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Managers can be friction. If they negotiate with other managers, then you have a game of telephone tag where engineering issues become 'resource' issues and the

Managers can be friction. If they negotiate with other managers, then you have a game of telephone tag where engineering issues become 'resource' issues and the work gets muddled in the conversation. I worked for a year with no engineering manager, no software director, no VP of Engineering. The most productive year of my group at that job. Brought out two new versions of our OS to support multi-processor configurations and use new memory modes.

belter 2y ago
> I worked for a year with no engineering manager, no software director, no VP of Engineering No you did not. You were the engineering manager
- mlinhares 2y ago
  I'm always surprised when people do not notice this. If you don't have a manager doing the management work for you, YOU are doing the work. At my current job we haven't had a product manager for quite a while, to the point that all engineers have just internalized that we are the product managers, so we frequently show up at meetings to drive product decisions, we talk with partners and everything and every once in a while it dawns on someone _this wasn't supposed to be our job_ but if we don't do it who's gonna do it?
  - bluGill 2y ago
    > this wasn't supposed to be our job I'm not sure if that is bad or not - while it is annoying to attend all those meetings, often you know the problem well enough that you can just build the right thing. You start to feel empowered to add this feature customers want because you know the customer
    - mlinhares 2y ago
      I don't think its bad per se, i do enjoy being closer to customers and all, but there's a lot of managing, calendaring, and meetings where I know someone else could be taking them instead of me (and I could focus on the stuff I do that bring more value to the business).
  - htrp 2y ago
    and you're able to deliver features that customers request, especially if they are low engineering lifts
- bluGill 2y ago
  If the total team was 5 or less (maybe 10) that is find - there isn't much overhead that a manager is needed for in the first place. It is also likely you won't have the "people" issues that a manager needs to deal with in those couple years. A larger team will have a lot of overhead that a manager can take care of for you. A larger or longer lasting team will have "people" issues that a manager should deal with.
- ghusto 2y ago
  You're presuming he performed managerial tasks, which presumes further that those tasks are unavoidable. It's difficult to imagine if you've only ever worked in places where this is evidently true, but that is only one way in which a company can work. You can also run a company of _hundreds_ of engineers who are all self-governing. If it can happen at least once (company I worked for), then it's repeatable and therefore a viable alternative.
- JoeAltmaier 2y ago
  Doublespeak. We did no budget meetings; we did no 'resource allocation' charts or plans. We all worked our butts off, harder than before because nobody needed our status reports so they could concatenate them and pass them up the chain to pretend they were doing something. The fact is, the work of an engineering manager is largely make-work. Something to justify a middle manager's salary.
evilduck 2y ago
> The most productive year of my group at that job. Brought out two new versions of our OS to support multi-processor configurations and use new memory modes. But did this significantly impact the business in a positive way? If it was a wild success why did it only last a year? Part of managing software engineers can be to stop them from doing things that merely feel productive.
- JoeAltmaier 2y ago
  Good questions. The OS releases were the most successful in the company's history. It lasted until we got bought (the price of success) and the old-mill buyer installed drones to crush moral and productivity. They had no idea how an engineering company worked. I quit and moved on.
georgeecollins 2y ago
That sounds great, but if your output was to develop new versions of an OS to support multi-processor configurations and memory modes, you were making a product whose customers were engineers like yourself. I am not saying that to take away from the accomplishment, as another said: you were the engineering manager. A manager is often the delivery system for all the messages that engineers aren't interested in: The fickle customer, the imperfect or unattainable vision of the enterprise, fiscal demands.. Often managers are delivering you unpleasant, distracting, or annoying news. But if they are good they are giving you a lot less of that distraction then if the org were flat.

belter 2y ago

> I worked for a year with no engineering manager, no software director, no VP of Engineering No you did not. You were the engineering manager

mlinhares 2y ago
I'm always surprised when people do not notice this. If you don't have a manager doing the management work for you, YOU are doing the work. At my current job we haven't had a product manager for quite a while, to the point that all engineers have just internalized that we are the product managers, so we frequently show up at meetings to drive product decisions, we talk with partners and everything and every once in a while it dawns on someone _this wasn't supposed to be our job_ but if we don't do it who's gonna do it?
- bluGill 2y ago
  > this wasn't supposed to be our job I'm not sure if that is bad or not - while it is annoying to attend all those meetings, often you know the problem well enough that you can just build the right thing. You start to feel empowered to add this feature customers want because you know the customer
  - mlinhares 2y ago
    I don't think its bad per se, i do enjoy being closer to customers and all, but there's a lot of managing, calendaring, and meetings where I know someone else could be taking them instead of me (and I could focus on the stuff I do that bring more value to the business).
- htrp 2y ago
  and you're able to deliver features that customers request, especially if they are low engineering lifts
bluGill 2y ago
If the total team was 5 or less (maybe 10) that is find - there isn't much overhead that a manager is needed for in the first place. It is also likely you won't have the "people" issues that a manager needs to deal with in those couple years. A larger team will have a lot of overhead that a manager can take care of for you. A larger or longer lasting team will have "people" issues that a manager should deal with.
ghusto 2y ago
You're presuming he performed managerial tasks, which presumes further that those tasks are unavoidable. It's difficult to imagine if you've only ever worked in places where this is evidently true, but that is only one way in which a company can work. You can also run a company of _hundreds_ of engineers who are all self-governing. If it can happen at least once (company I worked for), then it's repeatable and therefore a viable alternative.
JoeAltmaier 2y ago
Doublespeak. We did no budget meetings; we did no 'resource allocation' charts or plans. We all worked our butts off, harder than before because nobody needed our status reports so they could concatenate them and pass them up the chain to pretend they were doing something. The fact is, the work of an engineering manager is largely make-work. Something to justify a middle manager's salary.

evilduck 2y ago

> The most productive year of my group at that job. Brought out two new versions of our OS to support multi-processor configurations and use new memory modes. But did this significantly impact the business in a positive way? If it was a wild success why did it only last a year? Part of managing software engineers can be to stop them from doing things that merely feel productive.

JoeAltmaier 2y ago
Good questions. The OS releases were the most successful in the company's history. It lasted until we got bought (the price of success) and the old-mill buyer installed drones to crush moral and productivity. They had no idea how an engineering company worked. I quit and moved on.

georgeecollins 2y ago

That sounds great, but if your output was to develop new versions of an OS to support multi-processor configurations and memory modes, you were making a product whose customers were engineers like yourself. I am not saying that to take away from the accomplishment, as another said: you were the engineering manager. A manager is often the delivery system for all the messages that engineers aren't interested in: The fickle customer, the imperfect or unattainable vision of the enterprise, fiscal demands.. Often managers are delivering you unpleasant, distracting, or annoying news. But if they are good they are giving you a lot less of that distraction then if the org were flat.