4 ms·

I kind of emphatize with the author raging at "just copy C++ bro" proposals because at $TWO_JOBS_AGO I had to deal with an "Architecture Team" full of Very Seni

by lpapez 2y ago

I kind of emphatize with the author raging at "just copy C++ bro" proposals because at $TWO_JOBS_AGO I had to deal with an "Architecture Team" full of Very Senior(tm) people who would show up uninvited and give advice like "did you know you can pee and poo at the same time?" Of course, but if you bothered at all to understand the constraints, you would have seen it is not actually that simple in our case. And my project was several orders of magnitude simpler than the C standard.

phendrenad2 2y ago
I feel like this is an archetype. Show up out of nowhere, half-understand the problem, make a brain-dead suggestion, and then as soon as you point out the problems with that approach, they're suddenly too busy with other things to respond.
- meindnoch 2y ago
  Architect: you know, I just feel like there should be a way to solve this in a proper way Engineer (thinking): (No, you idiot, there isn't, because it's broken! I told you, all options have been tried, and this was the least painful way of doing it. Yes, it's not the ideal solution, but there's no other way, unless the upstream vendor decides to fix the issue on their end!) Engineer: thanks, I'll look into it :)
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- xmodem 2y ago
  I had one where the architecture team implemented the brain-dead solution, advised leadership of other teams that they should adopt the brain-dead solution, and that my team would be supporting the brain-dead solution, without consulting us, and made me into the bad guy when I pointed out that my team did not support the brain-dead solution. We ended up supporting the brain-dead solution, but that team has now experienced 100% turn over since then.
chipdart 2y ago
> (...) I had to deal with an "Architecture Team" full of Very Senior(tm) people who would show up uninvited and give advice like "did you know you can pee and poo at the same time?" It reads like you had experts giving you advise on how to improve things, and instead not only did you ignored their advise but you went to the extent of mindlessly disparaging their help.
- VBprogrammer 2y ago
  I suspect if you don't recognise this scenario you may be standing too close to the mirror.
- lpapez 2y ago
  Nah, the other commenter had described the situation exactly right - after dropping the comments, the "A-Team" disappeared for a few months and never revisited our responses. It really feels like an archetype common at many companies. They were doing it just to boost their egos and most of the teams in the company learned to ignore them. When the company ownership changed, the "A-Team" was the first under the chopping block because the new owners correctly saw that the high status they had was simply due to inertia of being first devs at the company and were not fullfiling any meaningful role in the present.
- wiseowise 2y ago
  Spotted one of the architecture team.
- geraldwhen 2y ago
  I’ve yet to meet an architect I would hire to build literally anything. I’ve met dozens that don’t know their head from their ass. And always, always when you describe the problem constraints, they mumble and disappear.
  - eru 2y ago
    My first boss had the title 'architect', but he was actually very competent, and very regularly got his hands dirty coding. (But at the time, I basically joined what was still essentially a startup just after they had been acquired by a larger company. I think the titles like 'architect' might have come from the larger company, but the competence came from them still being the same people as at the startup.)
wiseowise 2y ago
> I kind of emphatize with the author raging at "just copy C++ bro" proposals because at $TWO_JOBS_AGO I had to deal with an "Architecture Team" full of Very Senior(tm) people who would show up uninvited and give advice like "did you know you can pee and poo at the same time?" My sides. This is the most hilarious and accurate summary of every org where I’ve worked. Thank you.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  +1 It's amazing how we've all encountered these guys at least once in our careers (and often more, at many companies). A lot of times they are "founding engineers" from a decade ago who were employee number 2 and 3 or something, and once knew quite a bit about the codebase. They are too high-paid to code anymore, but they still fly in, dispense their "wisdom" all over the junior folks, then flap their wings and disappear for a few months. Seagull management[1] without the role/responsibility of people management. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagull_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagull_management
keyle 2y ago
"Architects"! I always smile at the term. I'm as much a software "engineer" as they're "architects". At some point we had to wear deodorant and a collared shirt, boom we became engineers.
- supahfly_remix 2y ago
  Developers will become engineers as soon as the legal liability for mistakes falls on them.
  - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
    I have good news, AI will be the cover for all mistakes now, since it can be fingerpointed/scapegoated as the source of all code.
    - supahfly_remix 2y ago
      I know you're joking, but I'm talking about legal responsibility like this: https://insideevs.com/news/575160/mercedes-accepts-legal-responsibility-drive-pilot/ https://insideevs.com/news/575160/mercedes-accepts-legal-res.... In this case, Mercedes, not the the developer, is assuming liability, but that responsibility will trickle down.
      - tut-urut-utut 2y ago
        Why do you think it’s fair for responsibility to trickle down, while profit never goes to engineers.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      That is yet to be determined. There is some pressure in the other direction. I know of one large corporation, that does a lot of work around the world of the kind where programming errors could destroy property or kill people, has strict policies wrt. AI-generated code. This includes an obligation to clearly mark code that was written by AI, as well as restrictions on when it's allowed. This is driven not just by potential IP issues, but also by security and export control. (Yes, in a large enough corp, export control is a source of a surprisingly large amount of extra work...)
fredrikholm 2y ago
> Very Senior(tm) people who would show up uninvited and give advice like "did you know you can pee and poo at the same time?" That gave me a good 5 minutes of chuckling and smiling. Thank you.
- autoexecbat 2y ago
  Plenty of people struggle with simultaneous action for that. Generally doing one after the other within the same sitting
  - lpapez 2y ago
    Absolutely. Good luck explaining that to the A-Team.
rowanG077 2y ago
How dare they try to help the more junior engineers. What horrible people. In all seriousness just accept their advice and see it for what it is. Someone trying to help you with limited view of the scope. As long as they don't impose their view I think your take is extremely bad.

by lpapez 2y ago

phendrenad2 2y ago

I feel like this is an archetype. Show up out of nowhere, half-understand the problem, make a brain-dead suggestion, and then as soon as you point out the problems with that approach, they're suddenly too busy with other things to respond.

meindnoch 2y ago
Architect: you know, I just feel like there should be a way to solve this in a proper way Engineer (thinking): (No, you idiot, there isn't, because it's broken! I told you, all options have been tried, and this was the least painful way of doing it. Yes, it's not the ideal solution, but there's no other way, unless the upstream vendor decides to fix the issue on their end!) Engineer: thanks, I'll look into it :)
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
xmodem 2y ago
I had one where the architecture team implemented the brain-dead solution, advised leadership of other teams that they should adopt the brain-dead solution, and that my team would be supporting the brain-dead solution, without consulting us, and made me into the bad guy when I pointed out that my team did not support the brain-dead solution. We ended up supporting the brain-dead solution, but that team has now experienced 100% turn over since then.

chipdart 2y ago

> (...) I had to deal with an "Architecture Team" full of Very Senior(tm) people who would show up uninvited and give advice like "did you know you can pee and poo at the same time?" It reads like you had experts giving you advise on how to improve things, and instead not only did you ignored their advise but you went to the extent of mindlessly disparaging their help.

VBprogrammer 2y ago
I suspect if you don't recognise this scenario you may be standing too close to the mirror.
lpapez 2y ago
Nah, the other commenter had described the situation exactly right - after dropping the comments, the "A-Team" disappeared for a few months and never revisited our responses. It really feels like an archetype common at many companies. They were doing it just to boost their egos and most of the teams in the company learned to ignore them. When the company ownership changed, the "A-Team" was the first under the chopping block because the new owners correctly saw that the high status they had was simply due to inertia of being first devs at the company and were not fullfiling any meaningful role in the present.
wiseowise 2y ago
Spotted one of the architecture team.
geraldwhen 2y ago
I’ve yet to meet an architect I would hire to build literally anything. I’ve met dozens that don’t know their head from their ass. And always, always when you describe the problem constraints, they mumble and disappear.
- eru 2y ago
  My first boss had the title 'architect', but he was actually very competent, and very regularly got his hands dirty coding. (But at the time, I basically joined what was still essentially a startup just after they had been acquired by a larger company. I think the titles like 'architect' might have come from the larger company, but the competence came from them still being the same people as at the startup.)

wiseowise 2y ago

> I kind of emphatize with the author raging at "just copy C++ bro" proposals because at $TWO_JOBS_AGO I had to deal with an "Architecture Team" full of Very Senior(tm) people who would show up uninvited and give advice like "did you know you can pee and poo at the same time?" My sides. This is the most hilarious and accurate summary of every org where I’ve worked. Thank you.

ryandrake 2y ago
+1 It's amazing how we've all encountered these guys at least once in our careers (and often more, at many companies). A lot of times they are "founding engineers" from a decade ago who were employee number 2 and 3 or something, and once knew quite a bit about the codebase. They are too high-paid to code anymore, but they still fly in, dispense their "wisdom" all over the junior folks, then flap their wings and disappear for a few months. Seagull management[1] without the role/responsibility of people management. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagull_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagull_management

keyle 2y ago

"Architects"! I always smile at the term. I'm as much a software "engineer" as they're "architects". At some point we had to wear deodorant and a collared shirt, boom we became engineers.

supahfly_remix 2y ago
Developers will become engineers as soon as the legal liability for mistakes falls on them.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  I have good news, AI will be the cover for all mistakes now, since it can be fingerpointed/scapegoated as the source of all code.
  - supahfly_remix 2y ago
    I know you're joking, but I'm talking about legal responsibility like this: https://insideevs.com/news/575160/mercedes-accepts-legal-responsibility-drive-pilot/ https://insideevs.com/news/575160/mercedes-accepts-legal-res.... In this case, Mercedes, not the the developer, is assuming liability, but that responsibility will trickle down.
    - tut-urut-utut 2y ago
      Why do you think it’s fair for responsibility to trickle down, while profit never goes to engineers.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    That is yet to be determined. There is some pressure in the other direction. I know of one large corporation, that does a lot of work around the world of the kind where programming errors could destroy property or kill people, has strict policies wrt. AI-generated code. This includes an obligation to clearly mark code that was written by AI, as well as restrictions on when it's allowed. This is driven not just by potential IP issues, but also by security and export control. (Yes, in a large enough corp, export control is a source of a surprisingly large amount of extra work...)

fredrikholm 2y ago

> Very Senior(tm) people who would show up uninvited and give advice like "did you know you can pee and poo at the same time?" That gave me a good 5 minutes of chuckling and smiling. Thank you.

autoexecbat 2y ago
Plenty of people struggle with simultaneous action for that. Generally doing one after the other within the same sitting
- lpapez 2y ago
  Absolutely. Good luck explaining that to the A-Team.

rowanG077 2y ago

How dare they try to help the more junior engineers. What horrible people. In all seriousness just accept their advice and see it for what it is. Someone trying to help you with limited view of the scope. As long as they don't impose their view I think your take is extremely bad.