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VW to Build €20k EVs on Its Own, Forgoing Partnerships

20 points by billplayfair 2y ago

billplayfair 2y ago
From the article: “The German manufacturer plans to unveil its proposals for affordable compact EVs in 2027, it said Tuesday.” If that article is correct, it is insane that the established Western companies are going to take 3 YEARS(!) to even UNVEIL their new low-cost EV efforts.
- recursive 2y ago
  > plans to unveil a proposal Three levels of weaseling. The chance of this being real seems pretty remote at this point.
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    Announcing something 3 years out for an automaker would be realistic. Building out the lines, all the planning and design, takes time. The alternative is Tesla announcing new models this year or the next year, and then "delays" for multiple years, ending up effectively about the same.
    - recursive 2y ago
      Yes. Exactly. Tesla announcements about future plans are worth about the same amount.
krallja 2y ago
I don’t understand why it’s taking the “legacy” automakers so long to respond. This is basic Innovator’s Dilemma strategy - and yet none have a cheap EV yet?
- geraldhh 2y ago
  presumably you don't get to be 'legacy' if you are big on selling cheap products
  - krallja 2y ago
    The way innovators erode a legacy company’s advantage is by attacking an area they aren’t worrying about. Usually, that’s cost (“Japanese cars”, x86 supercomputers), but sometimes it’s speed, power, or convenience (Amazon.com in the 90s). Car companies have had plenty of warning about cheap EVs, but the only relatively cheap ones I know about are the (discontinued) Chevy Volt, the base Tesla Model 3, and the Volvo EX30 that just came out (surprise! it’s Chinese).
Szpadel 2y ago
my bet is that they count on progress with sodium batteries that could dramatically affect EV pricing
junaru 2y ago
The only way its gonna be 20k and built in EU is if it's golfcart tier and has ton of subscriptions that suck another 20k in couple of years.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Casteil 2y ago
To all manufacturers: More plug-in hybrids, please! A smaller battery with a range of 40-100 miles would allow most people to do their daily driving strictly on battery. Beyond that, a gas/diesel generator should kick in for range extension (or for towing).
- Kirby64 2y ago
  PHEV's have all the downsides of maintaining a gas vehicle, as well as much of the associated cost (and upcharge) of a BEV at this point. It's not as much maintainence as a dedicated gas vehicle, but it's still there. Realistically, I think it makes a lot more sense to have a dedicated BEV with whatever range you feel appropriate, and a dedicated gas vehicle (if needed) for road trips and longer jaunts. For the vast majority of people, renting a vehicle makes a lot more sense for those occasions. Generally, I think the populous seems to highly overvalue the ability to take a road trip on a moments notice and undervalue the ease of just being able to rent a vehicle.
  - michaelt 2y ago
    I don't own a car, so I've rented vehicles from time to time - and my experience is that (in my country at least) the vehicle rental experience is absolute trash. Would you believe that on three separate occasions I turned up to collect my (reserved and paid for) vehicle on a Friday, ready to go on a road trip, and they simply didn't have a vehicle for me?
    - esel2k 2y ago
      On vehicle rental beeing trash is a solvable problem. Especially here in Europe where we have many apartments. I would welcome that every new build gets a garage with accessible EV for rental and in such a case I would totally opt out to not own my car anymore. Book in advance, do short trips with the EV in the garage or in front of the house. All doable.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- 2y ago
JudasGoat 2y ago
https://archive.ph/6jgNL https://archive.ph/6jgNL
tromp 2y ago
The VW ID.2all [1] looks promising. Too bad it will be delayed to 2026 or beyond [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_ID.2all https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_ID.2all [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/18zbn0v/vw_delaying_id2_production_until_2026_because_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/18zbn0v/v...
lnsru 2y ago
Citroën ë-C3 and Renault R5 are steps in the right direction. I don’t trust VW anymore to do anything revolutionary like affordable electrical vehicle for the masses. VW e-Up was close, but too far from €20k. Why I don’t trust VW? I look at Cariad, the software company and think, that group has too many internal conflicts. Every brand has its own interests and needs at the end. I am not sure, that cheap e vehicle is a common need for them. VW is happy having Golf as most popular new car again right now.
rdtsc 2y ago
> German carmaker plans to unveil affordable models in 2027 It's probably about time for "affordable". I thought "affordable" would be the name of the game right from the start. But unfortunately, EVs even with tax cuts and credits are still just as expensive if not more so than regular vehicles. They are not even cheaper to insure either. So it's good they aim for affordability, but I am not sure in US $22k as quite low enough, at least not for me. As it stands with current number of chargers and gas prices I'd rather pay $24k for a basic Honda Civic. Maybe in some years, they'll make even more affordable models, we'd have longer lasting batteries, or there will be a lot more chargers around.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  With the used EV tax credit, I just put a friend in a used Model Y from Carmax for $22k out the door. ~44k miles on it, will last them at least 10 years (if not more), at which point EVs will be even better and cheaper. Certainly, driving down new EV prices is invaluable, but these vehicles can be had today at affordable prices in the used auto market.
freefaler 2y ago
BYD would eat their lunch and it's not only the China government subsidies, but the pace of development. Can't beat the Chinese work ethic with German socialism and work/life balance 35 hours per week. There will be steep tariffs to keep them afloat, but the hungry chinese competitors would beat the legacy lazy ones.
- sjeneenee 2y ago
  Work ethic is useless if you have no time to enjoy the world. All for EVs while you can take the bicycle of bus
- orwin 2y ago
  French socialism has less worked hours, more vacation days than Germany, strikes, and Renault Zoé was clearly the PoC for BYD's models, so I think it has nothing to do with all that.
bryanlarsen 2y ago
Affordable EV's are already in the US; I'm sure Europe has an even better selection. Do to incentive shenanigans, the best deals are all leases. Five EV's that lease for under $300/month including deposit: https://electrek.co/2024/05/28/five-evs-that-lease-for-under-300-month https://electrek.co/2024/05/28/five-evs-that-lease-for-under...

20 points by billplayfair 2y ago

From the article: “The German manufacturer plans to unveil its proposals for affordable compact EVs in 2027, it said Tuesday.” If that article is correct, it is insane that the established Western companies are going to take 3 YEARS(!) to even UNVEIL their new low-cost EV efforts.

recursive 2y ago
> plans to unveil a proposal Three levels of weaseling. The chance of this being real seems pretty remote at this point.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  Announcing something 3 years out for an automaker would be realistic. Building out the lines, all the planning and design, takes time. The alternative is Tesla announcing new models this year or the next year, and then "delays" for multiple years, ending up effectively about the same.
  - recursive 2y ago
    Yes. Exactly. Tesla announcements about future plans are worth about the same amount.

krallja 2y ago

I don’t understand why it’s taking the “legacy” automakers so long to respond. This is basic Innovator’s Dilemma strategy - and yet none have a cheap EV yet?

geraldhh 2y ago
presumably you don't get to be 'legacy' if you are big on selling cheap products
- krallja 2y ago
  The way innovators erode a legacy company’s advantage is by attacking an area they aren’t worrying about. Usually, that’s cost (“Japanese cars”, x86 supercomputers), but sometimes it’s speed, power, or convenience (Amazon.com in the 90s). Car companies have had plenty of warning about cheap EVs, but the only relatively cheap ones I know about are the (discontinued) Chevy Volt, the base Tesla Model 3, and the Volvo EX30 that just came out (surprise! it’s Chinese).

Szpadel 2y ago

my bet is that they count on progress with sodium batteries that could dramatically affect EV pricing

junaru 2y ago

The only way its gonna be 20k and built in EU is if it's golfcart tier and has ton of subscriptions that suck another 20k in couple of years.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Casteil 2y ago

To all manufacturers: More plug-in hybrids, please! A smaller battery with a range of 40-100 miles would allow most people to do their daily driving strictly on battery. Beyond that, a gas/diesel generator should kick in for range extension (or for towing).

Kirby64 2y ago
PHEV's have all the downsides of maintaining a gas vehicle, as well as much of the associated cost (and upcharge) of a BEV at this point. It's not as much maintainence as a dedicated gas vehicle, but it's still there. Realistically, I think it makes a lot more sense to have a dedicated BEV with whatever range you feel appropriate, and a dedicated gas vehicle (if needed) for road trips and longer jaunts. For the vast majority of people, renting a vehicle makes a lot more sense for those occasions. Generally, I think the populous seems to highly overvalue the ability to take a road trip on a moments notice and undervalue the ease of just being able to rent a vehicle.
- michaelt 2y ago
  I don't own a car, so I've rented vehicles from time to time - and my experience is that (in my country at least) the vehicle rental experience is absolute trash. Would you believe that on three separate occasions I turned up to collect my (reserved and paid for) vehicle on a Friday, ready to go on a road trip, and they simply didn't have a vehicle for me?
  - esel2k 2y ago
    On vehicle rental beeing trash is a solvable problem. Especially here in Europe where we have many apartments. I would welcome that every new build gets a garage with accessible EV for rental and in such a case I would totally opt out to not own my car anymore. Book in advance, do short trips with the EV in the garage or in front of the house. All doable.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
2y ago

JudasGoat 2y ago

https://archive.ph/6jgNL https://archive.ph/6jgNL

tromp 2y ago

The VW ID.2all [1] looks promising. Too bad it will be delayed to 2026 or beyond [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_ID.2all https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_ID.2all [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/18zbn0v/vw_delaying_id2_production_until_2026_because_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/18zbn0v/v...

lnsru 2y ago

Citroën ë-C3 and Renault R5 are steps in the right direction. I don’t trust VW anymore to do anything revolutionary like affordable electrical vehicle for the masses. VW e-Up was close, but too far from €20k. Why I don’t trust VW? I look at Cariad, the software company and think, that group has too many internal conflicts. Every brand has its own interests and needs at the end. I am not sure, that cheap e vehicle is a common need for them. VW is happy having Golf as most popular new car again right now.

rdtsc 2y ago

> German carmaker plans to unveil affordable models in 2027 It's probably about time for "affordable". I thought "affordable" would be the name of the game right from the start. But unfortunately, EVs even with tax cuts and credits are still just as expensive if not more so than regular vehicles. They are not even cheaper to insure either. So it's good they aim for affordability, but I am not sure in US $22k as quite low enough, at least not for me. As it stands with current number of chargers and gas prices I'd rather pay $24k for a basic Honda Civic. Maybe in some years, they'll make even more affordable models, we'd have longer lasting batteries, or there will be a lot more chargers around.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
With the used EV tax credit, I just put a friend in a used Model Y from Carmax for $22k out the door. ~44k miles on it, will last them at least 10 years (if not more), at which point EVs will be even better and cheaper. Certainly, driving down new EV prices is invaluable, but these vehicles can be had today at affordable prices in the used auto market.

freefaler 2y ago

BYD would eat their lunch and it's not only the China government subsidies, but the pace of development. Can't beat the Chinese work ethic with German socialism and work/life balance 35 hours per week. There will be steep tariffs to keep them afloat, but the hungry chinese competitors would beat the legacy lazy ones.

sjeneenee 2y ago
Work ethic is useless if you have no time to enjoy the world. All for EVs while you can take the bicycle of bus
orwin 2y ago
French socialism has less worked hours, more vacation days than Germany, strikes, and Renault Zoé was clearly the PoC for BYD's models, so I think it has nothing to do with all that.

bryanlarsen 2y ago

Affordable EV's are already in the US; I'm sure Europe has an even better selection. Do to incentive shenanigans, the best deals are all leases. Five EV's that lease for under $300/month including deposit: https://electrek.co/2024/05/28/five-evs-that-lease-for-under-300-month https://electrek.co/2024/05/28/five-evs-that-lease-for-under...