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If you are running a startup, you should not go to a recruiter and ask for an engineering manager as an outside hire. You are likely to get someone totally inc

If you are running a startup, you should not go to a recruiter and ask for an engineering manager as an outside hire. You are likely to get someone totally incompetent, and if this is your first manager hire, it's almost guaranteed, given what's out there. You also run the risk of triggering an exodus of talent, since engineers will recognize this as the part where the bozos come in, and now the workplace isn't run by smart people who they can learn from. Instead you should notice the natural hierarchy that forms based on everyone's desire to build things. Some of your engineers are already deferring decisions to other engineers, and you just have to pick up on that as you develop a leveling system. That's where a hierarchy should come from if you insist on it. It sounds like this is already what's going on given that you have clumps of 3-4 engineers around leads. And the author even says "hierarchy is a property of self organizing systems". So clearly this system is self organizing and working. But the author has no skill for designing organizations, and doesn't know what to do if he can't hire managers and make it look like what he's used to. It sounds like a bad culture fit. The CEO needs a VP who isn't stamping out the same organization job after job, and can embrace and extend what is already working at this company.

pavel_lishin 2y ago
> Some of your engineers are already deferring decisions to other engineers But do those other engineers want to be managers? I've certainly picked up some of that work from time to time in my career, and yet if my boss told me, "congratulations, you're being promoted to manager!" I'd have to respond with, "congratulations, I quit."
- alphazard 2y ago
  Maybe they don't, but this is a good test for "qualified to be a decision maker". If other people want someone to help make decisions for them it's because they want the benefit of their prowess. You could either embrace this as the start of the hierarchy everyone is apparently so desperate to create. Or you could ignore this signal in favor of handshakes, smiles, buzzwords, or however else you intend to pick a manager from your outside funnel. Part of this reluctance is an aversion to the busy work that often comes with a manager title. Work that managers create for themselves and other managers to legitimize their roles, but which actually impedes progress, and annoys or alienates talent.
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    I do not agree with your premise that hiring a manager from outside of an organization is inherently doomed to failure.
    - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
      I definitely agree that it's not inherently doomed to failure, but I'm not sure the OP from the post would benefit from an external manager. Fundamentally, small companies that accomplish things tend to have relatively strong cultures, and external managers (by definition) are not necessarily part of that culture. I've seen an external manager cause loads of issues because of this, even when they come in with the best of intentions. In smaller companies, you are almost always much better off promoting internally for a number of reasons. Firstly, it demonstrates (assuming that you make the right person the manager) that there's a path for people on the team to progress. Secondly, they are already aware of the actual problems with the company, and (importantly) the kinds of solutions that are acceptable. I currently work for a small, fast-growing company and our external manager decided to rebuild a core system at the weekends and push it to prod. Now, the system is actually pretty good (I dislike it stylistically, but i have niche tastes). However, what this person didn't consider (because they were new) that the org was not going to give much (if any) time to move stuff over to this new system. As a result, we're about 50% of the way done 18 months in, and in the interim, we've had to not do a bunch of stuff that would actually improve our product. Like, I remember (and HN hate this company so it's unlikely to be listened to) when FB started getting really successful (2013-15), we ended up hiring a lot of Google/Amazon managers and leaders externally and probably through negligence, they ended up destroying a bunch of what made the culture great. Hiring bad managers is much, much worse than no managers, but if you promote an IC then they have a valid stepdown path if it doesn't work, which an external manager is less likely to have (or indeed, accept). And thus concludes my Ted Talk about avoiding external managers.
      - pavel_lishin 2y ago
        > And thus concludes my Ted Talk about avoiding external managers. This was a pretty good Ted Talk!
- _1_1_1_1_1_1_ 2y ago
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Balgair 2y ago
> You also run the risk of triggering an exodus of talent, since engineers will recognize this as the part where the bozos come in, and now the workplace isn't run by smart people who they can learn from. The phenomenon is known as 'the elves leaving middle earth', per a 2009 Steve Blank post: https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-earth-%E2%80%93-soda%E2%80%99s-are-no-longer-free/ https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear... Per Steve's post, the real wake-up call is typically some beancounter deciding to charge for the free sodas in the break room. But I would agree that hiring a bozo manager is equally as much of a wake up call.
- 6510 2y ago
  I one time quit a factory job after 1 day. They asked me why. It's simple, you have a coffee vending machine. This is simply to revealing. There are lots of assholes running companies but to put it on display like this is quite unusual, it means you are not even trying to hide it nor embarrassed by it. I need an employer who notices my effort and appreciates it or at least pretends to. My advice for you, after I leave, you go pick up a few boxes of pastries for your employees. You've never done this, correct? Then I gave him the military salute and left not waiting for an answer. Turned out he was the funny kind of blunt asshole. A year later I ran into someone still working there in that place where no one ever smiled. Apparently the boss got the boxes of pastries and told his employees it was my idea etc One employee told him I was right, I cant remember the last time you did anything nice because you never did, you are an asshole, you've always been, we should do this every week. It was long long ago but I'm sure they still eat pastries every week.
  - radiator 2y ago
    I agree that free coffee (AND tea - do not discriminate) is considerate. But pastries are unhealthy for the individuals and by extension also for the company.
    - em-bee 2y ago
      pastries are more unhealthy than coffee? well, i guess if it's decaf without sugar maybe.
BobaFloutist 2y ago
I don't know that I agree that a "managing engineer" is the same as a manager of engineers. Managers justifiably get a lot of flak, because management is fairly intangible, our society has decided to conflate authority and prestige with direction-setting, and there are just a huge number of incompetent managers. But anyone that's tried a multi-person project without management understands the value of management. Someone has to step up and manage, and if it's your best engineer, you're spending a pretty valuable resource (their time) on something someone else might be able to do better. Finding good managers is super hard, but a good manager can still be valuable, even though bad managers are frustratingly useless.
hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
Once upon a time™, I worked for a big name university's bioinformatics department. They hired a visiting PI without management experience to be their software engineering manager for a team of 5 SWEs. He immediately implemented control-freak-level policies in an agro/anxious, abrasive manner and 2 SWEs resigned before the email ink was even dry. Basic rules of staffing university departments: 0. Generally don't hire your family or friends. The assumption of nepotism will be hard to shake. 1. Blind resumes and interview candidates and have a hiring committee rather than giving jobs out preferentially by a single hiring manager unilaterally, because there is a human tendency to hire people unintentionally reinforcing propinquity biases.
drlemonpepper 2y ago
>Some of your engineers are already deferring decisions to other engineers are you saying the ones doing the deferring should be managers, or the ones being deferred to?
- alphazard 2y ago
  The engineers being asked for guidance should have more influence according to the organization's chain of command, since their influence is already being used voluntarily to the advantage of others. This happens in every organization and you can't really fake it. The alternative to asking another person for help is becoming a low-performing lone wolf. Given the choice, people choose to reveal who they believe is competent.

pavel_lishin 2y ago

> Some of your engineers are already deferring decisions to other engineers But do those other engineers want to be managers? I've certainly picked up some of that work from time to time in my career, and yet if my boss told me, "congratulations, you're being promoted to manager!" I'd have to respond with, "congratulations, I quit."

alphazard 2y ago
Maybe they don't, but this is a good test for "qualified to be a decision maker". If other people want someone to help make decisions for them it's because they want the benefit of their prowess. You could either embrace this as the start of the hierarchy everyone is apparently so desperate to create. Or you could ignore this signal in favor of handshakes, smiles, buzzwords, or however else you intend to pick a manager from your outside funnel. Part of this reluctance is an aversion to the busy work that often comes with a manager title. Work that managers create for themselves and other managers to legitimize their roles, but which actually impedes progress, and annoys or alienates talent.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  I do not agree with your premise that hiring a manager from outside of an organization is inherently doomed to failure.
  - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
    I definitely agree that it's not inherently doomed to failure, but I'm not sure the OP from the post would benefit from an external manager. Fundamentally, small companies that accomplish things tend to have relatively strong cultures, and external managers (by definition) are not necessarily part of that culture. I've seen an external manager cause loads of issues because of this, even when they come in with the best of intentions. In smaller companies, you are almost always much better off promoting internally for a number of reasons. Firstly, it demonstrates (assuming that you make the right person the manager) that there's a path for people on the team to progress. Secondly, they are already aware of the actual problems with the company, and (importantly) the kinds of solutions that are acceptable. I currently work for a small, fast-growing company and our external manager decided to rebuild a core system at the weekends and push it to prod. Now, the system is actually pretty good (I dislike it stylistically, but i have niche tastes). However, what this person didn't consider (because they were new) that the org was not going to give much (if any) time to move stuff over to this new system. As a result, we're about 50% of the way done 18 months in, and in the interim, we've had to not do a bunch of stuff that would actually improve our product. Like, I remember (and HN hate this company so it's unlikely to be listened to) when FB started getting really successful (2013-15), we ended up hiring a lot of Google/Amazon managers and leaders externally and probably through negligence, they ended up destroying a bunch of what made the culture great. Hiring bad managers is much, much worse than no managers, but if you promote an IC then they have a valid stepdown path if it doesn't work, which an external manager is less likely to have (or indeed, accept). And thus concludes my Ted Talk about avoiding external managers.
    - pavel_lishin 2y ago
      > And thus concludes my Ted Talk about avoiding external managers. This was a pretty good Ted Talk!
_1_1_1_1_1_1_ 2y ago
[dead]

Balgair 2y ago

> You also run the risk of triggering an exodus of talent, since engineers will recognize this as the part where the bozos come in, and now the workplace isn't run by smart people who they can learn from. The phenomenon is known as 'the elves leaving middle earth', per a 2009 Steve Blank post: https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-earth-%E2%80%93-soda%E2%80%99s-are-no-longer-free/ https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear... Per Steve's post, the real wake-up call is typically some beancounter deciding to charge for the free sodas in the break room. But I would agree that hiring a bozo manager is equally as much of a wake up call.

6510 2y ago
I one time quit a factory job after 1 day. They asked me why. It's simple, you have a coffee vending machine. This is simply to revealing. There are lots of assholes running companies but to put it on display like this is quite unusual, it means you are not even trying to hide it nor embarrassed by it. I need an employer who notices my effort and appreciates it or at least pretends to. My advice for you, after I leave, you go pick up a few boxes of pastries for your employees. You've never done this, correct? Then I gave him the military salute and left not waiting for an answer. Turned out he was the funny kind of blunt asshole. A year later I ran into someone still working there in that place where no one ever smiled. Apparently the boss got the boxes of pastries and told his employees it was my idea etc One employee told him I was right, I cant remember the last time you did anything nice because you never did, you are an asshole, you've always been, we should do this every week. It was long long ago but I'm sure they still eat pastries every week.
- radiator 2y ago
  I agree that free coffee (AND tea - do not discriminate) is considerate. But pastries are unhealthy for the individuals and by extension also for the company.
  - em-bee 2y ago
    pastries are more unhealthy than coffee? well, i guess if it's decaf without sugar maybe.

BobaFloutist 2y ago

I don't know that I agree that a "managing engineer" is the same as a manager of engineers. Managers justifiably get a lot of flak, because management is fairly intangible, our society has decided to conflate authority and prestige with direction-setting, and there are just a huge number of incompetent managers. But anyone that's tried a multi-person project without management understands the value of management. Someone has to step up and manage, and if it's your best engineer, you're spending a pretty valuable resource (their time) on something someone else might be able to do better. Finding good managers is super hard, but a good manager can still be valuable, even though bad managers are frustratingly useless.

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago

Once upon a time™, I worked for a big name university's bioinformatics department. They hired a visiting PI without management experience to be their software engineering manager for a team of 5 SWEs. He immediately implemented control-freak-level policies in an agro/anxious, abrasive manner and 2 SWEs resigned before the email ink was even dry. Basic rules of staffing university departments: 0. Generally don't hire your family or friends. The assumption of nepotism will be hard to shake. 1. Blind resumes and interview candidates and have a hiring committee rather than giving jobs out preferentially by a single hiring manager unilaterally, because there is a human tendency to hire people unintentionally reinforcing propinquity biases.

drlemonpepper 2y ago

>Some of your engineers are already deferring decisions to other engineers are you saying the ones doing the deferring should be managers, or the ones being deferred to?

alphazard 2y ago
The engineers being asked for guidance should have more influence according to the organization's chain of command, since their influence is already being used voluntarily to the advantage of others. This happens in every organization and you can't really fake it. The alternative to asking another person for help is becoming a low-performing lone wolf. Given the choice, people choose to reveal who they believe is competent.