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Are commercial "third places" a dying breed?

• baq 2y ago
  It's going to be an interesting experiment - like what's the point of even going there in the first place? OTOH Italians with coperto are doing completely fine - pay extra to be seated - I assume this would be appalling to the average US consumer, though.
  • pietmichal 2y ago
    In London, it is normal to pay more for the coffee when you are staying in.
• warkanlock 2y ago
  One thing I realized after living in Sweden for eight months is the lack of third places, or at least third places similar to what I found in Italy. In order to go to a place, you need to pay, book an appointment, and be "known." Living in Turin, on the other hand, was a story of magical encounters in the street, bars, clubs, etc. These third places (Murazti, for example) gave me people who have now become very good friends of mine that I can trust. For me, as an immigrant in both countries, it's essential to have those places, and the lack of them made me depressed, sad, and even suicidal (during the Swedish winter). Not having someone to talk to is sad and unhealthy. Let's not make this an endangered species; it is a public health issue.
  • IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
    This is what a community is. This can usually be maintained by local businessowners. Not so much by large megacorps who have no stake in the local community. But, we are making local businessowners an endangered species. How? Ever-increasing regulation, so the only ones left with a budget willing navigate the federal, state, and local regulations - you guessed it, large megacorps.
    • silverquiet 2y ago
      Economies of scale have always pushed businesses towards consolidation - that's literally what I was taught in Econ 101. There were large megacorps in the Gilded Era which long pre-dated the modern regulatory environment. It ultimately took government intervention (trust-busting) to change things.
    • mdgrech23 2y ago
      Since OP mentioned Italy it's worth mentioning places like Rome have plenty of public spaces that easily accessible which are great places to hang out and meet people. Here in the US we have parks by my house but they're really just giant fields w/ a baseball diamond. Maybe a place scape. What good is that for anyone?
  • natoliniak 2y ago
    But it sounds like in Italy you entered the coffee shop to drink coffee and socialize - which fulfills the mission of a coffee shop. However, I noticed that in post-pandemic Poland and the USA where i spend a lot of time, coffee shops are starting to become more like coworking spaces where the "laptop class" is demanding not only perpetual space but worst of all, silence, since they are busy working and concentrating. It is simply not what it used to be.
    • jwoq9118 2y ago
      I disagree with the silence bit. I am a frequent remote worker at coffee shops across the USA and people working have noise canceling headphones usually, I have never seen anyone demand silence in a coffee shop. Libraries are a different story.
      • betaby 2y ago
        We were asked by the staff to re-seat at different table from the 'laptop class' in Montreal cafe because we were speaking in normal voice. Sample of one, but still.
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  • anal_reactor 2y ago
    >magical encounters in the street, bars, clubs, etc. Sounds good, doesn't work. The chance that the stranger has something in common with me, and he's in a mood to talk to me, is extremely low. I kept going out and trying to socialize in such places, but it turned out to be a massive waste of time without even a single tiny success, and as my life keeps getting busier, the mental cost of being around loud strangers makes less and less sense.
    • XajniN 2y ago
      You need to be more intoxicated.
      • anal_reactor 2y ago
        When sober I can manage my social anxiety. When intoxicated, I just panic and need to leave immediately.
    • bradjohnson 2y ago
      One off chance encounters like that on a bar or street put a lot of pressure on the specific encounter and don't allow a more gradual "get to know you" phase. Do you have a social activity that you've neglected with the lack of available friends? Or one that you're interested in but never had the chance to get involved with? This is perhaps mundane advice, but check if there's a group that does that activity and try to become a regular. They're always very welcoming to newcomers and you'll find yourself well established in the group after a few returns.
• sudden_dystopia 2y ago
  Those places cost a lot of money to facilitate. They need to be cleaned and maintained. They require larger bathroom facilities due to the lengths of stays which also need to be cleaned and maintained. They need to pay people to do that. I fully understand that most wages aren’t enough to live on, but this is a direct effect of minimum wage laws. We can have living wages or we can have nice things at the expense of others essentially. But we really can’t have both and I am getting sick and tired of all the gd whining.
  • r2_pilot 2y ago
    I'm sorry that you are growing tired of your fellow humans merely expressing their discontent. Maybe you can help with a solution, since you've heard about people's concerns? I know I try in my small corner of the world to make things better for those around me.
  • JackFr 2y ago
    The bargain used to be, I overpay for coffee because I’m renting the seat. Without a seat, why am I paying?
    • oaiey 2y ago
      Is not it still trendy to run around with a throwaway cup? Basically you are nothing if you cannot afford overpriced coffee. A bit like an iPhone. Maybe my country side, non city lifestyle is talking here. I drink coffee at home and at work. Not in between.
      • JackFr 2y ago
        That is the point. I'm paying to sit at a place that's not work or home (or a bar.)
  • weavejester 2y ago
    Other countries have higher minimum wage but more "third spaces", so I don't think this argument holds water. Also if the minimum wage increases, that puts pressure to increase all other wages.
• neom 2y ago
  Not to diminish the guys work, it's a good read, I just find it amusing he's from Toronto, a place that contains arguably the largest "third place" in the whole world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_(Toronto) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_(Toronto) I was actually walking through it on Monday and noticed they've renovated all the stuff down by Bay and Front, there are LOADS of working areas and eating areas (with and without vendors, HUGE areas of eating area without vendors in fact) - I'm always super impressed by the path, it's a cool thing as someone not native to Toronto.
  • CactusOnFire 2y ago
    I don't want to diminish how interesting the path is, but in my experience, it's still too far out of the way and too purpose-driven to have the organic spontaneity of a good third space.
    • neom 2y ago
      Indeed, on the first point, I live in a condo connected to the path, so obviously extremely useful for me. Not sure if you've been inside recently, but as I mentioned the renovations they've done in the core core core (2-3 blocks of CIBC tower) has really opened it up, before it was just a tunnel to me, it's slowly turning into a "place" - but I do overall agree today it's not quite there for most of the core (and will never be great for those outside it, it's way too hard to navigate if you don't use it daily)
  • kevincox 2y ago
    I'm a Toronto native and the PATH is very cool, but I don't know how great of a third place it is. It does have public seating and tables, but they are spread out and often not very large. Also almost all of the shops are closed down on weekends (it is basically a ghost town) including the washrooms. Together this makes it seem much more like a large cafeteria and shops for people going to or from work. But I don't know if that qualifies it as the best third place. That being said Toronto is decent at third places, we have decent park density and a good handful of public spaces like city hall and a good distribution of quality public libraries. So maybe I am just coming from a place of privilege.
• walterbell 2y ago
  > Most egregiously, all of the window seating is gone, and in its space stand faux chic leather leaning bars that most closely resemble what a horse would be tied to outside a saloon. Some NYC Starbucks previously had tables, now have ... nothing at the window. Saw a guy with laptop in one hand and coffee in the other, standing there for at least 15 minutes, with occasional gymnastics to interact with laptop. They could rebrand to Stanbucks.
  • posix_monad 2y ago
    Blank Street is eating their lunch
    • ch4s3 2y ago
      Makes sense, Blank street is cheaper, higher quality, and you don't have to wait for several people to rattle off multiple paragraph long orders.
• blakesterz 2y ago
  I like the point made way down at the bottom, especially about libraries: For readers looking to find Third Places the good news is that for now they do still exist throughout the city. However, without regular patrons that could always change. Seek out the cafes, reading rooms, and esoteric bookstores of Kensington Market. For world renowned collections of books and high speed free public Wi-Fi, one hundred Toronto Public Libraries are scattered throughout the city. For close quarters laughs many small bars host casual open-mic nights for everything from comedy to music to poetry. Also, seems wrong to not even mention Tim's. Are Tim Hortons in Toronto not like Tim Hortons outside of Toronto? Maybe they're too small to qualify as a third place?
  • glitchc 2y ago
    Tim's used to be the original third place up north. In smaller communities or local (blue collar) enclaves, it still is. It's the blue collar connotation that's lead to their declining use in urban centers.
    • khalladay 2y ago
      I'm not sure its 100% "blue collar connections." That may be part of it, but the quality of food/drinks at starbucks has gone down dramatically in the past 5-10 years. I worked full time there for awhile and happily ate hundreds of meals there. Now I won'tbeven touch my favourite donuts (#sourcreamglazedgang) I dont know if its a corporate level thing or a franchise level thing, but man, Tim's sucks now [edit: i meant to say the quality of tim's food has gone down, not starbucks]
      • chongli 2y ago
        I think it’s a mixture of corporate decisions and economic forces. For one thing, commercial real estate has skyrocketed even moreso than residential. If you’re a franchisee and your lease has shot through the roof but you can’t raise food prices then you’re going to demand corporate switch to cheaper ingredients and processes.
      • glitchc 2y ago
• dalben 2y ago
  I wonder if OpenStreetMap has historical information easily available and easily queryable. It'd be interesting to see the evolution of the number of benches in cities and parks. My feeling is that they have been disappearing in my area, and it feels harder to find good spots to sit and read a book.
• RatchetWerks 2y ago
  I noticed this too with my local Starbucks stores. It seems boils down to revenue. If too many people sit down and use the area as a third place, then their revenue is capped if people stay too long. Ideally it's should be a balance between customers and business. Go to the coffee shop, work for an hour then leave, to free up space. I've also noticed they reduce seating to battle homeless folks from nesting in. It makes sense, I avoid stores if feel threatened from confrontational/aggressive people.
  • datpiff 2y ago
    Isn't Starbucks business very heavily biased towards takeout orders? They have higher through-put on coffee sales if all the seats are full - how many people leave without ordering if the seats are in use?
  • pvdoom 2y ago
    > Ideally it's should be a balance between customers and business Nah, I think for it to be a proper third place, revenue and business should really really be secondary to everything.
    • pixl97 2y ago
      Property costs and taxes are just too high for that to occur in most places, especially big cities where these said costs have skyrocketed.
      • pvdoom 2y ago
        Yup, which is probably one of the reasons why those third places get undone
    • fnordpiglet 2y ago
      In retail that usually makes it turn into a fourth place - the store front this replaces the third place.
      • 2y ago
• lotsofpulp 2y ago
  The article does not touch on an important aspect of third places, at least in the US, which is liability. See this event that may have caused Starbucks to recalculate its liability costs for providing a third place. https://www.npr.org/2023/06/15/1182359923/ex-starbucks-manager-awarded-25-6-million-in-case-tied-to-arrests-of-2-black-men https://www.npr.org/2023/06/15/1182359923/ex-starbucks-manag... The tort environment in the US is gumming up the gears big time, and I believe it to be one of the undercurrents of change. Every business decision begins with the question “how do we limit our liability exposure?”. One way is to separate the land asset from the business, so it is not at risk in lawsuits. This diminishes the incentive to create businesses, since the rent seeking portion of the business is even more profitable, and the productive portion of the business is less profitable. Another is to have cameras everywhere. And another is to require higher prices and/or credit cards, to service as credit checks to filter customers. And obviously, the last but not least, is to simply eliminate third places and eliminate potential interaction between employees and the broader public.
  • jkaplowitz 2y ago
    That example of liability only seems very tangentially related to third place activity. The lawsuit was over a discriminatory employee firing that was seemingly undertaken for reasons of public relations and community reputation, to mitigate these aspects of the impact to Starbucks of the original event. The triggering event could just as easily have been any number of other scenarios unrelated to third place usage patterns - and even unrelated to customer behavior. It was just an employment discrimination matter, period. What’s more, this original triggering event was arresting a Black person who didn’t order anything, whereas most people who go to commercial third places (including most such Black people) do order at least one thing, even when they occupy their seat for far too long for the amount of money they spend.
    • lotsofpulp 2y ago
      > It was just an employment discrimination matter, period. It is tangentially related, but I believe the results were all the same. And perhaps the root cause was actually quelling the rage machine enabled by social media and the internet, but either way, the business decision remains: How do we reduce the possibility this happens again? Regardless of how correct the Starbucks’ employees actions were in asking a non paying person to leave, and regardless of the fact that it is police who arrest people, not Starbucks employees, the event may have contributed to Starbucks’ executives concluding that the cost of providing the third place is not worth the benefit. Looking at this another way, coffee and sugary drinks are a fungible commodity. If Starbucks is removing third places, why is there no competitor stepping in with a third place and taking their business?
• throw383y8 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • walterbell 2y ago
    In Canada?
    • jpalawaga 2y ago
      Canada is not immune to those issues. Maybe not in some communities, but certainly ones I’ve lived in.
• andyjohnson0 2y ago
  Cafés and coffee shops near to where I live [1] are frequently rammed with people on laptops. I'm sure they're mostly diligent in buying drinks every hour or so, but I feel bad for the proprietors - its hard to see how they make much money. I've seen people with multiple spare laptop batteries along with their bags etc., clearly intent on long-term occupation of their chosen table. Wasn't like this before covid. The article mentions public libraries, and the branch library near me looks good as a place for maybe getting some work done - albeit with more background noise than I'd like. [1] Relatively prosperous, professional, urban, northern England
  • the_real_cher 2y ago
    I saw someone once set up an entire desktop that they hauled in in a giant duffel bag.
    • HeckFeck 2y ago
      Dedication. I would love to know his CS:GO rank.
    • astura 2y ago
      >I saw someone once set up an entire desktop that they hauled in in a giant duffel bag Was it Aubrey Plaza? https://youtu.be/EKEeHREK2nQ https://youtu.be/EKEeHREK2nQ
      • HeckFeck 2y ago
        Now I want to try this with my Macintosh SE, which is at least more luggable than those desktops.
      • the_real_cher 2y ago
        Haha brilliant NO this was a real dude not even a prank.
  • beeboobaa3 2y ago
    Restaurants have a long history of asking people to leave if they occupy a table for too long. Cafes could do the same if they deem it worth it.
• nytesky 2y ago
  That was their original plan https://www.fastcompany.com/887990/starbucks-third-place-and-creating-ultimate-customer-experience https://www.fastcompany.com/887990/starbucks-third-place-and... But the rise of remote work and just an enormous class of workers looking for a free “office” has exploded. I’m sure they have been overrun with squatters buying 1 coffee and sitting for 7 hours — I bet their electricity and bathroom use alone makes them unprofitable. And they displace other transient customers who may have stayed and ordered more like when meeting a friend. The model is broken at this tragedy of the commons scale. They do not want to be in business of policing tables usage, and always run the risk of having to displace someone and having it escalate to some kind of video captured confrontation or shaming.
  • maroonblazer 2y ago
    Not to mention they seem to have also morphed into child daycare centers, at least the ones I frequent. Moms bringing their toddlers to run around and scream at the top of their lungs makes getting almost any meaningful work done impossible.
    • etempleton 2y ago
      Panera Breads are a special hell now.
  • mensetmanusman 2y ago
    If only there was a company that rented space and provided office workers with options to work anywhere. We could work together!
    • nytesky 2y ago
      WeWork in my town is $300/month. 1 coffee every day works out to $80/month, and there is no commitment. And you can probably get by with a cheaper than $4 coffee.
  • dave78 2y ago
    The author of this article as well as many comments here are talking about this as a "third place" issue, but "third place" is 3rd because there's 2 others before it: home and workplace. From what I can tell, the author is really looking for a workplace. I think the problem is that some WFH-types[1] have co-opted all the third places and have turned them into cheap workplaces, and coffee shops can't afford to be a coworking space (1 coffee for 7 hours as you say, which I'm sure more people do than some people here believe). [1] I say this as a 100% remote person myself. But I've never felt right going to a coffee shop or restaurant and sitting there for more than an hour or so.
• havblue 2y ago
  I had a friend in college who would go to Starbucks every weekend, order a drip coffee and read a copy of the New York Times for hours. After, he would put the newspaper back without paying for it. So I always wonder about how these places find a balance with customers that are profitable and those that are, well, moochers.
  • trgn 2y ago
    libraries are really popular for this, but you don't get to enjoy the drink. wondering if libraries instead should start to serve drinks.
• kleiba 2y ago
  > Starbucks [...] were an industry leader that understood the impact that providing a *comfortable café environment* had on the experience of spending time within their stores. Sorry, perhaps mine is too European a perspective, but are you kidding?
  • p_l 2y ago
    I think it's more that a lot of Starbucks expansion in Europe happened when they already started switching gears to standard less compatible with providing a "Third Space".
  • twelfthnight 2y ago
    I'm an American and I don't get it either. There are tons of local coffee shops _everywhere_ in America, most with better coffee, happier baristas and unique atmosphere. Have so many Americans/Canadians never... like... been to a coffee shop that's not Starbucks?
  • trgn 2y ago
    not kidding. Starbucks 25 years ago was pretty much like the friends one.
    • kleiba 2y ago
      Oh, I had no idea. Interesting, thanks.
• mgkimsal 2y ago
  I run a coworking space in a small town. We have a small university-type institution within walking distance, and years ago, I thought students might want to subscribe to a 'night-owl' type space. Late night study hall sort of thing (the campus library closes at 9, and most other places are closed by then too). Someone in the office indicated many students were studying at a sheetz gas station (24 hr) at 1am, because there was 'no place else to go'. I'd connected with some, and said "hey, I've got an overnight study hall for $29/month - electronic door code, free coffee/tea/snacks - are you interested?" You'd have thought I'd have insulted their family. I had multiple people become indignant with "I'm a poor college student! I can't afford that! No way! Do you know how expensive school is?!?!". They're paying at least $3/night on coffee minimum anywhere they go, and often more. EDIT: quick followup to a bunch of answers. I'm not sure I said it was completely irrational, but... weird. This was just in the last several years - people are paying $400+/credit hour, and using credit/debit cards for everything. Yes, I remember only having a few $ in my pocket, back when the world lived on cash, and conserving every dollar was of the utmost importance. Charging people $1/night... inevitably on a card... nets you about .70c. My point was to try to at least break even, and provide a service to some folks. Making $4/night from 5-6 people, then spending $5 in coffee/tea/snacks... I'm losing money. I guess if I made it up in volume and sold it to a VC, I'd have been rolling in it. As it was, I didn't. It was an idea I floated by people, and it was not received well. Thank you for the responses.
  • eloisius 2y ago
    It's not as irrational a decision as you make it sound. They may spend $3 per day instead of $30 for the month, but they preserve their optionality. College is typically a turbulent time, and paying $30 up front for a service that you end up not needing because your schedule changes unexpectedly would suck.
    • chii 2y ago
      I think the offer should've been to have a $1/night fee, with free instant coffee/water/tea. but of course, the coffee they buy at the station is worth the $3 (apparently), and the location was free in their minds. Therefore, the comparison is to have to pay another $3 for coffee else where and then bring it into this space they rent (and pay another $1). That's obviously sounds like a bad deal.
• Joel_Mckay 2y ago
  Nestlé did to Starbucks what they did to chocolate bars. =3
• the__alchemist 2y ago
  Coffee shops are still a decent place for this (eg in North Carolina cities), although I didn't realize people did this as Starbucks! There are four within a few blocks of me I bounce around between. I would love to see more of these Third places. I hadn't heard of the concept, but it makes sense.
• exabrial 2y ago
  This is a tough topic to bring up on HN because no matter how you write it somebody find something to nitpick you about. I certainly am not shitting on anyone that is down on their life I am active in my community, both monetarily and physically helping those in need. The reason for this renovations is to keep homeless individuals from camping inside the stores. The author goes off on a lot of tangents on topics he has strong/biased opinions (unions, corporate greed, etc) on but this was not highlighted as the primary cause. Retail business is hard. You _do_ want to be charitable, but you also have to make profits to survive. Unfortunately even a single unsanitary individual present can drive away paying customers. Not here to offer solutions, but I think it’s important to be point out the root cause.
  • walterbell 2y ago
    > to keep homeless individuals from camping inside the store Why wasn't that a problem for the previous 20 years of Starbucks existence? Managers of NYC restaurants (including Starbucks) are usually quite familiar with specific local individuals that may not be welcome in their establishment, and have a variety of techniques for managing occupancy.
    • IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
      Because there are far more homeless now due to the fentanyl invention and uptake.
      • bumby 2y ago
        Fentanyl is not a new invention, it’s been around for decades.
        • IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
          Yea, but its use only exploded exactly 2 decades ago, when deaths attributed to it doubled from 4 years prior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fentanyl_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fentanyl_crisis
• aeblyve 2y ago
  The role of rising cost of living (or more generally, interest rates and the "cost of money") are factors I find underdiscussed in this article. Owners must run an increasingly sleeker operation -- meanwhile, the consumer has to work more jobs or more hours to make ends meet, and doesn't have the time to lounge around and chat.
  • rchaud 2y ago
    How're they running a sleeker operation by paying for renovations that do nothing to increase business?
• twelfthnight 2y ago
  The author's library is being renovated, not disappearing. One large corporation (Starbucks) is enshittifying its experience by removing seating. I don't think the premise "third spaces are disappearing" is a valid conclusion at all. I don't know if third spaces are indeed going away or not, but the argument here doesn't really address that. By the way, if you don't like it don't buy Starbucks. Don't use Amazon. Don't use Twitter .(If you have the option). Not spending money/attention is more effective than complaining at changing companies' behavior.
• karaterobot 2y ago
  Starbucks probably shouldn't have been anybody's only third place to begin with. Their mandate is not to be a community resource, as it turns out. It's a public company, it was always going to change to maximize other variables than your mental health. All that stuff about being a third place drops away really quickly when put to the test. This is not advanced math, it's pretty common sense. Instead, try to pick a spot that's owned by someone in the community, who actually cares about the community they're a part of. "Oh, but there aren't many other options, Starbucks put them all out of business". Well, at least it's cheap and convenient, I guess. Revealed preferences. Better hope that's enough!
  • twelfthnight 2y ago
    Totally agree. And I honestly don't think Starbucks removing seating has much if any impact on reducing "third spaces" since almost everyone buying Starbucks was getting it to go anyway. This article reads more like someone being annoyed about Starbucks changing than any real evidence that third spaces are going away. If anything, if more people are now using coffeeshops as remote offices we are likely to see new shops catered to this opening up.
• kredd 2y ago
  It’s so sad to see how major chains are doing a quick reno and removing most of the seating. Just like the author, I also live in a dense Canadian neighbourhood, and there’s a Starbucks a block away from my place which pulled the same thing last year. Another sad reality is, even though it’s a corporate initiative, it’s only happening in specific countries. Whoever lives in Japan or South Korea, can attest to the fact how every global chain operates on a different level over there. Obviously “you shouldn’t drink on the street” cultural norm affects the business decisions, but still, it’s just sad to see how there are less and less people just hang out in public.
• chevman 2y ago
  I see these types of complaints all the time now it seems on social media, NextDoor, etc. Everyone thinks everything is dying when their favorite whatever closes down or changes something. Such is progress - there are plenty of "third places" - both commercial and non-commercial. And those places may shut down! And new ones will open up!
• csomar 2y ago
  There is a kind of a concept I've been to recently: A work-friendly cafe. It was not a co-working space. It was not a cafe. It was something in between. Pros: - You don't need to worry about battery or your laptop being stolen. Plenty of charging ports and space is open and owner is looking after. - It's relatively quiet as most people were working themselves. Most seemed to be students. - You pay by day/half-day. You have the space for the fulltime the place is open plus free black coffee and water. You can order extra.
  • kilotaras 2y ago
    > A work-friendly cafe Funnily enough, what you're describing is actually called anti-cafe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-caf%C3%A9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-caf%C3%A9
• mleo 2y ago
  One Starbucks nearer to where I used to live transitioned to this mobile pickup model removing all the indoor seating. I have been there a couple of times since the remodel and it is just weird to walk into knowing it used to be a meeting place for people to talk and spend some time. Now, if I go out to work, maybe once a week, I try to limit my time there to an hour or two tops. I also try to go to places that are likely to be more empty at the moment and not preventing any person from finding a seat if they walk in.
• Kon5ole 2y ago
  >Finding a public space to sit down and write this article was a struggle. Is it a third place if you perform work there? Seems to me that the "second place" has increasingly leaked into both the first and third places, making the distinction blurry.
• paulcole 2y ago
  I mean the reality clearly is that while most people claim to long for a “third place” what they really mean is “Place where they can scroll on their phone while alone and pay nothing.” Once you realize that, it’s obvious why “commercial third places” are dying. People don’t want what they claim they want.
• quacked 2y ago
  The lack of fellowship between citizens is both a result and a cause of the decline of "third places", and is part of a large decline in civic life among Americans. People don't know or like the other citizens in their towns and cities; the cultural and class-education divides are enormous. They also lack the temerity to use law enforcement to clean up (trash-, dirt-, and behavior-wise) public spaces to reserve them for those seeking socializing without disruption, or to use the legal system to push back on car-centric design, or to use their money on creative aesthetics to make it nicer to be in public spaces.
• Grumbledour 2y ago
  If the shops are full of people working, are they not a second place? Of course it sucks if removing the free second place also removes the third place, but it really seems to stem from a cultural problem of people using coffee shops as coworking spaces? Of course, the market could correct with starbucks's business going to other coffee shops that could offer these services, though they probably need to reign in the abuse a bit to make it profitable.
• etempleton 2y ago
  Something that I haven’t seen mention is the combination of Covid-19 shifting consumer behavior and the rise of DoorDash and others. A number of restaurants in my town never went back to offering seating and instead have a dedicated pickup spot for DoorDash. I went to do carry out from a local restaurant that had a small bar section as well as a restaurant section and thought I might have a drink while I waited. I wasn’t able to because the whole bar section was strictly for carry out now.
• snakeyjake 2y ago
  There are more third spaces in North America today than have ever existed in the history of humanity, both commercial and non-commercial. Every time someone claims otherwise I ask for evidence but have never received any. (except for the decrease in the number of bowling alleys, ok you got me there that's ONE) In support of my assertion, I give evidence of the constantly increasing number of public parks, public libraries, and places of amusement like maker spaces, restaurants, and the like. For example, in the US there are approximately 500 more libraries today than there were 20 years ago. There are, depending on how you count, 100 more public parks. It is easier and more engaging to be a pessimist though. It's like how decrepitly old ham radio operators constantly complain about how the hobby is dying despite there being more licensees and a wider variety of projects being undertaken as part of the hobby than ever. There are things to do and people to meet everywhere, on every street of every city, EVEN IN THE SUBURBS YOU PRETEND TO DESPISE, and people are too busy bitching on the internet about how there aren't to realize it.
  • havblue 2y ago
    I think the elephant in the room with this discussion is homelessness. Aside from public parks and libraries though, I think you can quantify that churches, social clubs and bars are in decline. While these places still exist, many of the options that people used to exercise for going out in public are no longer being considered as much.
  • evanelias 2y ago
    > For example, in the US there are approximately 500 more libraries today than there were 20 years ago. There are, depending on how you count, 100 more public parks. I'm not sure how useful these absolute numbers are. At minimum I'd think you would need to normalize against population growth. According to Google, US population has grown by ~17% in the past 20 years. But even separate from that, US-wide stats may not be informative about whether libraries and parks are over-crowded in any given state or metro area. I wouldn't assume the root cause of these complaints is necessarily pessimism. Ironically, that assumption itself seems a bit pessimistic too!
• xhkkffbf 2y ago
  Third places? Some of the companies I work with don't even want to be a "second place". They are giving up their office space to let people work from home.
• redsparrow 2y ago
  > The Starbucks this piece occupies is no longer a community hub – its capacity to function as one has been filtered out by profit-seeking decisions To be fair, I think the reason that it formerly sought to be a community hub was also motivated by profit-seeking decisions. Maybe when there were a handful of locations the comfy seating was motivated by something other than profit. I imagine by the time they opened store number 20,000 that the design of the store, including the comfy seating, was very careful designed to seek profit.