21 ms·

macOS Sonoma silently enabled iCloud Keychain despite my precautions

172 points by walterbell 2y ago

Tepix 2y ago
This "bug" really made me mad when it happened to me as well. It seems to be on purpose, it's happened multiple times over the years!
justinclift 2y ago
Seems like Apple have clearly gone from "We take your privacy seriously!" to "We take your privacy, seriously!".
- passwordle 2y ago
  [flagged]
- brutal_chaos_ 2y ago
  Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I'm pretty sure "we take your privacy seriously" has always been marketing and nothing more. they could say that because they aren't Google who really doesn't care about privacy. So in comparison, it was "correct." Regardless, they are a company and companies can change their ideals at any point, so one should never take marketing strategies seriously (not that you did, just a general warning).
  - Tagbert 2y ago
    It is both marketing and they have taken steps to protect privacy. In some cases they have made apps less functional or less simply because of privacy concerns. Of course that is not their only concern and they do have an obligation to make money, but it’s not a binary choice and saying that it is nothing more than marketing is reductionist cynicism.
    - justinclift 2y ago
      Maybe "was reductionist cynicism". Their present day approach makes it seems very plausible that it's just marketing and weasel words, nothing more. :(
- thefz 2y ago
  Apple is/was a happy member of PRISM, though they don't tell that in commercials.
cjk2 2y ago
To quote the article "I've always managed my data myself, taking personal responsibility for protecting it and backing it up. I don't want or need Apple to insert itself into this process as a remote nanny." But do this to sync to iCloud at all, you'd have to log into an Apple account in the first place on the machine. Surely that is counter to the requirement?
- OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago
  Agreed. This is OPs fault
- FLT8 2y ago
  There are other reasons to be logged into iCloud. For example, "find my device" relies on this. Just because you want to be able to find a stolen device doesn't mean you also want your data exfiltrated.
  - csande17 2y ago
    The author also ships software on the Mac App Store that includes an option to sync settings via iCloud. Presumably they test it on their main user account to catch all the weird iCloud bugs that only occur if you use it frequently.
- walterbell 2y ago
  How does one download app security updates without login? It's usually possible to login via the App Store, without logging into iCloud.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    Yeah, that's the same setup I use. An Apple account for our dev membership and being able to download stuff (ie Xcode), but no iCloud usage at all. Neither need nor want iCloud anything.
rock_artist 2y ago
I don’t expect bug free software. But I do expect Apple to do minimal tests of the toggled off cases. It’s one of the biggest companies. Why can they test minimum trivial QA workflows? Why there’s always this bug where some toggle is broken resulting unintended data to be sent or downloaded?
- doubled112 2y ago
  I know I’m supposed to attribute things like this to incompetence, not malice, but how many times can a similar mistake repeat before it is not a mistake? Seems similar to how Windows settings “accidentally” revert to the less private ones.
  - rock_artist 2y ago
    With Apple, many times it's just bad QA. Just like you can assume they QA iMessage much more than standard SMS since this is what "they use" :) With Microsoft, every update I get this wizard that tries to trick me to put OneDrive, trial Office and other things. and... one in a few update a new dark pattern is being added. So it's not a bug... it's a feature from their perspective.
upon_drumhead 2y ago
I don't really understand the folks that use the platform and then talk about how completely untrustworthy it is.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Pick your poison, everything else is also broken.
  - upon_drumhead 2y ago
    Sure, but if you fully believe that the platform is untrustworthy, that seems like the ultimate dealbreaker for someone who is concerned about their data privacy. It's the juxtaposition of "I don't trust this platform at all" and "I put my data that must remain private on it" that I don't understand.
    - dkarras 2y ago
      Trusthworthy has two meanings here. I trust that Apple does have no intention to look into my private data. I think they'd rather have no way of getting into it while providing the services as that minimizes their liability. In that sense they are trustworthy. But you might not trust them to be secure enough to store that data. Or maybe it has nothing to do with Apple, maybe you don't want your keychain in the "cloud" ever. I trust Apple does not intend to be nefarious, I don't trust (the security of) any "cloud" to store sensitive data. Those are not conflicting positions to be in.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ric129 2y ago
  There's an inherent trade-off in everything Besides, in this case.. it does not help that you'd also have to exchange hardware
- asadotzler 2y ago
  Because this particular untrustworthiness manifested after the user adopted the platform. I don't really understand corporate bootlicking either, but I can at least take a minute to think about it before posting nonsense.
pomian 2y ago
That's great you posted this information. As someone who helps various other people with their computers, and a lot of them Macs, it's hard to stay on top of all nuances of trying to keep secure and private. Apple keeps doing things that are more Microsoft like, all the time. It is becoming extremely difficult to keep your own data, on your own machine.
- walterbell 2y ago
  Asahi Linux on Apple Silicon is increasingly attractive.
  - School-Cotton 2y ago
    Unfortunately no support for M3 MBPs yet
  - mixmastamyk 2y ago
    Is it possible to install without mac os and/or internet access yet?
    - TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
      You can do this if you effectively disable Secure Boot. The highest boot security setting, which ships as the default, requires an install-time certificate check.
  - firecall 2y ago
    Hopefully we will get good Linux support on those new ARM PCs! If it's not here already - I dont really follow the space :-)
    - walterbell 2y ago
      Upstream Linux is progressing, hopefully at least one major PC OEM invests in official Linux support with Ubuntu, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479941. If Apple allows VMs on iPad Pro in iOS 18, it might take some wind out of Oryon sails, but with Nvidia, Mediatek and maybe AMD joining the Arm train in the coming year, real competition lies ahead. A repairable Arm laptop from Framework would be great.
II2II 2y ago
> why don't I just "go with the flow", adopt iCloud Keychain and passkeys? I don't like the "on principle" response since a lot of people will end up thinking, "oh, so it doesn't really matter." Even the author's elaboration could lead to responses like: "they are control freaks," or "they are paranoid." In my case, the answer is simple: I have access to systems that contain confidential information about other people. Protecting their data is my responsibility. While I have little doubt that Apple (and other vendors that provide similar services) do their best to guarantee the security of these products, their centralized nature and potential value of the data it leads to make them very juicy targets.
- andrewaylett 2y ago
  I suspect that Apple (and Google) are going to be better at maintaining my privacy (at least from anyone who isn't Apple (or Google, respectively)) than I am. For the record, there's plenty of data I wouldn't want to give either company (especially Google) but the answer there is also fairly straightforward: I don't put my passwords into my iCloud Keychain. Or, for that matter, into Google's password manager.
  - dijit 2y ago
    I am your government. I am your doctor. I am your lawyer. I don't trust any company, let alone a foreign controlled one to have authorised access to my accounts as me. I would be held accountable if they were exposed and they sufficiently covered their tracks (and they are incentivised to try). Why should I brazenly permit this? (for the record, as a private individual I am using iCloud keychain, and for work I use 1password with its online storage: however I just make video games, I don’t have the power to destroy lives, nor do I have a responsibility to avoid it; I am merely pointing out that perfect being the enemy of good is not always good enough for everyone.)
    - II2II 2y ago
      > I don't trust any company It does not have to be a matter of trust. People make mistakes. The wrong mistake can lead to a vulnerability. Technology advances. What was considered secure 20 years ago is not considered secure today. Companies change hands and have changes in leadership. Then there is the question of: what does trusting a company mean? Their actions are the result of a multitude of minds, not a singular one.
can16358p 2y ago
While not directly related to OP's issue, after using Apple Watch Ultra and seeing how buggy and crappy everything about it is for a several months with literally zero fixes (not just me, but several friends who has Ultra too), I'm convinced that QA at Apple is run by primate apes. There is no sensible explanation that a flagship device can be full of bugs and inferior quality to its 3-year older non-flagship counterparts.
- SahAssar 2y ago
  > I'm convinced that QA at Apple is run by primate apes. If you yourself is not a primate ape I would be surprised and call every news agency available to tell them a new species is using written language and the internet.
  - awesomeMilou 2y ago
    I tried to report issues with a broken VP9 decoder causing system instability in MediaToolBox on my Mac Mini but I need to pay 100$ to even get a chance for an Apple tech to see this issue in their developer forums (not that they engage much with their developer community at all). Apple is shipping broken software left and right ever since the ARM transition and it's become noticeable.
    - SahAssar 2y ago
      I was mostly replying to the implication that apple would be using anything other than primate apes for QA. What other species/order than primate apes do you think would be suitable for apple QA?
    - dwaite 2y ago
      You are as likely to have an Apple engineer create a bug report for you on Apple's forums as you are here. http://feedbackassistant.apple.com http://feedbackassistant.apple.com is where you file such requests. Just keep in mind that the wall they have between public and internal systems means you may not get updates unless you periodically ask for them.
walterbell 2y ago
For maximum data isolation of hardware devices from Apple: - avoid storing anything on iCloud - disable iCloud via MDM / Apple Configurator policy profile - router block Apple network (17.0.0.0/8) connections - router block Apple CDNs via dnsmasq wildcard domains - router allow Apple servers for notifications and app/OS updates - login via App Store only, not Settings/iCloud Apple list by service: https://support.apple.com/en-us/101555 https://support.apple.com/en-us/101555
- zelphirkalt 2y ago
  You also might need to: - never take your precious Apple laptop outside - somehow make sure there is no other open WLAN nearby
  - walterbell 2y ago
    Mobile firewall options include Little Snitch on macOS, VPN/tailscale on iOS/iPad to home router, or an LTE travel router. If using a travel router, Apple Configurator can limit Wi-Fi SSIDs. There are claims that some Apple traffic can bypass on-device iOS VPNs.
    - zelphirkalt 2y ago
      How do you ensure that the OS does not by itself connect to a random open WLAN, when you cannot trust the OS?
      - walterbell 2y ago
        > when you cannot trust the OS The list above is not about distrusting the vendor or OS, it's about leveraging the vendor's officially published statements of behavior (e.g. HTTPS network traffic identified by PKI certificates tied to vendor's legal identity), used in contracts with enterprise customers that have competent lawyers, for the benefit of smaller customers. MDM policy can be configured to narrow the vendor's documented claims of software+hardware behavior. Narrowed claims are cheaper to verify empirically. If evidence can be found that MDM policy is not being enforced, then the pool of affected parties grows from powerless individuals to a class action (Apple has paid millions in the past) and/or large enterprises who use MDM to protect confidential enterprise data. > How do you ensure that the OS does not by itself connect to a random open WLAN In the case of Wi-Fi, MDM and Apple Configurator can configure device policy to connect only to approved SSIDs + a null list of approved SSIDs. To validate enforcement of this WiFi policy, the device can be placed in a small faraday box (commercial < $1000, DIY < $100) that blocks external RF, with an SDR that records all internal RF traffic for analysis. For a device with a null list of approved SSIDs, there should be zero Wi-Fi traffic from the baseband radio. Another option for MDM policy enforcement validation is to use a virtual iOS/macOS instance, where a hypervisor can perform live behavioral analysis of OS execution paths. Any unexpected behavior can be further investigated by reverse engineering of non-encrypted OS firmware binaries. Corellium offers a hosted service for virtualized iOS analysis, https://www.corellium.com https://www.corellium.com. They won their legal conflict with Apple. Finally, a third option is to modify the hardware device to disable unwanted radios, using only a wired network connection via USB. Past news articles have covered expensive modifications of commercial Apple hardware, for use by governments and companies in facilities where wireless networks were not allowed.
macintux 2y ago
Discussion from the previous blog post, a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40409290 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40409290
peppertree 2y ago
What are the best alternatives besides cloud keychains. Coming from sharing same password for multiple accounts, cloud keychain has been step up for me security wise. I'm honestly curious what are the better alternatives.
- readams 2y ago
  Something independent and cross platform like bitwarden.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- walterbell 2y ago
  iOS/macOS/Win/Android Codebook, https://www.zetetic.net/codebook/ https://www.zetetic.net/codebook/ - no subscription - open-source encryption (SQLCipher) - device-to-device encrypted sync via ethernet/wifi, dropbox, google drive - indie US developer, lineage to 1998 STRIP on PalmPilot - TOTP 2FA authenticator - sync encrypted notes/images 1999, http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/30/palm.tools.idg/ http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/30/palm.tools.idg/ > Secure Tool for Recalling Important Passwords (STRIP). STRIP uses heavy-duty, 128-bit triple-Data Encryption Standard to store information, and that means any information -- credit-card numbers, Web site accounts and voice-mail access codes. STRIP (Zetetic Enterprises, free) is also a great tool for IT managers who administer distributed environments. It can random-generate complex passwords and allows account information to be beamed between Palms, so the IT staff can stay up-to-date.
- nc0 2y ago
  1Password is reputed. Or KeepassXC if you prefer something to self-host
crazygringo 2y ago
Funny, I just checked and my iCloud keychain is not enabled. I've had it off for years (always?), and definitely upgraded to Sonoma when it prompted me, and it didn't re-enable it for me. My System Settings > Passwords says "Turn on iCloud Keychain" with two buttons "Not Now" and "Enable". (No idea what why there's a button "Not Now"?) But I don't use Keychain at all, I use a third-party password manager. At some points I'm sure Keychain has asked me if I wanted to save various passwords in Keychain and I've always said no. And it hasn't bugged me about it in a long time. I wonder why OP's systems are turning it on when mine didn't?
m463 2y ago
What can make you more aware of apple's practices is to enable Little Snitch. It's not perfect, but it monitors what process on your system wants to make what network connection. What appalled me was that even when adding a LOCAL email account, accountsd tries to phone home to apple. Apple is phoning home in ways it never should.
- TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
  Agreed. Though for that specific feature, Apple operates a lookup service that Mail uses to attempt to automatically configure your SMTP and IMAP/POP settings. It would be nice if it asked permission first.
IndySun 2y ago
We know a software 'off' is not a definitive off. So it is, imho, and has been for a long time, extremely safe to assume that Apple takes all data from all devices as often and as much as it can even when things are 'turned off'. Apple does it very obviously with settings on podcast sync or music artwork, blatantly having those off settings turn on after any update. LittleSnitch and the like also point to nannying tickles. I am equally blood boiled, like LapCatSoftware, and would applaud a huge fine from either the USA gov or the EU or both. Apple MUST address this. The privacy mask is slipping in full view of more public.

172 points by walterbell 2y ago

This "bug" really made me mad when it happened to me as well. It seems to be on purpose, it's happened multiple times over the years!

justinclift 2y ago

Seems like Apple have clearly gone from "We take your privacy seriously!" to "We take your privacy, seriously!".

passwordle 2y ago
[flagged]
brutal_chaos_ 2y ago
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I'm pretty sure "we take your privacy seriously" has always been marketing and nothing more. they could say that because they aren't Google who really doesn't care about privacy. So in comparison, it was "correct." Regardless, they are a company and companies can change their ideals at any point, so one should never take marketing strategies seriously (not that you did, just a general warning).
- Tagbert 2y ago
  It is both marketing and they have taken steps to protect privacy. In some cases they have made apps less functional or less simply because of privacy concerns. Of course that is not their only concern and they do have an obligation to make money, but it’s not a binary choice and saying that it is nothing more than marketing is reductionist cynicism.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    Maybe "was reductionist cynicism". Their present day approach makes it seems very plausible that it's just marketing and weasel words, nothing more. :(
thefz 2y ago
Apple is/was a happy member of PRISM, though they don't tell that in commercials.

cjk2 2y ago

To quote the article "I've always managed my data myself, taking personal responsibility for protecting it and backing it up. I don't want or need Apple to insert itself into this process as a remote nanny." But do this to sync to iCloud at all, you'd have to log into an Apple account in the first place on the machine. Surely that is counter to the requirement?

OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago
Agreed. This is OPs fault
FLT8 2y ago
There are other reasons to be logged into iCloud. For example, "find my device" relies on this. Just because you want to be able to find a stolen device doesn't mean you also want your data exfiltrated.
- csande17 2y ago
  The author also ships software on the Mac App Store that includes an option to sync settings via iCloud. Presumably they test it on their main user account to catch all the weird iCloud bugs that only occur if you use it frequently.
walterbell 2y ago
How does one download app security updates without login? It's usually possible to login via the App Store, without logging into iCloud.
- justinclift 2y ago
  Yeah, that's the same setup I use. An Apple account for our dev membership and being able to download stuff (ie Xcode), but no iCloud usage at all. Neither need nor want iCloud anything.

rock_artist 2y ago

I don’t expect bug free software. But I do expect Apple to do minimal tests of the toggled off cases. It’s one of the biggest companies. Why can they test minimum trivial QA workflows? Why there’s always this bug where some toggle is broken resulting unintended data to be sent or downloaded?

doubled112 2y ago
I know I’m supposed to attribute things like this to incompetence, not malice, but how many times can a similar mistake repeat before it is not a mistake? Seems similar to how Windows settings “accidentally” revert to the less private ones.
- rock_artist 2y ago
  With Apple, many times it's just bad QA. Just like you can assume they QA iMessage much more than standard SMS since this is what "they use" :) With Microsoft, every update I get this wizard that tries to trick me to put OneDrive, trial Office and other things. and... one in a few update a new dark pattern is being added. So it's not a bug... it's a feature from their perspective.

upon_drumhead 2y ago

I don't really understand the folks that use the platform and then talk about how completely untrustworthy it is.

ben_w 2y ago
Pick your poison, everything else is also broken.
- upon_drumhead 2y ago
  Sure, but if you fully believe that the platform is untrustworthy, that seems like the ultimate dealbreaker for someone who is concerned about their data privacy. It's the juxtaposition of "I don't trust this platform at all" and "I put my data that must remain private on it" that I don't understand.
  - dkarras 2y ago
    Trusthworthy has two meanings here. I trust that Apple does have no intention to look into my private data. I think they'd rather have no way of getting into it while providing the services as that minimizes their liability. In that sense they are trustworthy. But you might not trust them to be secure enough to store that data. Or maybe it has nothing to do with Apple, maybe you don't want your keychain in the "cloud" ever. I trust Apple does not intend to be nefarious, I don't trust (the security of) any "cloud" to store sensitive data. Those are not conflicting positions to be in.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ric129 2y ago
There's an inherent trade-off in everything Besides, in this case.. it does not help that you'd also have to exchange hardware
asadotzler 2y ago
Because this particular untrustworthiness manifested after the user adopted the platform. I don't really understand corporate bootlicking either, but I can at least take a minute to think about it before posting nonsense.

pomian 2y ago

That's great you posted this information. As someone who helps various other people with their computers, and a lot of them Macs, it's hard to stay on top of all nuances of trying to keep secure and private. Apple keeps doing things that are more Microsoft like, all the time. It is becoming extremely difficult to keep your own data, on your own machine.

walterbell 2y ago
Asahi Linux on Apple Silicon is increasingly attractive.
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  Unfortunately no support for M3 MBPs yet
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  Is it possible to install without mac os and/or internet access yet?
  - TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
    You can do this if you effectively disable Secure Boot. The highest boot security setting, which ships as the default, requires an install-time certificate check.
- firecall 2y ago
  Hopefully we will get good Linux support on those new ARM PCs! If it's not here already - I dont really follow the space :-)
  - walterbell 2y ago
    Upstream Linux is progressing, hopefully at least one major PC OEM invests in official Linux support with Ubuntu, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479941. If Apple allows VMs on iPad Pro in iOS 18, it might take some wind out of Oryon sails, but with Nvidia, Mediatek and maybe AMD joining the Arm train in the coming year, real competition lies ahead. A repairable Arm laptop from Framework would be great.

II2II 2y ago

> why don't I just "go with the flow", adopt iCloud Keychain and passkeys? I don't like the "on principle" response since a lot of people will end up thinking, "oh, so it doesn't really matter." Even the author's elaboration could lead to responses like: "they are control freaks," or "they are paranoid." In my case, the answer is simple: I have access to systems that contain confidential information about other people. Protecting their data is my responsibility. While I have little doubt that Apple (and other vendors that provide similar services) do their best to guarantee the security of these products, their centralized nature and potential value of the data it leads to make them very juicy targets.

andrewaylett 2y ago
I suspect that Apple (and Google) are going to be better at maintaining my privacy (at least from anyone who isn't Apple (or Google, respectively)) than I am. For the record, there's plenty of data I wouldn't want to give either company (especially Google) but the answer there is also fairly straightforward: I don't put my passwords into my iCloud Keychain. Or, for that matter, into Google's password manager.
- dijit 2y ago
  I am your government. I am your doctor. I am your lawyer. I don't trust any company, let alone a foreign controlled one to have authorised access to my accounts as me. I would be held accountable if they were exposed and they sufficiently covered their tracks (and they are incentivised to try). Why should I brazenly permit this? (for the record, as a private individual I am using iCloud keychain, and for work I use 1password with its online storage: however I just make video games, I don’t have the power to destroy lives, nor do I have a responsibility to avoid it; I am merely pointing out that perfect being the enemy of good is not always good enough for everyone.)
  - II2II 2y ago
    > I don't trust any company It does not have to be a matter of trust. People make mistakes. The wrong mistake can lead to a vulnerability. Technology advances. What was considered secure 20 years ago is not considered secure today. Companies change hands and have changes in leadership. Then there is the question of: what does trusting a company mean? Their actions are the result of a multitude of minds, not a singular one.

can16358p 2y ago

While not directly related to OP's issue, after using Apple Watch Ultra and seeing how buggy and crappy everything about it is for a several months with literally zero fixes (not just me, but several friends who has Ultra too), I'm convinced that QA at Apple is run by primate apes. There is no sensible explanation that a flagship device can be full of bugs and inferior quality to its 3-year older non-flagship counterparts.

SahAssar 2y ago
> I'm convinced that QA at Apple is run by primate apes. If you yourself is not a primate ape I would be surprised and call every news agency available to tell them a new species is using written language and the internet.
- awesomeMilou 2y ago
  I tried to report issues with a broken VP9 decoder causing system instability in MediaToolBox on my Mac Mini but I need to pay 100$ to even get a chance for an Apple tech to see this issue in their developer forums (not that they engage much with their developer community at all). Apple is shipping broken software left and right ever since the ARM transition and it's become noticeable.
  - SahAssar 2y ago
    I was mostly replying to the implication that apple would be using anything other than primate apes for QA. What other species/order than primate apes do you think would be suitable for apple QA?
  - dwaite 2y ago
    You are as likely to have an Apple engineer create a bug report for you on Apple's forums as you are here. http://feedbackassistant.apple.com http://feedbackassistant.apple.com is where you file such requests. Just keep in mind that the wall they have between public and internal systems means you may not get updates unless you periodically ask for them.

walterbell 2y ago

For maximum data isolation of hardware devices from Apple: - avoid storing anything on iCloud - disable iCloud via MDM / Apple Configurator policy profile - router block Apple network (17.0.0.0/8) connections - router block Apple CDNs via dnsmasq wildcard domains - router allow Apple servers for notifications and app/OS updates - login via App Store only, not Settings/iCloud Apple list by service: https://support.apple.com/en-us/101555 https://support.apple.com/en-us/101555

zelphirkalt 2y ago
You also might need to: - never take your precious Apple laptop outside - somehow make sure there is no other open WLAN nearby
- walterbell 2y ago
  Mobile firewall options include Little Snitch on macOS, VPN/tailscale on iOS/iPad to home router, or an LTE travel router. If using a travel router, Apple Configurator can limit Wi-Fi SSIDs. There are claims that some Apple traffic can bypass on-device iOS VPNs.
  - zelphirkalt 2y ago
    How do you ensure that the OS does not by itself connect to a random open WLAN, when you cannot trust the OS?
    - walterbell 2y ago
      > when you cannot trust the OS The list above is not about distrusting the vendor or OS, it's about leveraging the vendor's officially published statements of behavior (e.g. HTTPS network traffic identified by PKI certificates tied to vendor's legal identity), used in contracts with enterprise customers that have competent lawyers, for the benefit of smaller customers. MDM policy can be configured to narrow the vendor's documented claims of software+hardware behavior. Narrowed claims are cheaper to verify empirically. If evidence can be found that MDM policy is not being enforced, then the pool of affected parties grows from powerless individuals to a class action (Apple has paid millions in the past) and/or large enterprises who use MDM to protect confidential enterprise data. > How do you ensure that the OS does not by itself connect to a random open WLAN In the case of Wi-Fi, MDM and Apple Configurator can configure device policy to connect only to approved SSIDs + a null list of approved SSIDs. To validate enforcement of this WiFi policy, the device can be placed in a small faraday box (commercial < $1000, DIY < $100) that blocks external RF, with an SDR that records all internal RF traffic for analysis. For a device with a null list of approved SSIDs, there should be zero Wi-Fi traffic from the baseband radio. Another option for MDM policy enforcement validation is to use a virtual iOS/macOS instance, where a hypervisor can perform live behavioral analysis of OS execution paths. Any unexpected behavior can be further investigated by reverse engineering of non-encrypted OS firmware binaries. Corellium offers a hosted service for virtualized iOS analysis, https://www.corellium.com https://www.corellium.com. They won their legal conflict with Apple. Finally, a third option is to modify the hardware device to disable unwanted radios, using only a wired network connection via USB. Past news articles have covered expensive modifications of commercial Apple hardware, for use by governments and companies in facilities where wireless networks were not allowed.

macintux 2y ago

Discussion from the previous blog post, a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40409290 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40409290

peppertree 2y ago

What are the best alternatives besides cloud keychains. Coming from sharing same password for multiple accounts, cloud keychain has been step up for me security wise. I'm honestly curious what are the better alternatives.

readams 2y ago
Something independent and cross platform like bitwarden.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
walterbell 2y ago
iOS/macOS/Win/Android Codebook, https://www.zetetic.net/codebook/ https://www.zetetic.net/codebook/ - no subscription - open-source encryption (SQLCipher) - device-to-device encrypted sync via ethernet/wifi, dropbox, google drive - indie US developer, lineage to 1998 STRIP on PalmPilot - TOTP 2FA authenticator - sync encrypted notes/images 1999, http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/30/palm.tools.idg/ http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/30/palm.tools.idg/ > Secure Tool for Recalling Important Passwords (STRIP). STRIP uses heavy-duty, 128-bit triple-Data Encryption Standard to store information, and that means any information -- credit-card numbers, Web site accounts and voice-mail access codes. STRIP (Zetetic Enterprises, free) is also a great tool for IT managers who administer distributed environments. It can random-generate complex passwords and allows account information to be beamed between Palms, so the IT staff can stay up-to-date.
nc0 2y ago
1Password is reputed. Or KeepassXC if you prefer something to self-host

crazygringo 2y ago

Funny, I just checked and my iCloud keychain is not enabled. I've had it off for years (always?), and definitely upgraded to Sonoma when it prompted me, and it didn't re-enable it for me. My System Settings > Passwords says "Turn on iCloud Keychain" with two buttons "Not Now" and "Enable". (No idea what why there's a button "Not Now"?) But I don't use Keychain at all, I use a third-party password manager. At some points I'm sure Keychain has asked me if I wanted to save various passwords in Keychain and I've always said no. And it hasn't bugged me about it in a long time. I wonder why OP's systems are turning it on when mine didn't?

m463 2y ago

What can make you more aware of apple's practices is to enable Little Snitch. It's not perfect, but it monitors what process on your system wants to make what network connection. What appalled me was that even when adding a LOCAL email account, accountsd tries to phone home to apple. Apple is phoning home in ways it never should.

TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
Agreed. Though for that specific feature, Apple operates a lookup service that Mail uses to attempt to automatically configure your SMTP and IMAP/POP settings. It would be nice if it asked permission first.

IndySun 2y ago

We know a software 'off' is not a definitive off. So it is, imho, and has been for a long time, extremely safe to assume that Apple takes all data from all devices as often and as much as it can even when things are 'turned off'. Apple does it very obviously with settings on podcast sync or music artwork, blatantly having those off settings turn on after any update. LittleSnitch and the like also point to nannying tickles. I am equally blood boiled, like LapCatSoftware, and would applaud a huge fine from either the USA gov or the EU or both. Apple MUST address this. The privacy mask is slipping in full view of more public.