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Tesla Owners Get Only 64% of EPA Range After Just Three Years: Study

33 points by peutetre 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Shekelphile 2y ago
A new tesla won't even get it's EPA range on first drive. It's a well known marketing fraud tesla does that other brands haven't yet begun to participate in.
- thechao 2y ago
  My Y was advertised at ~280 miles (the iron battery), which is precisely what I'd get F-E. I generally drive only the middle 60%: about 160–170 miles. This aligns with the experience of the 20 or so people I quizzed at work, before purchasing. Mind you, these were all S/X/Y & roadsters — no idea about the 3d.
  - gnfargbl 2y ago
    I have the same car as you. Mine does 220 miles full-empty when driven 70mph on the UK motorway. To get 280 mikes from a 59kW battery you would need to be achieving 210Wh/mi average. I can't get that, at any speed.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  It'll easily get the EPA range of all you do is city driving.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
tahoeskibum 2y ago
My own experience was different: I was getting 89% of EPA range after 175K miles. I wonder if they are doing an apples to apples comparison: comparing EPA miles with EPA miles or are they talking about real miles? Actual mileage varies a lot depending upon driving conditions e.g., doing 75 mph with AC at full blast will dramatically reduce mileage. I think that the real issue is the EPA methodology. My wife has a Hyundai Kona EV, it has the same issue that real life mileage is worse than EPA mileage.
Tagbert 2y ago
That is a misleading article title. The vehicles tested originally got about 70% of their EPA estimated range in highway driving. After 3 years that was down to 64%. Since they clearly were never at 100%, the actual drop in range was much smaller than the 64% would suggest. Saying that they lost 8% over 3 years doesn’t sound as dramatic as saying that they only had 64% remaining. Gotta get those click.
- searealist 2y ago
  And Tesla's warranty allows a 30% reduction over 8 years or 100,000 miles. This is actually a good result.
  - MOARDONGZPLZ 2y ago
    It is not a good result simply because Tesla’s warranty allows this…
    - garyfirestorm 2y ago
      Why is it ok to report 100% range capability but deliver only 70/64%
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        Someone 2y ago
        More drag I see as a valid reason, but less regenerative breaking? There would be less breaking, period, and I don’t see why breaking on highways couldn’t typically be regenerative. Can you explain?
    - searealist 2y ago
      It's 1.4x better than what they advertise. Take that how you will.
- 2y ago
Towaway69 2y ago
[flagged]
blindriver 2y ago
Yep. I have the model y performance, 2.5 years old with 36k miles and my max 100% range is about 270 miles, down from over 300. And I will routinely lose 50 miles driving 35 miles in the morning. There should be a class action lawsuit or something.
- dzhiurgis 2y ago
  That’s 10% degradation. How does it compare with other cars? Don’t floor it so much and it will not degrade like that. Plus indicator on dashboard is pointless as it’s highly subjective to weather and other conditions.
  - blindriver 2y ago
    It's 15% degradation at the very least, and the maximum mileage itself is completely unreliable. If it says 270 miles, it seems like it's actually 230-240.
    - dzhiurgis 2y ago
      > It's 15% degradation at the very least Math ain't mathin > actually 230-240 Thats close to warrantied limit. You could trivially test actual degradation via service menu. 5% degradation is normal for all batteries. For performance car, esp if you supercharge lots and keep it full at 100% lots - I wouldn't be surprised for higher degradation.
nimbius 2y ago
im a diesel engine mechanic by trade here, and I empathize with Tesla owners. We get all sorts of big shiny new trucks in our shop, and ever one of them touts jaw-dropping mileage figures. Customers typically come pounding down our door after a year or two demanding we overhaul their expensive new Mack or Peterbuilt because "the mileage aint there." We cannot do anything to fix it most of the time. The problem starts between your foot and the pedal, at least in the good ole USA. Most americans rarely follow the speed limit, they dont use their cruise control, and they dont practice defensive driving at all. Jackrabbit starts at the red light, hard braking, acceleration to overtake instead of "underpassing" to enter a lane, and insisting they can maintain speed at any grade and at any elevation, mileage be damned. flooring it up a hill, for example. oh, and dont forget lots and lots of climate control...that cabin is 65 degrees in the summer or they just wont drive. Id be really shocked if any of these 3 year tesla owners could pass a CDL course, remembered their turn signals, or even bothered to check their blind spots or tire pressure and wear.
- vipshek 2y ago
  Just to clarify, are you saying these are relatively new BEV trucks coming into your shop? If so, do the mileage issues usually boil to battery degradation due to driver behavior as you’re suggesting, or is it because the EPA rated mileage was unrealistic in the first place? Or both?
- pennybanks 2y ago
  why would you expect a tesla owner to pass a CDL? or why would they even want one. and what does diesel owners and tesla owners have anything to do with each other lol. and wouldnt having a ev then make it more comfortable or more efficient to drive if americans have tendencies that youre describing?
evnc 2y ago
Doesn’t this effect happen with EVs generally, not just Teslas? (I don’t particularly mean to defend Tesla here, but I wonder if this might be misleading)
azov 2y ago
In addition to misleading title, note that the graphs in the article neither start at zero nor reach 100%. They are totally doing it by the book [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics
fuzzbazz 2y ago
> The basic EPA testing protocol gets it wrong for all EVs. > It doesn't factor in temperature changes or driving above 60 miles per hour Well, there's the problem, drag increases with the square of speed and temperature affects battery capacity. Maybe they tested with the AC turned off too.
instagib 2y ago
EPA range is tested on a dynamometer in a lab and not outside! (0) It’s data from their fleet in their area of usage. They want to nitpick the EPA range as not being as relevant to them or well anyone. EPA range versus average personal car usage is a different topic. It’s good to have this relevant ‘not my car’ driving style range available for company fleets to take into consideration. My company tracks many vehicle statistics and is particularly interested in idling hours as its rough on vehicles but necessary for the job. Also, in the article they list 73% for model 3 performance. 230/315 miles range. There is a list of things that work vehicles are used as that don’t conform to the EPA testing standards. Each vehicle could be fully loaded with passengers and equipment driving to remote mountain equipment sites in any conditions with the worst rolling resistance wheel/tire combination. Some take the electric vehicle or well any of their vehicles much too personally. 0. https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fuel-economy-and-ev-range-testing https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fuel-economy-and-ev-range-...
sunflowerfly 2y ago
The takeaway for me is the EPA needs to change how they calculate range.

33 points by peutetre 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

A new tesla won't even get it's EPA range on first drive. It's a well known marketing fraud tesla does that other brands haven't yet begun to participate in.

thechao 2y ago
My Y was advertised at ~280 miles (the iron battery), which is precisely what I'd get F-E. I generally drive only the middle 60%: about 160–170 miles. This aligns with the experience of the 20 or so people I quizzed at work, before purchasing. Mind you, these were all S/X/Y & roadsters — no idea about the 3d.
- gnfargbl 2y ago
  I have the same car as you. Mine does 220 miles full-empty when driven 70mph on the UK motorway. To get 280 mikes from a 59kW battery you would need to be achieving 210Wh/mi average. I can't get that, at any speed.
bryanlarsen 2y ago
It'll easily get the EPA range of all you do is city driving.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

tahoeskibum 2y ago

My own experience was different: I was getting 89% of EPA range after 175K miles. I wonder if they are doing an apples to apples comparison: comparing EPA miles with EPA miles or are they talking about real miles? Actual mileage varies a lot depending upon driving conditions e.g., doing 75 mph with AC at full blast will dramatically reduce mileage. I think that the real issue is the EPA methodology. My wife has a Hyundai Kona EV, it has the same issue that real life mileage is worse than EPA mileage.

Tagbert 2y ago

That is a misleading article title. The vehicles tested originally got about 70% of their EPA estimated range in highway driving. After 3 years that was down to 64%. Since they clearly were never at 100%, the actual drop in range was much smaller than the 64% would suggest. Saying that they lost 8% over 3 years doesn’t sound as dramatic as saying that they only had 64% remaining. Gotta get those click.

searealist 2y ago
And Tesla's warranty allows a 30% reduction over 8 years or 100,000 miles. This is actually a good result.
- MOARDONGZPLZ 2y ago
  It is not a good result simply because Tesla’s warranty allows this…
  - garyfirestorm 2y ago
    Why is it ok to report 100% range capability but deliver only 70/64%
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
      - Someone 2y ago
        More drag I see as a valid reason, but less regenerative breaking? There would be less breaking, period, and I don’t see why breaking on highways couldn’t typically be regenerative. Can you explain?
  - searealist 2y ago
    It's 1.4x better than what they advertise. Take that how you will.
2y ago

Towaway69 2y ago

[flagged]

blindriver 2y ago

Yep. I have the model y performance, 2.5 years old with 36k miles and my max 100% range is about 270 miles, down from over 300. And I will routinely lose 50 miles driving 35 miles in the morning. There should be a class action lawsuit or something.

dzhiurgis 2y ago
That’s 10% degradation. How does it compare with other cars? Don’t floor it so much and it will not degrade like that. Plus indicator on dashboard is pointless as it’s highly subjective to weather and other conditions.
- blindriver 2y ago
  It's 15% degradation at the very least, and the maximum mileage itself is completely unreliable. If it says 270 miles, it seems like it's actually 230-240.
  - dzhiurgis 2y ago
    > It's 15% degradation at the very least Math ain't mathin > actually 230-240 Thats close to warrantied limit. You could trivially test actual degradation via service menu. 5% degradation is normal for all batteries. For performance car, esp if you supercharge lots and keep it full at 100% lots - I wouldn't be surprised for higher degradation.

nimbius 2y ago

im a diesel engine mechanic by trade here, and I empathize with Tesla owners. We get all sorts of big shiny new trucks in our shop, and ever one of them touts jaw-dropping mileage figures. Customers typically come pounding down our door after a year or two demanding we overhaul their expensive new Mack or Peterbuilt because "the mileage aint there." We cannot do anything to fix it most of the time. The problem starts between your foot and the pedal, at least in the good ole USA. Most americans rarely follow the speed limit, they dont use their cruise control, and they dont practice defensive driving at all. Jackrabbit starts at the red light, hard braking, acceleration to overtake instead of "underpassing" to enter a lane, and insisting they can maintain speed at any grade and at any elevation, mileage be damned. flooring it up a hill, for example. oh, and dont forget lots and lots of climate control...that cabin is 65 degrees in the summer or they just wont drive. Id be really shocked if any of these 3 year tesla owners could pass a CDL course, remembered their turn signals, or even bothered to check their blind spots or tire pressure and wear.

vipshek 2y ago
Just to clarify, are you saying these are relatively new BEV trucks coming into your shop? If so, do the mileage issues usually boil to battery degradation due to driver behavior as you’re suggesting, or is it because the EPA rated mileage was unrealistic in the first place? Or both?
pennybanks 2y ago
why would you expect a tesla owner to pass a CDL? or why would they even want one. and what does diesel owners and tesla owners have anything to do with each other lol. and wouldnt having a ev then make it more comfortable or more efficient to drive if americans have tendencies that youre describing?

evnc 2y ago

Doesn’t this effect happen with EVs generally, not just Teslas? (I don’t particularly mean to defend Tesla here, but I wonder if this might be misleading)

azov 2y ago

In addition to misleading title, note that the graphs in the article neither start at zero nor reach 100%. They are totally doing it by the book [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics

fuzzbazz 2y ago

> The basic EPA testing protocol gets it wrong for all EVs. > It doesn't factor in temperature changes or driving above 60 miles per hour Well, there's the problem, drag increases with the square of speed and temperature affects battery capacity. Maybe they tested with the AC turned off too.

instagib 2y ago

EPA range is tested on a dynamometer in a lab and not outside! (0) It’s data from their fleet in their area of usage. They want to nitpick the EPA range as not being as relevant to them or well anyone. EPA range versus average personal car usage is a different topic. It’s good to have this relevant ‘not my car’ driving style range available for company fleets to take into consideration. My company tracks many vehicle statistics and is particularly interested in idling hours as its rough on vehicles but necessary for the job. Also, in the article they list 73% for model 3 performance. 230/315 miles range. There is a list of things that work vehicles are used as that don’t conform to the EPA testing standards. Each vehicle could be fully loaded with passengers and equipment driving to remote mountain equipment sites in any conditions with the worst rolling resistance wheel/tire combination. Some take the electric vehicle or well any of their vehicles much too personally. 0. https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fuel-economy-and-ev-range-testing https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fuel-economy-and-ev-range-...

sunflowerfly 2y ago

The takeaway for me is the EPA needs to change how they calculate range.