee, not on person opinion. He said that Windows 10 was the last numbered version of windows directly. Gartner did some faff around it and editoralised that into it being the last version of windows. Subtle difference.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      Jerry Nixon is one person, correct? Or is Jerry Nixon multiple people and also the official spokesperson for Windows? What other conferences did he speak at making that statement? What other official correspondence did Microsoft make stating it was the last version of Windows? What part of my comment falls under the "no"? It was one guy (a Microsoft employee) stating one time at one conference speaking to a completely unrelated topic (Live Tiles). You think Jerry Nixon, a developer evangelist, was the kind of person authorized to make such a statement of "Windows 10 will be the last version of Windows" while giving a presentation on Live Tiles? If a developer evangelist was giving a talk about bringing Clippy back to Word and how you can add your own prompts and they made the statement of "we're discontinuing Xbox", would you take that as an official statement of Microsoft's intentions?
NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
Has anyone else had this problem with Win 11? Tried to log in this morning, but it rejects my password and opens a warning dialog that says: > Please verify that you are NoMoreNicksLeft by saying "Doritos™ Dew™ it right!" I think it must've updated over the long weekend.
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 2y ago
  Did you run out of verification cans? 7-11 not open to buy more?
racl101 2y ago
Maybe throw less crap.
ffhhj 2y ago
> Windows 11 plummeted to a 25.69% market share after it reached an all-time high of 28.16% back in February 2024. Meanwhile, Windows 10 has risen to over 70% market share during the same period 1980's: we all wanted personal computers 1990's: we all wanted the Internet 2000's: we all wanted social networks 2010's: we all wanted mobile devices 2020's: we just want to get rid of shitty search and AI surveillance
- anthk 2y ago
  Well, actually 1984-5: Big corpos, banks and so badly needs IBM PC's for everything. Every big serious office gets computerized. 1993-4: We want PCs for everyone -> Windows 95 and the Multimedia PCs with MSOffice, CD Players and so. 2003-4: Internet for everyone -> Flat rate broadband and P2P plus IM changues everything. 2013-4: Social media for everyone -> Everyone got its smartphone.
- CatWChainsaw 2y ago
  Best version from my experience. Local accounts, minimal telemetry for years, run your updates on your schedule instead of Microsoft's. A computer that was actually yours and not a data pipe. Make Windows Seven Again.
Seanambers 2y ago
When Win10 support winds down, I am unsure if I will even bother to continue to use it. MS has shit the bag so to speak with every version since Windows 7.
- skeeter2020 2y ago
  This is exactly how I feel, so fatigued from fighting the Microsoft BS of "making windows like it was before the last update". If you're going to make me buy new hardware to go to 11 I'll have to seriously consider buying a Mac
  - timw4mail 2y ago
    How many more hoops do I have to jump through to get my desktop like Windows 98 in this version of Windows?
Grimeton 2y ago
Windows 10 is the maximum intrusion people are willing to take. That's all there is. If Microsoft isn't going to stop this, I wonder where we end up. As this is an OS that billions of people rely on. I can already see a lot of people using outdated versions w/o support just to avoid espionage hell.
- ragnese 2y ago
  > Windows 10 is the maximum intrusion people are willing to take. Statistically, 100% of people are willing to take exactly what they get when they buy a new computer. With the same precision of rounding, 0% of people are going to dig into settings to see if they can turn off something that they find annoying- usually because they're afraid of breaking something. People literally buy smart TVs that play ads when they aren't even watching anything (or it's been paused for a few minutes).
  - Grimeton 2y ago
    A lot of stuff cannot be turned off in the home editions and even some stuff cannot be disabled in the professional or enterprise editions. Microsoft is adding more and more espionage to its OS knowing all to well that whole countries cannot just switch easily away from it. I hope that this triggers what is needed for people and companies to move over to open source software like FreeBSD.
- WheatMillington 2y ago
  >Windows 10 is the maximum intrusion people are willing to take. HN commenters have a habbit of massively overestimating how important this is to normal users.
  - Grimeton 2y ago
    The level of espionage has been dialed up in many products like TVs, phones, Windows and so on over time. So more and more people are becoming aware and realize they don't want to be spied on. So it's becoming more and more an issue of public interest. So at least one commenter on HN underestimates how important this has already and will become in the future for normal users.
qwerty456127 2y ago
Ideally Microsoft should just stop forcing bullshit and keep doing Windows the classic way. The value of Windows is in what it is, not in what it "can become".
- watermelon0 2y ago
  Value for Microsoft or end users? I'm sure that classic way was better for end users, but that might not be true from their perspective.
  - qwerty456127 2y ago
    Well, in case they want something new they should probably build something new rather than try "sitting on both chairs" (the rich valuable legacy and destructively new modern vision) with one product. But we know they will probably fail if they try because nobody really needs anything new from them.
chaorace 2y ago
Today's Windows 12 is tomorrow's Windows 11. Even if the teams change, the environment that produced the current team will remain -- it was game over the moment Windows OS fell from money maker to cost-center. With that being said, what kind of change would "save" Windows? From an organizational perspective, a spin-off would be most effective... albeit the least likely. If we take that off the table, the next best thing would be to retool the product so that it scales better for such an unwieldy organization. I'm talking a new kernel that's compact and totally modular... but good luck dealing with that can of worms. It all circles back to Microsoft as a corporate entity -- what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.
- rickydroll 2y ago
  or... put all their energy into making Wine a fully functional replacement for windows. W12 = Wine + your favorite distribution. (Yeah, yeah, like wayland, it's never going to happen but I can dream, can't I)
- pjmlp 2y ago
  The end goal now seems to have Azure as Azure OS kind of thing. And it isn't only Windows, notice the whole drama regarding XBox hardware.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
makach 2y ago
*off topic Some parts of the window are absolutely well done and excellently polished and implemented - and there are some killer features and applications which makes it an amazing platform. however - I don't know how much longer I can balance my privacy against this functionality, and it is a struggle in the workplace as well, where management seems to appreciate the functionality to restrict, constrain and monitor their users.
ivraatiems 2y ago
A big reason that nobody is switching to Windows 11 is because Microsoft actively makes it impossible for most consumers to do so. They're trying to force you to buy new hardware by obsoleting the vast, vast majority of Windows 10 machines - even though those machines are completely capable of running Windows 11! If they simply allowed people on older devices to install Windows 11, those usage numbers would double or triple basically overnight. I don't think most non-HN people care about spying, but they also don't care enough about having the latest version of Windows to buy a whole new computer. I can't imagine why Microsoft thought they would. The big question is what happens when Windows 10 support ends, about a year and a half from now. Microsoft will basically be creating one of the biggest security disasters of all time by no longer providing updates for Windows 10 to keep it secure. It's hard to believe they'll do that, but all signs point to it. Support ending is not going to convince people to start throwing out perfectly functional computers.
- JohnTHaller 2y ago
  Microsoft is doing about what Apple does except more as a one time thing. 7th Gen Intel chips launched in early 2016. These machines will lose support for Windows 10 in October 2025. Most Macs are supported about 5 years for full OS updates and about 2 more years of security updates though this all varies a bit OS to OS version. As an example, when macOS 12 (Monterey) reaches end of life in a few months, MacBook Pro pre-2017, MacBook Air pre-2018, iMac pre-2017, and Mac Mini pre-2018 will all be unsupported and no longer receive security updates.
- nonillion 2y ago
  While preparing to help my family I found the official way to bypass the artificial minimum requirements to upgrade from 10 to 11: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/ways-to-install-windows-11-e0edbbfb-cfc5-4011-868b-2ce77ac7c70e https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/ways-to-install-... Registry Key: HKEY_LOCAL MACHINE\SYSTEM\Setup\MoSetup Name: AllowUpgradesWithUnsupportedTPMOrCPU Type: REG_DWORD Value: 1
  - hulitu 2y ago
    Why would you want to upgrade ?/s
ein0p 2y ago
They should really buy Ubuntu and shut down Windows entirely. Then release a compat layer for Windows software and sell the enterprise add-ons on top. Linux won.
worik 2y ago
Let me correct that headline Microsoft should accept that it's time to give up on Windows
bsnnkv 2y ago
Windows 11 and WSL2 is pretty much the best development environment experience around right now in my books. Being in the Windows ecosystem lets me benefit from that crazy backwards compat and support for mainstream software, windows-rs lets me customize a batteries-included DE[1] without having to touch JS, and on the WSL2 side of things I can run NixOS for all of my regular development needs. It's very sad and frustrating to see Microsoft, despite all of this, trying to make the operating system as un-useable as possible in all the ways mentioned in this article and in other comments. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLz3eqQDufw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLz3eqQDufw
JohnFen 2y ago
> The biggest reason to make the move to Windows 11 is possibly Microsoft Copilot Personally, I think that's one of the several big reasons to avoid Win 11.
_hao 2y ago
If you un-fuck Win 11 (shout out to O&O ShutUp10++ which should be mandatory for any user), PowerToys and WSL it's _probably_ the best dev environment you can get. Even so, the trajectory is not great. I wonder where the point of resistance will be for the normal user, but then again probably it doesn't matter. Normal users won't go to Linux. It's either Mac or Windows. As a Dev (and company owner) I would pay for a stripped out version of Windows Pro that contains only the stuff I need for dev and nothing else. No AI crap, no spyware and forced updates crap etc.
- jolux 2y ago
  I much prefer Macs for development and have for more than ten years at this point.
CatWChainsaw 2y ago
While I don't think Windows 12 could be mandatory OS as a service at this time, I wouldn't be surprised if Windows 14 is.
ripply 2y ago
It’s funny peering into the windows cosmos after leaving it when things started to get bad. To me it seems like a bunch of tech people disillusioned with their OS grasping at straws hoping Microsoft rights the course knowing full well it will never happen, RIP Windows I for one am glad you are dead.

27 points by keploy 2y ago

Why is it that MS only gets every second version of Windows right? Vista, 8 and 11 were all a step back for usability and stability, while 7 and 10 were solid with a decent user interface. Perhaps they just get bored with something that’s working well, and start tinkering (“Let’s move the WLAN control 2 layers removed from the system tray and also make”, “The Explorer context menu has too much stuff for power users”).

Suppafly 2y ago
They always try to introduce visual changes to the GUI before they introduce the underlying OS changes that support those visual changes. Vista was essentially XP with the GUI for Windows 7, Windows 8 was essentially the Windows 10 GUI with the Windows 7 OS, etc. 11 is just 10 with broken GUI updates, 12 will be the finalized version of the 11 GUI with the actual underlying OS updated as well.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Vista was Longhorn redone with COM instead of .NET, after the whole internal drama from pro C++ folks, after Sinofsky took over. Window 8 was .NET redone by the same folks, as the original idea from Ext-VOS, COM getting IInspectable, in addition to IUnknown, while Type Libraries replaced by .NET metadata. Windows 10 was the reunification of WinRT programming models across devices.
- dist-epoch 2y ago
  You got it completely wrong. There were massive changes in Vista, new audio stack, new default permissions, new USB stack, new networking stack, new graphics stack, which caused tons of compatibility problems.
  - senderista 2y ago
    Indeed, and this is underestimated (esp. security improvements). But let's face it, some of it was just half-baked at release. Source: I was there
  - Suppafly 2y ago
    I may be wrong in some of the specifics, but the truth still is that every other version is half-baked OS changes with the main selling point to consumers being the upgraded GUI changes, while the actual working OS comes as the next version.
- jborean93 2y ago
  While yes they did introduce GUI changes they also introduced a lot more fundamental changes. Typically the second release is seen as better because it's usually a refined version or at least the changes had more time to perculate. For example Vista introduced many things that changed the fundamental nature of Windows, UAC (split tokens, integrity levels, etc), new audio stack, overhaul of IPv6, new display driver model. A lot of these new driver changes and the extra hardware requirements caused a lot of issues whereas when 7 came out the requirements were no longer as burdomsome and manufacturers had more time to release better drivers. Windows 8 introduced UWP silos, new startup process, Hyper-V as a client. 8.1 and 10 were definitely more iterations on the GUI and other features to make it a bit more palatable.
underlipton 2y ago
I liked 8 more than 10. The wonky interface was preferable to the ridiculous, unavoidable Windows Update regime and telemetry. I halfway believe that they make every other release bad on purpose, in order to make the poison pill of the next one easier to swallow (post Vista->7, when they realized that this was a viable strategy).
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
marcosdumay 2y ago
Windows 10 is still a steaming pile of shit. Just because the start menu eventually started to bring all of you applications and they made 11 even less performant and more intrusive it does not make 10 any "good".
JohnFen 2y ago
I wouldn't call Win 10 a "good" release. It's just not as horrible as Win 8. It didn't even meet the level that the likes of Win 7 achieved.
- timw4mail 2y ago
  I kind of miss Windows 7 visually. Even if it was just a polished version of Vista.
jemmyw 2y ago
Windows 9 was their best effort. Minimal interface, it really got out of your way.
hulitu 2y ago
> Why is it that MS only gets every second version of Windows right? Right ? It is actually more like "less wrong".

chirau 2y ago

When is 12 supposed to come out?

keploy 2y ago
June 2024 is what I read! https://www.laptopmag.com/news/windows-12 https://www.laptopmag.com/news/windows-12

keploy 2y ago

Or just roll it back to Windows 10, stick to that promise that it was the final version, and cut out all this nonsense. Most folks don’t wanna swap out their hardware just to get Windows 11, deal with those ads, or the super snoopy AI that digs through their data. And nobody's sitting around hoping Microsoft's gonna drop something even sketchier.

bigbinary 2y ago
I wish they would stick to one version and just stack up additional features and fix existing UI crap. It feels like the only reason to keep adding major versions is to half-ass some major UI rework before giving up because their new UI doesn’t have feature parity with the old one. Feels like we’ll have three control panels soon enough at this rate.
vel0city 2y ago
> stick to that promise that it was the final version That was never an official promise. It was one developer advocate making an off-hand comment in a breakout session which had a topic of designing Live Tiles.

bigbinary 2y ago

It’s clear that Microsoft’s iterations on Windows aren’t working, and their management of windows needs to be reworked. At a certain point the constant “stop improving existing version and start the next one” has to be seen as silly by upper management, right? Is there any business benefit to constantly updating major Windows versions that I’m not seeing?

Drakim 2y ago
> Is there any business benefit to constantly updating major Windows versions that I’m not seeing? Uhm, yes, they are making people pay for a new copy?
- skeeter2020 2y ago
  Not too many people "buy" a retail copy of Windows; you either pay for it as part of your computer, or it's included as part of an enterprise plan. They'd get all that revenue without pushing a new major version.
Terr_ 2y ago
> any business benefit Ahh, but does that mean benefit to corporate entity, or does it mean benefits to managers/executives that are seeking promotions/compensation? :p
havblue 2y ago
They're stuck trying to figure out how to monetize a product that people don't want a subscription for. Their only choice is to keep releasing new versions with different features (or sneak in advertising) and hope people keep buying in. Unfortunately, people haven't really wanted a new version of Windows since it switched to the NT kernel. So it seems like every new version is a lose lose scenario.
chaorace 2y ago
> Is there any business benefit to constantly updating major Windows versions that I’m not seeing? Well sure! Remember that whole kerfuffle over Windows 11 requiring TPM? A new major version means new hardware requirements and new hardware requirements mean new vendor obligations. It's their silver-bullet solution for whenever hardware vendors get uppity.

IvyMike 2y ago

This is my only real issue with Windows 11: > There’s also the fact that the OS has been forcing ads as "recommendations" into the Start menu and has even begun testing promotional recommendation pages that take up your whole screen, urging users to make Edge the default browser and installing or enabling other services. The worst part is that there’s no way to fully opt out of these ads, which accomplish nothing but clog up the UI with constant notifications. If Microsoft wanted to drop that, they could do so instantly. But apparently MS values the ad revenue more than they do the trust in their system, and going to Windows 12 won't magically change MS's mind.

ryandvm 2y ago
Windows 11 feels like the kind of OS you would get if it were free (ad supported). Ironically, the actually free OSes are much less cluttered and much more stable.
- throwanem 2y ago
  Wait, they still expect people to pay for Windows? I thought the whole play now was giving that away as a loss leader for the services that actually make money. Granted, I haven't paid attention to Windows since about 2020, when a brief flirtation with an OEM copy of Windows 10 turned me off the platform permanently. So maybe this is just me being out of touch - although, if they are still charging money for it, maybe not as out of touch as Microsoft's product leadership.
  - wmf 2y ago
    Microsoft doesn't charge for Windows upgrades any more but OEMs definitely pay for Windows.
skeeter2020 2y ago
it's not just this tiny place though; their desire to force "stuff" everywhere - by default - widgets on the lock screen, things on the taskbar and system tray, useless apps you cannot uninstall, repeated nagging to change default apps for specific documents to the lame MS ones (Q: has anyone ever done this after changing it to their desired application?), having to opt-out and try and turn off things that add no value for the user... I've used windows my entire professional life and when my current win10 system (which easily runs triple-A games and deep development) is EOL'd because it "can't run windows 11" I think I hold my nose and switch to a Mac.

NullPrefix 2y ago

Wasn't windows 10 supposed to be the last version of windows? I kinda recall a big marketing campaign saying just that

astrodust 2y ago
Windows 12: Farewell Tour
vel0city 2y ago
> I kinda recall a big marketing campaign saying just that You recall a bunch of publications saying that, but not an official statement from Microsoft. It was all conjecture based on one comment one person made during one breakout session at one developer conference.
- cjk2 2y ago
  Yeah and no. It was Jerry Nixon, speaking at a Microsoft conference on behalf of MSFT as a Microsoft employee, not on person opinion. He said that Windows 10 was the last numbered version of windows directly. Gartner did some faff around it and editoralised that into it being the last version of windows. Subtle difference.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    Jerry Nixon is one person, correct? Or is Jerry Nixon multiple people and also the official spokesperson for Windows? What other conferences did he speak at making that statement? What other official correspondence did Microsoft make stating it was the last version of Windows? What part of my comment falls under the "no"? It was one guy (a Microsoft employee) stating one time at one conference speaking to a completely unrelated topic (Live Tiles). You think Jerry Nixon, a developer evangelist, was the kind of person authorized to make such a statement of "Windows 10 will be the last version of Windows" while giving a presentation on Live Tiles? If a developer evangelist was giving a talk about bringing Clippy back to Word and how you can add your own prompts and they made the statement of "we're discontinuing Xbox", would you take that as an official statement of Microsoft's intentions?

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago

Has anyone else had this problem with Win 11? Tried to log in this morning, but it rejects my password and opens a warning dialog that says: > Please verify that you are NoMoreNicksLeft by saying "Doritos™ Dew™ it right!" I think it must've updated over the long weekend.

Am4TIfIsER0ppos 2y ago
Did you run out of verification cans? 7-11 not open to buy more?

racl101 2y ago

Maybe throw less crap.

ffhhj 2y ago

> Windows 11 plummeted to a 25.69% market share after it reached an all-time high of 28.16% back in February 2024. Meanwhile, Windows 10 has risen to over 70% market share during the same period 1980's: we all wanted personal computers 1990's: we all wanted the Internet 2000's: we all wanted social networks 2010's: we all wanted mobile devices 2020's: we just want to get rid of shitty search and AI surveillance

anthk 2y ago
Well, actually 1984-5: Big corpos, banks and so badly needs IBM PC's for everything. Every big serious office gets computerized. 1993-4: We want PCs for everyone -> Windows 95 and the Multimedia PCs with MSOffice, CD Players and so. 2003-4: Internet for everyone -> Flat rate broadband and P2P plus IM changues everything. 2013-4: Social media for everyone -> Everyone got its smartphone.
CatWChainsaw 2y ago
Best version from my experience. Local accounts, minimal telemetry for years, run your updates on your schedule instead of Microsoft's. A computer that was actually yours and not a data pipe. Make Windows Seven Again.

Seanambers 2y ago

When Win10 support winds down, I am unsure if I will even bother to continue to use it. MS has shit the bag so to speak with every version since Windows 7.

skeeter2020 2y ago
This is exactly how I feel, so fatigued from fighting the Microsoft BS of "making windows like it was before the last update". If you're going to make me buy new hardware to go to 11 I'll have to seriously consider buying a Mac
- timw4mail 2y ago
  How many more hoops do I have to jump through to get my desktop like Windows 98 in this version of Windows?

Grimeton 2y ago

Windows 10 is the maximum intrusion people are willing to take. That's all there is. If Microsoft isn't going to stop this, I wonder where we end up. As this is an OS that billions of people rely on. I can already see a lot of people using outdated versions w/o support just to avoid espionage hell.

ragnese 2y ago
> Windows 10 is the maximum intrusion people are willing to take. Statistically, 100% of people are willing to take exactly what they get when they buy a new computer. With the same precision of rounding, 0% of people are going to dig into settings to see if they can turn off something that they find annoying- usually because they're afraid of breaking something. People literally buy smart TVs that play ads when they aren't even watching anything (or it's been paused for a few minutes).
- Grimeton 2y ago
  A lot of stuff cannot be turned off in the home editions and even some stuff cannot be disabled in the professional or enterprise editions. Microsoft is adding more and more espionage to its OS knowing all to well that whole countries cannot just switch easily away from it. I hope that this triggers what is needed for people and companies to move over to open source software like FreeBSD.
WheatMillington 2y ago
>Windows 10 is the maximum intrusion people are willing to take. HN commenters have a habbit of massively overestimating how important this is to normal users.
- Grimeton 2y ago
  The level of espionage has been dialed up in many products like TVs, phones, Windows and so on over time. So more and more people are becoming aware and realize they don't want to be spied on. So it's becoming more and more an issue of public interest. So at least one commenter on HN underestimates how important this has already and will become in the future for normal users.

qwerty456127 2y ago

Ideally Microsoft should just stop forcing bullshit and keep doing Windows the classic way. The value of Windows is in what it is, not in what it "can become".

watermelon0 2y ago
Value for Microsoft or end users? I'm sure that classic way was better for end users, but that might not be true from their perspective.
- qwerty456127 2y ago
  Well, in case they want something new they should probably build something new rather than try "sitting on both chairs" (the rich valuable legacy and destructively new modern vision) with one product. But we know they will probably fail if they try because nobody really needs anything new from them.

chaorace 2y ago

Today's Windows 12 is tomorrow's Windows 11. Even if the teams change, the environment that produced the current team will remain -- it was game over the moment Windows OS fell from money maker to cost-center. With that being said, what kind of change would "save" Windows? From an organizational perspective, a spin-off would be most effective... albeit the least likely. If we take that off the table, the next best thing would be to retool the product so that it scales better for such an unwieldy organization. I'm talking a new kernel that's compact and totally modular... but good luck dealing with that can of worms. It all circles back to Microsoft as a corporate entity -- what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

rickydroll 2y ago
or... put all their energy into making Wine a fully functional replacement for windows. W12 = Wine + your favorite distribution. (Yeah, yeah, like wayland, it's never going to happen but I can dream, can't I)
pjmlp 2y ago
The end goal now seems to have Azure as Azure OS kind of thing. And it isn't only Windows, notice the whole drama regarding XBox hardware.

deleted 2y ago

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makach 2y ago

*off topic Some parts of the window are absolutely well done and excellently polished and implemented - and there are some killer features and applications which makes it an amazing platform. however - I don't know how much longer I can balance my privacy against this functionality, and it is a struggle in the workplace as well, where management seems to appreciate the functionality to restrict, constrain and monitor their users.

ivraatiems 2y ago

A big reason that nobody is switching to Windows 11 is because Microsoft actively makes it impossible for most consumers to do so. They're trying to force you to buy new hardware by obsoleting the vast, vast majority of Windows 10 machines - even though those machines are completely capable of running Windows 11! If they simply allowed people on older devices to install Windows 11, those usage numbers would double or triple basically overnight. I don't think most non-HN people care about spying, but they also don't care enough about having the latest version of Windows to buy a whole new computer. I can't imagine why Microsoft thought they would. The big question is what happens when Windows 10 support ends, about a year and a half from now. Microsoft will basically be creating one of the biggest security disasters of all time by no longer providing updates for Windows 10 to keep it secure. It's hard to believe they'll do that, but all signs point to it. Support ending is not going to convince people to start throwing out perfectly functional computers.

JohnTHaller 2y ago
Microsoft is doing about what Apple does except more as a one time thing. 7th Gen Intel chips launched in early 2016. These machines will lose support for Windows 10 in October 2025. Most Macs are supported about 5 years for full OS updates and about 2 more years of security updates though this all varies a bit OS to OS version. As an example, when macOS 12 (Monterey) reaches end of life in a few months, MacBook Pro pre-2017, MacBook Air pre-2018, iMac pre-2017, and Mac Mini pre-2018 will all be unsupported and no longer receive security updates.
nonillion 2y ago
While preparing to help my family I found the official way to bypass the artificial minimum requirements to upgrade from 10 to 11: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/ways-to-install-windows-11-e0edbbfb-cfc5-4011-868b-2ce77ac7c70e https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/ways-to-install-... Registry Key: HKEY_LOCAL MACHINE\SYSTEM\Setup\MoSetup Name: AllowUpgradesWithUnsupportedTPMOrCPU Type: REG_DWORD Value: 1
- hulitu 2y ago
  Why would you want to upgrade ?/s

ein0p 2y ago

They should really buy Ubuntu and shut down Windows entirely. Then release a compat layer for Windows software and sell the enterprise add-ons on top. Linux won.

worik 2y ago

Let me correct that headline Microsoft should accept that it's time to give up on Windows

bsnnkv 2y ago

Windows 11 and WSL2 is pretty much the best development environment experience around right now in my books. Being in the Windows ecosystem lets me benefit from that crazy backwards compat and support for mainstream software, windows-rs lets me customize a batteries-included DE[1] without having to touch JS, and on the WSL2 side of things I can run NixOS for all of my regular development needs. It's very sad and frustrating to see Microsoft, despite all of this, trying to make the operating system as un-useable as possible in all the ways mentioned in this article and in other comments. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLz3eqQDufw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLz3eqQDufw

JohnFen 2y ago

> The biggest reason to make the move to Windows 11 is possibly Microsoft Copilot Personally, I think that's one of the several big reasons to avoid Win 11.

_hao 2y ago

If you un-fuck Win 11 (shout out to O&O ShutUp10++ which should be mandatory for any user), PowerToys and WSL it's _probably_ the best dev environment you can get. Even so, the trajectory is not great. I wonder where the point of resistance will be for the normal user, but then again probably it doesn't matter. Normal users won't go to Linux. It's either Mac or Windows. As a Dev (and company owner) I would pay for a stripped out version of Windows Pro that contains only the stuff I need for dev and nothing else. No AI crap, no spyware and forced updates crap etc.

jolux 2y ago
I much prefer Macs for development and have for more than ten years at this point.

CatWChainsaw 2y ago

While I don't think Windows 12 could be mandatory OS as a service at this time, I wouldn't be surprised if Windows 14 is.

ripply 2y ago

It’s funny peering into the windows cosmos after leaving it when things started to get bad. To me it seems like a bunch of tech people disillusioned with their OS grasping at straws hoping Microsoft rights the course knowing full well it will never happen, RIP Windows I for one am glad you are dead.