5 ms·

Iirc, 20% of all bedrooms in UK are spare bedrooms in houses that are too big for their owners. This is indeed underutilization.

Macha 2y ago
As someone with spare bedrooms, this itself is a problem of undersupply. If you can't be sure of being able to trade up when you need to (e.g. after starting a family) because house prices are up 100% in 10 years, then you're going to want to buy a house for all possible future needs, rather than current needs. Add to that, things that might be desirable for other reasons, like garden space, rooms for use as offices, large kitchens, etc. all tend to scale with bedroom count too.
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  House ownership is higher among boomers, who are not going to have children anyway. Maybe for some people concern for future prices is a good reason, but certainly it is not for everyone. If there’s spare capacity enough for 20% more people and population growth forecast by 2050 is just one third of that, you cannot really talk about undersupply, when there’s enough accommodation to cover even future demand.
  - Macha 2y ago
    This assumes a level of fungibility that's just not there. Apart from the discussions elsewhere in this thread about why spare bedrooms might not be suitable to rent, even for those that are, splitting a family of 4 across 4 spare bedrooms in 4 different properties is suboptimal at best and legally child neglect at worst. Equally, houses in Cornwall are of little use when the jobs are in London.
- gravescale 2y ago
  Also trading up comes with stamp duty, which is a damper on moving house unless you absolutely have to. Not only is your new house bigger and more expensive then anything you've ever bought before with that extra bedroom, plus the large expenses and hassle of moving in general, it's likely another £10k or more in stamp duty unless your new 3-bed is somewhere pretty cheap in the country. You don't get the first time buyer discount either, as you already have a house. It's basically a tax that punishes labour mobility and not oversizing property. Of course, you have to pay to heat and maintain that bigger house and pay higher council tax on it, so your saved stamp duty will probably be used after a few years, so in an ultra-rational way, it comes out in the wash, but it certainly doesn't feel like it at the time.
throwaway22032 2y ago
Underutilized would imply that it's literally useless dead space. I have more rooms in my house than people, they have purposes.
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  UK census differentiates between rooms and bedrooms, so indeed an unused bedroom is likely a dead space.
  - throwaway22032 2y ago
    My home is listed as having more bedrooms than people. They are not dead spaces, and they wouldn't somehow become more useful if I knocked a wall or two through to reduce the room count or reclassified them.
    - wyre 2y ago
      Are you purposefully being obtuse? The point is the difference between bedrooms, bedrooms used as offices, etc, and spare bedrooms. You can have more bedrooms than people and fully utilize the rooms not being used as bedrooms; the statistic is 20% of rooms are being underutilized ie spare bedrooms that don’t get used.
      - throwaway22032 2y ago
        I'm not deliberately being obtuse - I simply don't believe that many people have literally empty rooms that they don't use. I don't know anyone that has an empty room in their house, or one that no-one enters for weeks at a time, etc. Maybe the odd country estate is like that. To a communist, the concept of having a guest room, office, storage room etc might feel like "underutilization". If we apply that more generally, then the park outside my house is underutilized because the maximum capacity are not sunbathing in it at all times. I think that's a pretty silly use of language.
        2y ago
toasterlovin 2y ago
Just to conceptualize this, it's like every 5 bedroom house having 1 unused bedroom, perhaps being used as an office. Of course, most houses don't have 5 bedrooms, so in reality this is an extra bedroom for every 2 houses. Again, possibly being well used for another purpose. That doesn't seem like a lot of underutilization to me.
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  Rooms used for another purpose are not called bedrooms. See yourself: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingenglandandwales/census2021 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/...
  - nemomarx 2y ago
    How does a guest bedroom get counted, out of curiosity?
    - ivan_gammel 2y ago
      Guest bedroom is underutilized space unless you are a hotel or full-time Airbnb. How often people are staying there? A few months a year in total, if children spend the whole summer with grandparents and visit on rare holidays?
      - toasterlovin 2y ago
        Is that a problem? It's a guest bedroom for every two houses. Something approaching the vast majority of all economic output goes toward things which are extraneous when measured against the historical median standard of living. But people like nice things. And a guest bedroom is a nice thing that some people like.
      - CalRobert 2y ago
        That feels... weird. Would you say a car is underutilized if it's not being driven 24 hours a day?
imgabe 2y ago
The owner is living there and happy with the space or they would move. That is not underutilization. The solution to housing shortage is to build more housing, not to create “bedroom police” who go around and tell you’re not allowed to have your house because they will decide for you how much space you need.
- wing-_-nuts 2y ago
  Lol bedroom police. Yes, because that's exactly what we were discussing. Or, you could, you know, make it more affordable to build smaller homes with fewer bedrooms so people actually have options when they become empty nesters.
  - imgabe 2y ago
    That would fall under "build more housing".
Symmetry 2y ago
If you're talking about the study that everyone was talking about last week, that definition of "spare bedroom" includes a family of four with three bedrooms who gives each child their own bedroom when they could just have them sleep in the same room.

Macha 2y ago

As someone with spare bedrooms, this itself is a problem of undersupply. If you can't be sure of being able to trade up when you need to (e.g. after starting a family) because house prices are up 100% in 10 years, then you're going to want to buy a house for all possible future needs, rather than current needs. Add to that, things that might be desirable for other reasons, like garden space, rooms for use as offices, large kitchens, etc. all tend to scale with bedroom count too.

ivan_gammel 2y ago
House ownership is higher among boomers, who are not going to have children anyway. Maybe for some people concern for future prices is a good reason, but certainly it is not for everyone. If there’s spare capacity enough for 20% more people and population growth forecast by 2050 is just one third of that, you cannot really talk about undersupply, when there’s enough accommodation to cover even future demand.
- Macha 2y ago
  This assumes a level of fungibility that's just not there. Apart from the discussions elsewhere in this thread about why spare bedrooms might not be suitable to rent, even for those that are, splitting a family of 4 across 4 spare bedrooms in 4 different properties is suboptimal at best and legally child neglect at worst. Equally, houses in Cornwall are of little use when the jobs are in London.
gravescale 2y ago
Also trading up comes with stamp duty, which is a damper on moving house unless you absolutely have to. Not only is your new house bigger and more expensive then anything you've ever bought before with that extra bedroom, plus the large expenses and hassle of moving in general, it's likely another £10k or more in stamp duty unless your new 3-bed is somewhere pretty cheap in the country. You don't get the first time buyer discount either, as you already have a house. It's basically a tax that punishes labour mobility and not oversizing property. Of course, you have to pay to heat and maintain that bigger house and pay higher council tax on it, so your saved stamp duty will probably be used after a few years, so in an ultra-rational way, it comes out in the wash, but it certainly doesn't feel like it at the time.

throwaway22032 2y ago

Underutilized would imply that it's literally useless dead space. I have more rooms in my house than people, they have purposes.

ivan_gammel 2y ago
UK census differentiates between rooms and bedrooms, so indeed an unused bedroom is likely a dead space.
- throwaway22032 2y ago
  My home is listed as having more bedrooms than people. They are not dead spaces, and they wouldn't somehow become more useful if I knocked a wall or two through to reduce the room count or reclassified them.
  - wyre 2y ago
    Are you purposefully being obtuse? The point is the difference between bedrooms, bedrooms used as offices, etc, and spare bedrooms. You can have more bedrooms than people and fully utilize the rooms not being used as bedrooms; the statistic is 20% of rooms are being underutilized ie spare bedrooms that don’t get used.
    - throwaway22032 2y ago
      I'm not deliberately being obtuse - I simply don't believe that many people have literally empty rooms that they don't use. I don't know anyone that has an empty room in their house, or one that no-one enters for weeks at a time, etc. Maybe the odd country estate is like that. To a communist, the concept of having a guest room, office, storage room etc might feel like "underutilization". If we apply that more generally, then the park outside my house is underutilized because the maximum capacity are not sunbathing in it at all times. I think that's a pretty silly use of language.
      - 2y ago

toasterlovin 2y ago

Just to conceptualize this, it's like every 5 bedroom house having 1 unused bedroom, perhaps being used as an office. Of course, most houses don't have 5 bedrooms, so in reality this is an extra bedroom for every 2 houses. Again, possibly being well used for another purpose. That doesn't seem like a lot of underutilization to me.

ivan_gammel 2y ago
Rooms used for another purpose are not called bedrooms. See yourself: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingenglandandwales/census2021 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/...
- nemomarx 2y ago
  How does a guest bedroom get counted, out of curiosity?
  - ivan_gammel 2y ago
    Guest bedroom is underutilized space unless you are a hotel or full-time Airbnb. How often people are staying there? A few months a year in total, if children spend the whole summer with grandparents and visit on rare holidays?
    - toasterlovin 2y ago
      Is that a problem? It's a guest bedroom for every two houses. Something approaching the vast majority of all economic output goes toward things which are extraneous when measured against the historical median standard of living. But people like nice things. And a guest bedroom is a nice thing that some people like.
    - CalRobert 2y ago
      That feels... weird. Would you say a car is underutilized if it's not being driven 24 hours a day?

imgabe 2y ago

The owner is living there and happy with the space or they would move. That is not underutilization. The solution to housing shortage is to build more housing, not to create “bedroom police” who go around and tell you’re not allowed to have your house because they will decide for you how much space you need.

wing-_-nuts 2y ago
Lol bedroom police. Yes, because that's exactly what we were discussing. Or, you could, you know, make it more affordable to build smaller homes with fewer bedrooms so people actually have options when they become empty nesters.
- imgabe 2y ago
  That would fall under "build more housing".

Symmetry 2y ago

If you're talking about the study that everyone was talking about last week, that definition of "spare bedroom" includes a family of four with three bedrooms who gives each child their own bedroom when they could just have them sleep in the same room.