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I feel for them, because even if they (and weirdos like us on this site) value decentralization and other related values the average customer just DOES NOT CARE

I feel for them, because even if they (and weirdos like us on this site) value decentralization and other related values the average customer just DOES NOT CARE. They're trying to compete with other platforms without this handicap and very people people are willing to give them any "credit" for it

TheBlight 2y ago
I thought the entire point of Bluesky was that it was to be decentralized? Did that change?
- ziml77 2y ago
  That was the idea with Bluesky, but people refuse to budge from Twitter without DMs integrated into the platform.
  - doublerabbit 2y ago
    Which applies to WhatsApp, TikTok too. The main issue with other platforms is that the content that exists within are too wild-west. Anime isn't a everybody thing nor are geeky Programming/Linux communities or furry artwork for that matter. Where do I find TikTok content within Matrix? That's what the current content-matter is. The corporate apply heavy exploitation; psychology and social exploits to the user. And while the other platforms don't and carry merits such as privacy and the likes; people really just don't care they are being used for systematic learning, being manipulated because some peer is influencing them. Companies pay large amount of money in R&D for developing social exploits, all the way down to the background colour of the icon of the app. A platform has to have a gimmick to catch. Privacy, decentralized isn't it. These foundations don't have corp money to pay for content producers, influencers and so you then end up with dwellings of niches which can turn urk at best.
- ncallaway 2y ago
  From using Bluesky it feels like the goal is to build a social media experience that’s as decentralized as possible without sacrificing the user experience. So, they want the experience to be like Twitter for the users that don’t care about decentralization, but to be backed by something like ATProto underneath for those who care. I’d say Mastodon is more “the entire point is that it’s decentralized”. Bluesky it’s a major point, but not the entire point.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    When you're competing against goliath first-moved closed platforms, pragmatic eventual-decentralization makes sense. What use is first delivering today's table stakes features 5 years from now, albeit fully decentralized and open?
    - wmf 2y ago
      Twitter is over ten years old so arguably all its competitors are "late". Bluesky doesn't have 5 years of runway though.
    - ncallaway 2y ago
      Yea, especially when their rational is DMs are the most asked for feature. Build a good enough version now, and then tackle the end to end encrypted fully decentralized version. The cheap version can give them the breathing room to build the better version.
  - ramesh31 2y ago
    >Bluesky it’s a major point, but not the entire point. And I'd say that was the right tradeoff to make. Mastodon is only marginally more useful than IRC at this point, and is completely useless to the average person. I as a developer have yet to even figure out how it's supposed to work. And no, I'm not going to spend hours digging through docs.
    - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
      I mean you can just sign up and use it. No need to read docs. I have plenty of complaints, but it’s largely alright imo.
    - Barrin92 2y ago
      >I as a developer have yet to even figure out how it's supposed to work You go to https://joinmastodon.org/ https://joinmastodon.org/, click on "join" (or pick another server if you are adventurous), fill in your username and email and you're good to go. Why do people invent fictional horror stories about a service that's at this point functionally as easy to use as any bog standard website?
- summerlight 2y ago
  Decentralization is a solution for establishing a saner, fail-safe governance structure (or we can call it "billionaire-proof"), not the problem to be solved by itself. You need to have enough traction to achieve this goal and sometime it might make sense to compromise the decentralized implementation part.
- jasonlotito 2y ago
  Yes. No.
riffic 2y ago
customer? who's paying for it?
shadowfacts 2y ago
I'm a little bit sympathetic, but they've also kinda tried to have it both ways. They spent ages inventing a new protocol for decentralized microblogging, and then ages more before you could actually use a server other than theirs. But DMs is now where they don't want to spend the time up front to do it the right way?
- _djo_ 2y ago
  To be fair, they’re a tiny team with a ton of things on their roadmap and limited time to do it all. It seems they’re taking it slow on core stuff that they really need to get right, because it can’t be changed later, while adopting pragmatic solutions for things that users want now and which can be swapped out for better implementations in future.
bachmeier 2y ago
> the average customer just DOES NOT CARE They're not targeting the average customer (by whatever metric you measure an average customer). They're targeting people that value decentralization.
- djur 2y ago
  Kind of, sort of, but not so much? They're also targeting people who left Twitter because of the moderation policies, ownership, and/or user base. Among Bluesky users, Twitter migrants easily outnumber decentralization enthusiasts 10 to 1 at this point.
wannacboatmovie 2y ago
This is spot on. BlueSky and Threads have just become "left-wing Twitter", intentionally in quotes because it's actually a very small subset of users that left to found their own hug-box, due to some irrational hate of Musk, or that people they don't like at the old place are allowed to have opinions again. Nobody cares about protocols, except maybe the handful of infosec nerds on Mastodon. It's about a middle school-level rearranging of friend groups. A VIP lounge where they only hang out with their own. There was an exodus of a small subset of users, and BlueSky was there like an abandoned building that was squatted. It being invite-only added to the exclusivity as invites were passed amongst like-minded peers online, further adding to the echo-chamber.
- gammarator 2y ago
  > that people they don't like at the old place are allowed to have opinions again. Sorry, but I think that deliberately obfuscates the changes Musk has made at Twitter. See https://ketanjoshi.co/2024/04/19/you-are-the-fuel-that-energises-elon-musks-hate-machine/ https://ketanjoshi.co/2024/04/19/you-are-the-fuel-that-energ... for one summary.
- djur 2y ago
  Why is hating Elon Musk irrational? Regardless of politics or business practices, his personal conduct is revolting.
  - wannacboatmovie 2y ago
    Why do you care? You're not his friend or related to him. He is the CEO of a scaled text messaging app. Do you get upset if the CEO of your electric utility made stupid political statements? Or if the owner of a car dealership cheats on his wife? Tiger Woods slept with like fifty waitresses and masses of people were furious. Why? What did they expect his life as a star athlete was? People dislike Musk out of pure jealousy and try to rationalize it via other means. The logical option would be to simply not care.
    - lxgr 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

TheBlight 2y ago

I thought the entire point of Bluesky was that it was to be decentralized? Did that change?

ziml77 2y ago
That was the idea with Bluesky, but people refuse to budge from Twitter without DMs integrated into the platform.
- doublerabbit 2y ago
  Which applies to WhatsApp, TikTok too. The main issue with other platforms is that the content that exists within are too wild-west. Anime isn't a everybody thing nor are geeky Programming/Linux communities or furry artwork for that matter. Where do I find TikTok content within Matrix? That's what the current content-matter is. The corporate apply heavy exploitation; psychology and social exploits to the user. And while the other platforms don't and carry merits such as privacy and the likes; people really just don't care they are being used for systematic learning, being manipulated because some peer is influencing them. Companies pay large amount of money in R&D for developing social exploits, all the way down to the background colour of the icon of the app. A platform has to have a gimmick to catch. Privacy, decentralized isn't it. These foundations don't have corp money to pay for content producers, influencers and so you then end up with dwellings of niches which can turn urk at best.
ncallaway 2y ago
From using Bluesky it feels like the goal is to build a social media experience that’s as decentralized as possible without sacrificing the user experience. So, they want the experience to be like Twitter for the users that don’t care about decentralization, but to be backed by something like ATProto underneath for those who care. I’d say Mastodon is more “the entire point is that it’s decentralized”. Bluesky it’s a major point, but not the entire point.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  When you're competing against goliath first-moved closed platforms, pragmatic eventual-decentralization makes sense. What use is first delivering today's table stakes features 5 years from now, albeit fully decentralized and open?
  - wmf 2y ago
    Twitter is over ten years old so arguably all its competitors are "late". Bluesky doesn't have 5 years of runway though.
  - ncallaway 2y ago
    Yea, especially when their rational is DMs are the most asked for feature. Build a good enough version now, and then tackle the end to end encrypted fully decentralized version. The cheap version can give them the breathing room to build the better version.
- ramesh31 2y ago
  >Bluesky it’s a major point, but not the entire point. And I'd say that was the right tradeoff to make. Mastodon is only marginally more useful than IRC at this point, and is completely useless to the average person. I as a developer have yet to even figure out how it's supposed to work. And no, I'm not going to spend hours digging through docs.
  - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
    I mean you can just sign up and use it. No need to read docs. I have plenty of complaints, but it’s largely alright imo.
  - Barrin92 2y ago
    >I as a developer have yet to even figure out how it's supposed to work You go to https://joinmastodon.org/ https://joinmastodon.org/, click on "join" (or pick another server if you are adventurous), fill in your username and email and you're good to go. Why do people invent fictional horror stories about a service that's at this point functionally as easy to use as any bog standard website?
summerlight 2y ago
Decentralization is a solution for establishing a saner, fail-safe governance structure (or we can call it "billionaire-proof"), not the problem to be solved by itself. You need to have enough traction to achieve this goal and sometime it might make sense to compromise the decentralized implementation part.
jasonlotito 2y ago
Yes. No.

riffic 2y ago

customer? who's paying for it?

shadowfacts 2y ago

I'm a little bit sympathetic, but they've also kinda tried to have it both ways. They spent ages inventing a new protocol for decentralized microblogging, and then ages more before you could actually use a server other than theirs. But DMs is now where they don't want to spend the time up front to do it the right way?

_djo_ 2y ago
To be fair, they’re a tiny team with a ton of things on their roadmap and limited time to do it all. It seems they’re taking it slow on core stuff that they really need to get right, because it can’t be changed later, while adopting pragmatic solutions for things that users want now and which can be swapped out for better implementations in future.

bachmeier 2y ago

> the average customer just DOES NOT CARE They're not targeting the average customer (by whatever metric you measure an average customer). They're targeting people that value decentralization.

djur 2y ago
Kind of, sort of, but not so much? They're also targeting people who left Twitter because of the moderation policies, ownership, and/or user base. Among Bluesky users, Twitter migrants easily outnumber decentralization enthusiasts 10 to 1 at this point.

wannacboatmovie 2y ago

This is spot on. BlueSky and Threads have just become "left-wing Twitter", intentionally in quotes because it's actually a very small subset of users that left to found their own hug-box, due to some irrational hate of Musk, or that people they don't like at the old place are allowed to have opinions again. Nobody cares about protocols, except maybe the handful of infosec nerds on Mastodon. It's about a middle school-level rearranging of friend groups. A VIP lounge where they only hang out with their own. There was an exodus of a small subset of users, and BlueSky was there like an abandoned building that was squatted. It being invite-only added to the exclusivity as invites were passed amongst like-minded peers online, further adding to the echo-chamber.

gammarator 2y ago
> that people they don't like at the old place are allowed to have opinions again. Sorry, but I think that deliberately obfuscates the changes Musk has made at Twitter. See https://ketanjoshi.co/2024/04/19/you-are-the-fuel-that-energises-elon-musks-hate-machine/ https://ketanjoshi.co/2024/04/19/you-are-the-fuel-that-energ... for one summary.
djur 2y ago
Why is hating Elon Musk irrational? Regardless of politics or business practices, his personal conduct is revolting.
- wannacboatmovie 2y ago
  Why do you care? You're not his friend or related to him. He is the CEO of a scaled text messaging app. Do you get upset if the CEO of your electric utility made stupid political statements? Or if the owner of a car dealership cheats on his wife? Tiger Woods slept with like fifty waitresses and masses of people were furious. Why? What did they expect his life as a star athlete was? People dislike Musk out of pure jealousy and try to rationalize it via other means. The logical option would be to simply not care.
  - lxgr 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]