4 ms·

We're entering the age where having private, personal space is becoming almost impossible. If you have a conversation around your phone, you best believe that

by akouri 2y ago

We're entering the age where having private, personal space is becoming almost impossible. If you have a conversation around your phone, you best believe that government actors can tap that mic. If you have a conversation at home, either your "smart" TV, fridge, or Google Home / Alexa is listening. Now, cars are just becoming tablets on wheels. In my Tesla, I am quite literally, being watched every time I drive. There is a tiny camera behind the rearview mirror. I have to assume that my vehicle will collect data that could be used against me in court. It's a weird shift, going from a completely analog & disconnected vehicle now to an internet-connected tracking device. You truly think about every move -- e.g. "Gee, I hope my insurance company doesn't misinterpret this 'hard braking event' as me being an irresponsible driver."

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kotaKat 2y ago
> I have to assume that my vehicle will collect data that could be used against me in court. They always have, for a long time. Exploring event data recorders is an interesting art to get into and put together how crashes play out, sensor-by-sensor. To play along at home: https://crashdatagroup.com/ https://crashdatagroup.com/ -- amusingly, one of the referrals mentioned on the page was essentially "Someone hit my parked car and then claimed I was driving it at the time" -- the EDR sounds like it saved them from a fraudulent claim.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- eldaisfish 2y ago
  This mischaracterises the point. The scale at which data collection now happens is unprecedented. The fact that data collection and sharing is now a continuous process is unprecedented. claiming that this has always been the case is disingenuous.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  That really, really depends. My stepdaughter was involved in a he-said, she-said collision in a lighted intersection. "I believe I had the green light", "no, I believe I had". So me, thinking, talking to insurer, "While not definitive, if the EDR shows that she was a complete stop for 30s before moving, that might show she was stopped at a red, and then went when it turned green". Insurer: unless we're looking at six digits in a claim, we're not pulling EDR data. They did treat it as a not-at-fault collision, because fault could not be determined, but still. Tesla will make you fight them to get access to your own EDR data. But will hold press conferences where they'll tell the world all about your EDR data if they think it will move the spotlight away from AP/FSD (fatal accident a few years ago where they were suspected to be involved. Tesla holds a press conference, "Akshually, the vehicle had told the driver to be more attentive". And it had. But Tesla didn't mention that it had only done that once. And that that one time was EIGHTEEN MINUTES prior to the collision. They just wanted to make it sound like an irresponsible driver.)
  - adolph 2y ago
    > Insurer: unless we're looking at six digits in a claim, we're not pulling EDR data. Fascinating. You'd think that would be the first thing used before any humans even speak.
    - FireBeyond 2y ago
      It's also a gamble. Money and labor to retrieve the data, possibly out of a seriously damaged vehicle (making it difficult to get to it). And then if you're in a situation where EDR is your best source of verifiability (no eyewitnesses, etc.) you're also gambling that the story coming from your customer was accurate and doesn't increase the liability that you've helpfully provided evidence of.
mc32 2y ago
One option that’s not great, is to follow the Amish —though the feds like irritating them from time to time. Maybe another is Indian lands, but who knows, they will likely find ways around that too.
- bombcar 2y ago
  What you have to do is stay just under the radar without looking like you're staying under the radar. The Amish stand out. But mc32 driving a 1998 Volvo with no cell phone does not stand out.
  - adamomada 2y ago
    Depends where you are. ‘round here, not driving a late-model vehicle seems to be probable cause
  - mc32 2y ago
    That's a good point, though keep in mind in some countries older cars are taxed heavily and some jurisdictions are considering phasing out older cars (not allowed to repair major components). Probably won't be the case in the US, but who knows...
    - seafoam 2y ago
      Emissions requirements create this same result in many parts of the US.
      - bombcar 2y ago
        You can usually get into a "vintage/collector" vehicle class at some point, but some states prohibit those being driven "regular".
  - adolph 2y ago
    > But mc32 driving a 1998 Volvo with no cell phone does not stand out. What is "mc32"?
toomuchtodo 2y ago
Tesla does not divulge your location to law enforcement without a warrant, and stands out amongst other automakers who simply hand it over. They also were one of few automakers who wasn't selling your data to LexisNexis Risk Solutions for insurance pricing. https://www.tesla.com/legal/privacy https://www.tesla.com/legal/privacy https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driver-tracking-insurance.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driv... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39666976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39666976 https://www.ftc.gov/policy/advocacy-research/tech-at-ftc/2024/05/cars-consumer-data-unlawful-collection-use https://www.ftc.gov/policy/advocacy-research/tech-at-ftc/202... Edit: Obligatory political process call to action: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40203558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40203558 (own Teslas, have submitted comments to Senator Wyden and the FTC on the topic, responsible for data security and privacy at a fintech, thoughts and opinions are my own)
- dietr1ch 2y ago
  my bike manufacturer does not divulge my location either, but in a much easier to trust way and without a possibility for circumvention. Cars knowing their own location can be really useful, but why does the manufacturer need to know about it? and to begin with, why are they allowed to know about it?
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    I can only speak to Tesla; they can display the location of my vehicles in the mobile app, I can log my vehicle location constantly with a third party app (Teslascope, Tessie, etc), and other similar location based functionality. I want this functionality, I am willing to opt in to it, but I still expect robust controls (both internal and external) around the data they store and process. I understand some people may wish to opt out; they should be provided the option to do so, along with an acknowledged loss in capabilities that rely on those location services. Protect the consumer's choice and their data.
    - nehal3m 2y ago
gordon_freeman 2y ago
> You truly think about every move -- e.g. "Gee, I hope my insurance company doesn't misinterpret this 'hard braking event' as me being an irresponsible driver." This reminds me of the "Thought Police" from 1984.
- Animats 2y ago
  In 1984, you never knew if they were watching. Now you know they're watching.
  - jll29 2y ago
    I suppose you mean the year 1984. Because in the novel "1984", the slogan "Big Brother is watching you." literally contradicts that statement of yours. Wikipedia writes: > The ubiquitous slogan "Big Brother is watching you" serves as a constant reminder that Party members are not entitled to privacy. They are subject to constant surveillance to ensure their ideological purity. This is primarily through omnipresent telescreens that provide two-way video communication and constantly blare propaganda.
    - chucksmash 2y ago
      > The telescreen received and transmitted simultaneously. Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it; moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plaque commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
      - Animats 2y ago
        Yes. That was my point. But then recording got cheap enough to record everything, and now AI is getting good enough to analyze all the data. Orwell didn't see that coming.
driverdan 2y ago
It's not almost impossible. You're choosing to buy a Tesla and connect your "smart" appliances to the internet. You have other options. The only person to blame is yourself. I'm not saying companies should be allowed to do this, we really need a comprehensive privacy bill of rights, but you don't have to buy this crap that tracks you.
adamomada 2y ago
What I hope for is what amazon has done with the mic controls on a few devices (fire tv cube, echo, others?) where a teardown has proven that the hardware button to disable the mic physically disables the mic from possibly working while the light is on, and additionally makes it impossible for the software to enable it (until power cycle, where they have the firmware re-set it during boot and can verify it by seeing the light on again) Making this kind of circuit mandatory and hopefully a default that you have to switch on is the solution to keep both groups happy. I can dig up the article that shows the schematic if anyone needs evidence
vundercind 2y ago
> Gee, I hope my insurance company doesn't misinterpret this 'hard braking event' as me being an irresponsible driver. Oh man, I had one of those boxes insurance companies send out to record you so you can qualify for lower rates for a couple weeks (my wife signed us up for it) and I felt like I was driving so much more dangerously with it on. But all my graphs would have been reeeeeal smooth.
sharperguy 2y ago
It's not just hard. It's suspicious in and of itself, and it supports terrorism/climate change/fraud/hackers/sex traffickers etc etc.
MentallyRetired 2y ago
Ethics among programmers is for sale, sadly.
yumraj 2y ago
> There is a tiny camera behind the rearview mirror. Can you not cover it, or do you lose some functionality if you do so?
mistrial9 2y ago
> If you have a conversation around your phone, you best believe that government actors can tap that mic please less ranting and more substance > In my Tesla, I am quite literally, being watched every time I drive. this is somehow new ? > an internet-connected tracking device yes, the phone has emboldened these products and the gloves are "off"
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by akouri 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

kotaKat 2y ago

> I have to assume that my vehicle will collect data that could be used against me in court. They always have, for a long time. Exploring event data recorders is an interesting art to get into and put together how crashes play out, sensor-by-sensor. To play along at home: https://crashdatagroup.com/ https://crashdatagroup.com/ -- amusingly, one of the referrals mentioned on the page was essentially "Someone hit my parked car and then claimed I was driving it at the time" -- the EDR sounds like it saved them from a fraudulent claim.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
eldaisfish 2y ago
This mischaracterises the point. The scale at which data collection now happens is unprecedented. The fact that data collection and sharing is now a continuous process is unprecedented. claiming that this has always been the case is disingenuous.
FireBeyond 2y ago
That really, really depends. My stepdaughter was involved in a he-said, she-said collision in a lighted intersection. "I believe I had the green light", "no, I believe I had". So me, thinking, talking to insurer, "While not definitive, if the EDR shows that she was a complete stop for 30s before moving, that might show she was stopped at a red, and then went when it turned green". Insurer: unless we're looking at six digits in a claim, we're not pulling EDR data. They did treat it as a not-at-fault collision, because fault could not be determined, but still. Tesla will make you fight them to get access to your own EDR data. But will hold press conferences where they'll tell the world all about your EDR data if they think it will move the spotlight away from AP/FSD (fatal accident a few years ago where they were suspected to be involved. Tesla holds a press conference, "Akshually, the vehicle had told the driver to be more attentive". And it had. But Tesla didn't mention that it had only done that once. And that that one time was EIGHTEEN MINUTES prior to the collision. They just wanted to make it sound like an irresponsible driver.)
- adolph 2y ago
  > Insurer: unless we're looking at six digits in a claim, we're not pulling EDR data. Fascinating. You'd think that would be the first thing used before any humans even speak.
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    It's also a gamble. Money and labor to retrieve the data, possibly out of a seriously damaged vehicle (making it difficult to get to it). And then if you're in a situation where EDR is your best source of verifiability (no eyewitnesses, etc.) you're also gambling that the story coming from your customer was accurate and doesn't increase the liability that you've helpfully provided evidence of.

mc32 2y ago

One option that’s not great, is to follow the Amish —though the feds like irritating them from time to time. Maybe another is Indian lands, but who knows, they will likely find ways around that too.

bombcar 2y ago
What you have to do is stay just under the radar without looking like you're staying under the radar. The Amish stand out. But mc32 driving a 1998 Volvo with no cell phone does not stand out.
- adamomada 2y ago
  Depends where you are. ‘round here, not driving a late-model vehicle seems to be probable cause
- mc32 2y ago
  That's a good point, though keep in mind in some countries older cars are taxed heavily and some jurisdictions are considering phasing out older cars (not allowed to repair major components). Probably won't be the case in the US, but who knows...
  - seafoam 2y ago
    Emissions requirements create this same result in many parts of the US.
    - bombcar 2y ago
      You can usually get into a "vintage/collector" vehicle class at some point, but some states prohibit those being driven "regular".
- adolph 2y ago
  > But mc32 driving a 1998 Volvo with no cell phone does not stand out. What is "mc32"?

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Tesla does not divulge your location to law enforcement without a warrant, and stands out amongst other automakers who simply hand it over. They also were one of few automakers who wasn't selling your data to LexisNexis Risk Solutions for insurance pricing. https://www.tesla.com/legal/privacy https://www.tesla.com/legal/privacy https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driver-tracking-insurance.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driv... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39666976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39666976 https://www.ftc.gov/policy/advocacy-research/tech-at-ftc/2024/05/cars-consumer-data-unlawful-collection-use https://www.ftc.gov/policy/advocacy-research/tech-at-ftc/202... Edit: Obligatory political process call to action: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40203558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40203558 (own Teslas, have submitted comments to Senator Wyden and the FTC on the topic, responsible for data security and privacy at a fintech, thoughts and opinions are my own)

dietr1ch 2y ago
my bike manufacturer does not divulge my location either, but in a much easier to trust way and without a possibility for circumvention. Cars knowing their own location can be really useful, but why does the manufacturer need to know about it? and to begin with, why are they allowed to know about it?
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  I can only speak to Tesla; they can display the location of my vehicles in the mobile app, I can log my vehicle location constantly with a third party app (Teslascope, Tessie, etc), and other similar location based functionality. I want this functionality, I am willing to opt in to it, but I still expect robust controls (both internal and external) around the data they store and process. I understand some people may wish to opt out; they should be provided the option to do so, along with an acknowledged loss in capabilities that rely on those location services. Protect the consumer's choice and their data.
  - nehal3m 2y ago

gordon_freeman 2y ago

> You truly think about every move -- e.g. "Gee, I hope my insurance company doesn't misinterpret this 'hard braking event' as me being an irresponsible driver." This reminds me of the "Thought Police" from 1984.

Animats 2y ago
In 1984, you never knew if they were watching. Now you know they're watching.
- jll29 2y ago
  I suppose you mean the year 1984. Because in the novel "1984", the slogan "Big Brother is watching you." literally contradicts that statement of yours. Wikipedia writes: > The ubiquitous slogan "Big Brother is watching you" serves as a constant reminder that Party members are not entitled to privacy. They are subject to constant surveillance to ensure their ideological purity. This is primarily through omnipresent telescreens that provide two-way video communication and constantly blare propaganda.
  - chucksmash 2y ago
    > The telescreen received and transmitted simultaneously. Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it; moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plaque commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
    - Animats 2y ago
      Yes. That was my point. But then recording got cheap enough to record everything, and now AI is getting good enough to analyze all the data. Orwell didn't see that coming.

driverdan 2y ago

It's not almost impossible. You're choosing to buy a Tesla and connect your "smart" appliances to the internet. You have other options. The only person to blame is yourself. I'm not saying companies should be allowed to do this, we really need a comprehensive privacy bill of rights, but you don't have to buy this crap that tracks you.

adamomada 2y ago

What I hope for is what amazon has done with the mic controls on a few devices (fire tv cube, echo, others?) where a teardown has proven that the hardware button to disable the mic physically disables the mic from possibly working while the light is on, and additionally makes it impossible for the software to enable it (until power cycle, where they have the firmware re-set it during boot and can verify it by seeing the light on again) Making this kind of circuit mandatory and hopefully a default that you have to switch on is the solution to keep both groups happy. I can dig up the article that shows the schematic if anyone needs evidence

vundercind 2y ago

> Gee, I hope my insurance company doesn't misinterpret this 'hard braking event' as me being an irresponsible driver. Oh man, I had one of those boxes insurance companies send out to record you so you can qualify for lower rates for a couple weeks (my wife signed us up for it) and I felt like I was driving so much more dangerously with it on. But all my graphs would have been reeeeeal smooth.

sharperguy 2y ago

It's not just hard. It's suspicious in and of itself, and it supports terrorism/climate change/fraud/hackers/sex traffickers etc etc.

MentallyRetired 2y ago

Ethics among programmers is for sale, sadly.

yumraj 2y ago

> There is a tiny camera behind the rearview mirror. Can you not cover it, or do you lose some functionality if you do so?

mistrial9 2y ago

> If you have a conversation around your phone, you best believe that government actors can tap that mic please less ranting and more substance > In my Tesla, I am quite literally, being watched every time I drive. this is somehow new ? > an internet-connected tracking device yes, the phone has emboldened these products and the gloves are "off"

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]