7 ms·

Ian Clarke explains the next generation of Freenet [video] (2023)

86 points by janandonly 2y ago

gustavus 2y ago
I love freenet as we continue to see the growth of authoritative bodies attempt to control the Internet I think it will become more and more important. The other thing I love about freenet is it feels exactly like using the Internet in the late 90's in almost every way. Same speeds, same simple pages, same crazy whackos spouting conspiracy theories about how JFK shot first, it really is a time capsule that I love.
- immibis 2y ago
  The second freenet has absolutely no relation to the first one. Only the name was stolen.
  - sanity 2y ago
    No relation except that it's created by the same person tackling the same problem (in a more general way) and sharing many underlying concepts like small world networking. The FAQ covers the main differences: https://freenet.org/faq#faq-3 https://freenet.org/faq#faq-3
    - dariusj18 2y ago
      I assume they may be referring to freenets that was an early method of accessing the internet for free, not requiring AOL or some other service for access. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-net https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-net ex. https://naples.net/ https://naples.net/
      - sanity 2y ago
        True, they might be referring to that, although if so this is the first time I’ve heard such a complaint in 25 years. The usage of the term "free-net" to describe early methods of free internet access was quite obscure even in 1999, I only learned of it years after starting Freenet.
        tejtm 2y ago
        "Freenet" already had a very specific meaning in the early ninities which could only be obscure if one was not paying attention. I still maintain my freenet email address from 1991. I recommend you find your own name for your very comendable project, swiping an existing one is confusing and somewhat dodgy.
        schoen 2y ago
        The particular swiping in question happened a couple of decades ago now (I agree that it was a confusing ambiguity at the time); the proposed swiping now could also be a confusing ambiguity, but would be by the same people who were responsible for the prior swiping.
        sanity 2y ago
        I disagree that any "swiping" took place as I wasn't aware of the prior meaning because hardly anyone was using it in 1999, nor did anyone bring it up at the time. Similarly, no swiping took place more recently unless you think using the name of my own project is "swiping". I address this in more detail in a recent [1] reddit comment. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Freenet/comments/1d05zw9/questions_about_freenet_vs_hyphanet/l5p5mbx/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Freenet/comments/1d05zw9/questions_...
        schoen 2y ago
        I meant to be partly tongue-in-cheek in saying that, although this doesn't come through well in text, but I do share the present-day concern about people potentially becoming confused.
        sanity 2y ago
        The confusion is a risk but I think it will diminish over time, particularly once we launch the new network.
        iforgotpassword 2y ago
sanity 2y ago
I didn't post this but I'm the guy in the video dressed like Tom Scott. This talk was 8 months ago but everything is still relevant. We're very close to an initial release which I'll (of course) announce on HN. In the meantime I'm happy to answer any questions. You can learn more about Freenet at https://freenet.org/ https://freenet.org/.
- onlytime 2y ago
  Could you change the name? Since there hasn't been a release yet, it would break nothing, and there's already a project (that you also started, but that is used by more people, since it is released software) that was named Freenet, that would probably like its name back. I like this new project though. It seems cool.
  - duskwuff 2y ago
    Seconding this. Reusing the name of a longstanding software project for a similar but distinct project with wildly different security guarantees is hazardous; it means that existing documentation which directs people to use "Freenet" in a specific way may expose them to unexpected risks. Please reconsider.
    - sambazi 2y ago
      tribbling this. 'freenet' is an isp in my country, and if this does not hint at it enough, too generic of a term
    - sanity 2y ago
      The name belongs to the non-profit and not a specific codebase, the previous codebase had itself a number of fundamental rewrites (eg. with the 0.7 release) and retained the name Freenet through them - this is no different. The name change decision was made over a year ago after a long debate and very careful consideration. There is risk but risk is inevitable if you want to make progress.
      - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
generalizations 2y ago
From the FAQ about the differences: https://freenet.org/faq#faq-3 https://freenet.org/faq#faq-3 > While the previous version was designed with a focus on anonymity, the current version does not offer built-in anonymity but allows for a choice of anonymizing systems to be layered on top. I wonder why this choice was made. To me it's concerning...seemed like one of the big draws of freenet was the anonymous nature of it, and it seems like this would cause some fragmentation if there's multiple options to choose from.
- giantg2 2y ago
  I didn't think the original was truly anonymous without other systems being used anyways. Probably better to just allow integration with other systems since the methods of staying anonymous will change over time.
- sambazi 2y ago
  will be interesting to know if this is a bait and switch or simply a concession to the majority of users that just want free stuff
  - sanity 2y ago
    Freenet is free as in free speech, not free beer. The goal is to provide a platform that allows people to build sophisticated decentralized systems to replace today's centralized systems. The original Freenet architecture wasn't flexible enough to do this.
- sanity 2y ago
  > I wonder why this choice was made. Because it's a better architecture. There are numerous different approaches to anonymity, each with different pros and cons (mixnets, dining cryptographers, etc). It's better to have a system that can offer a choice of anonymity mechanisms without locking users into one approach. The new Freenet is a platform for building interoperable decentralized systems. Some of these systems can provide anonymity, and can be integrated into other systems if the creators of those systems choose to do so.
janzer 2y ago
FYI, the original freenet can now apparently be found under the name hyphanet[1]. Although it seems there has been no activity since the rename happened almost a year ago? 1. https://www.hyphanet.org/freenet-renamed-to-hyphanet.html https://www.hyphanet.org/freenet-renamed-to-hyphanet.html
- omoikane 2y ago
  The original Freenet (with some focus on anonymity) is rebranded Hyphanet, and the new version (which does not offer built-in anonymity) is now the official Freenet. What a mess.
  - sambazi 2y ago
    does not inspire confidence indeed
  - iforgotpassword 2y ago
    And haven't there already been at least two reasonably popular but incompatible versions before? I think 0.5 was still used for quite a while when 0.7 was around. They offered similar services and anonymity concepts though.
    - ArneBab 2y ago
      0.5 didn’t support a friend-to-friend structure, so the privacy protection possible with it was much lower than with 0.7 released in 2007. Since 2007 Freenet / Hyphanet stayed compatible with content from previous versions. A summary of the changes since 2007 can be found in the presentation “Freenet / Hyphanet: the long game”: https://www.draketo.de/software/freenet-hyphanet-the-long-game-de--google-translated-en.pdf https://www.draketo.de/software/freenet-hyphanet-the-long-ga... This is auto-translated from the German original which was presented at SUMA e.V.: https://www.draketo.de/software/freenet-hyphanet-the-long-game-de https://www.draketo.de/software/freenet-hyphanet-the-long-ga... https://suma-ev.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/SUMA-Kongress22-freenet.webm https://suma-ev.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/SUMA-Kongress2...
  - 2y ago
usernamistaken 2y ago
Often a lot of the chat is just people who read the headline but this discussion seems to be just people who read the word 'freenet' and stopped right there. The architecture is really interesting and pretty simple for a distributed system. It's nicely presented in the video too. The examples offered in the docs are very specific to builders of a globally distributed system but some examples of how you might go about building some useful day to day applications would be handy.
- sanity 2y ago
  Thank you. I agree about needing more practical examples. We are working on this, we do have a simple email app [1] and recently completed a more "hello world" type example freenet-ping [2]. Right now our focus is on getting the network up and running (hopefully we're days away - just tracking down some final bugs), but some good practical example apps is high on our todo list. [1] https://github.com/freenet/freenet-core/tree/main/apps/freenet-email-app https://github.com/freenet/freenet-core/tree/main/apps/freen... [2] https://github.com/freenet/freenet-core/tree/main/apps/freenet-ping https://github.com/freenet/freenet-core/tree/main/apps/freen...

86 points by janandonly 2y ago

I love freenet as we continue to see the growth of authoritative bodies attempt to control the Internet I think it will become more and more important. The other thing I love about freenet is it feels exactly like using the Internet in the late 90's in almost every way. Same speeds, same simple pages, same crazy whackos spouting conspiracy theories about how JFK shot first, it really is a time capsule that I love.

immibis 2y ago
The second freenet has absolutely no relation to the first one. Only the name was stolen.
- sanity 2y ago
  No relation except that it's created by the same person tackling the same problem (in a more general way) and sharing many underlying concepts like small world networking. The FAQ covers the main differences: https://freenet.org/faq#faq-3 https://freenet.org/faq#faq-3
  - dariusj18 2y ago
    I assume they may be referring to freenets that was an early method of accessing the internet for free, not requiring AOL or some other service for access. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-net https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-net ex. https://naples.net/ https://naples.net/
    - sanity 2y ago
      True, they might be referring to that, although if so this is the first time I’ve heard such a complaint in 25 years. The usage of the term "free-net" to describe early methods of free internet access was quite obscure even in 1999, I only learned of it years after starting Freenet.
      - tejtm 2y ago
        "Freenet" already had a very specific meaning in the early ninities which could only be obscure if one was not paying attention. I still maintain my freenet email address from 1991. I recommend you find your own name for your very comendable project, swiping an existing one is confusing and somewhat dodgy.
        schoen 2y ago
        The particular swiping in question happened a couple of decades ago now (I agree that it was a confusing ambiguity at the time); the proposed swiping now could also be a confusing ambiguity, but would be by the same people who were responsible for the prior swiping.
        sanity 2y ago
        I disagree that any "swiping" took place as I wasn't aware of the prior meaning because hardly anyone was using it in 1999, nor did anyone bring it up at the time. Similarly, no swiping took place more recently unless you think using the name of my own project is "swiping". I address this in more detail in a recent [1] reddit comment. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Freenet/comments/1d05zw9/questions_about_freenet_vs_hyphanet/l5p5mbx/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Freenet/comments/1d05zw9/questions_...
        schoen 2y ago
        I meant to be partly tongue-in-cheek in saying that, although this doesn't come through well in text, but I do share the present-day concern about people potentially becoming confused.
        sanity 2y ago
        The confusion is a risk but I think it will diminish over time, particularly once we launch the new network.
        iforgotpassword 2y ago

sanity 2y ago

I didn't post this but I'm the guy in the video dressed like Tom Scott. This talk was 8 months ago but everything is still relevant. We're very close to an initial release which I'll (of course) announce on HN. In the meantime I'm happy to answer any questions. You can learn more about Freenet at https://freenet.org/ https://freenet.org/.

onlytime 2y ago
Could you change the name? Since there hasn't been a release yet, it would break nothing, and there's already a project (that you also started, but that is used by more people, since it is released software) that was named Freenet, that would probably like its name back. I like this new project though. It seems cool.
- duskwuff 2y ago
  Seconding this. Reusing the name of a longstanding software project for a similar but distinct project with wildly different security guarantees is hazardous; it means that existing documentation which directs people to use "Freenet" in a specific way may expose them to unexpected risks. Please reconsider.
  - sambazi 2y ago
    tribbling this. 'freenet' is an isp in my country, and if this does not hint at it enough, too generic of a term
  - sanity 2y ago
    The name belongs to the non-profit and not a specific codebase, the previous codebase had itself a number of fundamental rewrites (eg. with the 0.7 release) and retained the name Freenet through them - this is no different. The name change decision was made over a year ago after a long debate and very careful consideration. There is risk but risk is inevitable if you want to make progress.
    - 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

generalizations 2y ago

From the FAQ about the differences: https://freenet.org/faq#faq-3 https://freenet.org/faq#faq-3 > While the previous version was designed with a focus on anonymity, the current version does not offer built-in anonymity but allows for a choice of anonymizing systems to be layered on top. I wonder why this choice was made. To me it's concerning...seemed like one of the big draws of freenet was the anonymous nature of it, and it seems like this would cause some fragmentation if there's multiple options to choose from.

giantg2 2y ago
I didn't think the original was truly anonymous without other systems being used anyways. Probably better to just allow integration with other systems since the methods of staying anonymous will change over time.
sambazi 2y ago
will be interesting to know if this is a bait and switch or simply a concession to the majority of users that just want free stuff
- sanity 2y ago
  Freenet is free as in free speech, not free beer. The goal is to provide a platform that allows people to build sophisticated decentralized systems to replace today's centralized systems. The original Freenet architecture wasn't flexible enough to do this.
sanity 2y ago
> I wonder why this choice was made. Because it's a better architecture. There are numerous different approaches to anonymity, each with different pros and cons (mixnets, dining cryptographers, etc). It's better to have a system that can offer a choice of anonymity mechanisms without locking users into one approach. The new Freenet is a platform for building interoperable decentralized systems. Some of these systems can provide anonymity, and can be integrated into other systems if the creators of those systems choose to do so.

janzer 2y ago

FYI, the original freenet can now apparently be found under the name hyphanet[1]. Although it seems there has been no activity since the rename happened almost a year ago? 1. https://www.hyphanet.org/freenet-renamed-to-hyphanet.html https://www.hyphanet.org/freenet-renamed-to-hyphanet.html

omoikane 2y ago
The original Freenet (with some focus on anonymity) is rebranded Hyphanet, and the new version (which does not offer built-in anonymity) is now the official Freenet. What a mess.
- sambazi 2y ago
  does not inspire confidence indeed
- iforgotpassword 2y ago
  And haven't there already been at least two reasonably popular but incompatible versions before? I think 0.5 was still used for quite a while when 0.7 was around. They offered similar services and anonymity concepts though.
  - ArneBab 2y ago
    0.5 didn’t support a friend-to-friend structure, so the privacy protection possible with it was much lower than with 0.7 released in 2007. Since 2007 Freenet / Hyphanet stayed compatible with content from previous versions. A summary of the changes since 2007 can be found in the presentation “Freenet / Hyphanet: the long game”: https://www.draketo.de/software/freenet-hyphanet-the-long-game-de--google-translated-en.pdf https://www.draketo.de/software/freenet-hyphanet-the-long-ga... This is auto-translated from the German original which was presented at SUMA e.V.: https://www.draketo.de/software/freenet-hyphanet-the-long-game-de https://www.draketo.de/software/freenet-hyphanet-the-long-ga... https://suma-ev.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/SUMA-Kongress22-freenet.webm https://suma-ev.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/SUMA-Kongress2...
- 2y ago

usernamistaken 2y ago

Often a lot of the chat is just people who read the headline but this discussion seems to be just people who read the word 'freenet' and stopped right there. The architecture is really interesting and pretty simple for a distributed system. It's nicely presented in the video too. The examples offered in the docs are very specific to builders of a globally distributed system but some examples of how you might go about building some useful day to day applications would be handy.

sanity 2y ago
Thank you. I agree about needing more practical examples. We are working on this, we do have a simple email app [1] and recently completed a more "hello world" type example freenet-ping [2]. Right now our focus is on getting the network up and running (hopefully we're days away - just tracking down some final bugs), but some good practical example apps is high on our todo list. [1] https://github.com/freenet/freenet-core/tree/main/apps/freenet-email-app https://github.com/freenet/freenet-core/tree/main/apps/freen... [2] https://github.com/freenet/freenet-core/tree/main/apps/freenet-ping https://github.com/freenet/freenet-core/tree/main/apps/freen...