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After I've consented... right.... right guys!? I really worry that the financial incentives for this are all wrong. MSFT has a massive incentive to obstinately

After I've consented... right.... right guys!? I really worry that the financial incentives for this are all wrong. MSFT has a massive incentive to obstinately push AI interference into every element of their products. They must show traction to justify the continued exuberance around AI in the stock market. But a tool like this just has so much scope to make the user experience worse. I know what I want to do on my computer, do I need some AI clippy to ask if I need help. Windows has been on a strong downward trajectory for a while now - and that's been a conscious decision. In the last week I can remember my computer - unprompted - telling me the pollen count, a football score, 10 teas to sip for international tea day. That the FTSE Auto Index is down 3.24% (just go that now). None of that information is useful to me, I feel a strong sense of hatred towards windows now and I will be dumping this computer as soon as possible. But that's me, the user, I'm not who Satya Nadella cares about, Satya cares about saying "300% annual growth rate of AI usage" so that their numbers go up and to the right and I think it's going to drive me away from MSFT products completely.

ASalazarMX 2y ago
I think they dropped the bomb now so they could test the waters. If there's enough pushback, they'll slow down, make it opt-in, etc., but the goal is still even more spying. Data mining the users of the most popular desktop operating system is a too huge profit opportunity to miss for ethical reasons.
kotaKat 2y ago
Microsoft doesn’t care about user consent. You can say “yes” or “not now”. “No” is not a vocabulary word in Microsoft anymore.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  The EU cares about user consent. So just like with Teams and Edge defaults, we're likely to see similar pushbacks on EU versions of windows. It's how I still don't have copilot on my Windows install despite the update bringing it to windows came to the US months ago. Or how certain employee tracking features in Azure/Office 365 are not available in EU.
- RegW 2y ago
  Where "not now" could be a euphemism for "I don't want to, but there always a hope that they will change their minds later and won't force me", or perhaps it means "I want to wait until everyone else has caved, and my laptop no longer functional". I only continue to use Windows for work because it is mandated. All new work laptops come with at least one day of entertainment called "setting up". Where the myriad options are explored for the possibility of duplicity, breaking data collection and plain old contrarianism.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    Probably wouldn't fly for a work laptop, but I've been setting up Windows VMs recently using the "AtlasOS" thing and it seems to strip out all of the MS crap properly: https://atlasos.net https://atlasos.net Not a long term user of those VMs though, so I have no clue how they behave over a period of months (etc).
- ryandrake 2y ago
  Not just Microsoft, but all of Silicon Valley has a huge problem with end-user consent. If "The Software Industry" was a nightclub, it would be full of creepy guys hitting on women with "Do you want to dance? [Yes | Ask Me Again Later]"
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
atoav 2y ago
I am not a Microsoft-hater per sé, but the amount of times I had to repeatedly tell them No on a question they had asked me before is staggering. E.g. I know I don't want to use Edge, yet it feels like one of those nightmares where you fight a thing that won't die. It keeps coming back and this is just one of those things. Since I now played Fallout 4 without crashes on my Ubuntu system, I can't help but wonder if my future will be completely Windows-free at some point.
- BLKNSLVR 2y ago
  Microsoft's AI chatbot will recall everything you do. Except if it's a pattern that doesn't match what's perceived to be in the incredibly short term interests of Microsoft's shareholders.
  - robbomacrae 2y ago
    Gmail pushes chrome as a default browser repeatedly too. No way to turn that off. The system knows you don't want it (having already said no 15 times) its just hoping the 16th time you will accidentally click yes. I suspect as search evolves AI will no doubt be better at sneaking in less accurate but more lucrative results.
    - wkat4242 2y ago
      At least Chrome doesn't come with unwanted shopping bars that bug you about coupons.
    - weberer 2y ago
      >No way to turn that off At least you can hide those with a uBlock filter. You can't do shit if its baked into your operating system. (Aside from deleting the whole thing and installing an OS that respects your freedoms)
      - robbomacrae 2y ago
        Thank you for this tip!
quaintdev 2y ago
Maybe just all this AI stuff pushes users towards Linux and we all can finally have "The year of Linux"
- lynx23 2y ago
  Are you talking about the same year when Linux will finally suceeed on the Desktop? :-)
  - cjk2 2y ago
    Been waiting for 25 years now. Next year will be the one.
    - hparadiz 2y ago
      I just hit 4 years of using Linux as my daily driver and gaming on it. If you want to switch you can.
      - tracker1 2y ago
        Been using linux for decades, became the main OS on my desktop a couple years ago... and now my SO, after seeing this "feature" is switching even.
      - cjk2 2y ago
        I don't want it. I rather like my Mac :)
        justinclift 2y ago
        Well, it'll never be the Year of Linux for you then, and that's ok. :)
  - Buttons840 2y ago
    On an optimistic note, I think Linux will keep pace with LLM integration, because LLMs have a high coolness-to-code-required-ratio. Linux UI has always been half text-based terminals anyway. Also, if we get an open LLM that users can run on their own computers, it's just over, there's not much room for Windows to improve over that, and the incentive are very strong for Windows to be worse.
chx 2y ago
> After I've consented Well LLMs have already stolen everything you ever wrote or posted online. We told y'all to advocate for a very strict regulation of these things. But no. Instead: It's amazing. It's world changing. Yes. It's going to change the world. For much worse. If you thought Citizens United damaged democracy just wait. Elections will be won by those with the most compute aka the most money everywhere. People will die of this bullshit. I can't foretell how but they will. I mean, I haven't foreseen AI generated mushroom books but I am absolute certain this technology is deadly. Just wait. Everything AI generated should come with an unskippable, extremely obvious huge warning of being AI generated and free of facts. If the AI companies won't add these then we should force them by regulation. But no. Hype instead.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  > Well LLMs have already stolen everything you ever wrote or posted online. I kind of expected that someone will steal something I write or post online, so this doesn’t particularly bother me.
- lynx23 2y ago
  How can anything you put online be "stolen" anyways? Its a 30 year old truth that you shouldn't put anything online you dont want anyone else to use... Long before LLMs were a reality. Why the fuzz now?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - chx 2y ago
    I do not recall any such truth. It's a truism the Internet doesn't forget. But copyright is copyright and copying some work just because it's published on the Internet is illegal, it always was and still is.
    - lynx23 2y ago
      A law is only relevant if you are able to enforce it. I suspect if you arent a huge corporation, you'll likely have a hard time enforcing your copyright. So, the truth for individuals still stands. Dont put it online if you dont want it to be pirated. And huge corporations have a legal department protecting its interests, so tzhey dont need support from the public....
cynicalsecurity 2y ago
Switch to Linux. It's long time overdue.
wslh 2y ago
> After I've consented... right.... right guys!? My two cents: no, the refusing option will be deep in the UI and surely you will need to use a combination of CTRL, ALTs, etc to make it visible before you check it out. Many times it is more difficult to (securely, optimally, etc) configure a Microsoft Windows desktop than a Microsoft Server with Active Directory, and MS Exchange.
benterix 2y ago
> But that's me, the user, I'm not who Satya Nadella cares about, Satya cares about saying "300% annual growth rate of AI usage" so that their numbers go up and to the right and I think it's going to drive me away from MSFT products completely. You might be surprised. Satya reads Hacker News and there is an internal Microsoft initiative to promote Microsoft tech here[0]: > In fact this morning I was reading a news article in Hacker News, which is a community where we have been working hard to make sure that Azure is growing in popularity and I was pleasantly surprised to see that we have made a lot of progress. In some sense that at least basically said that we’re neck to neck with Amazon when it comes to even elite developers as represented in that community. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/investor/events/fy-2019/earnings-fy-2019-q1.aspx https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/investor/events/fy-2019/earn...
1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
How much abuse can users take. Microsoft knows it's unlimited. Users have no alternatives. In the places where it is used, Windows still has no significant competition.

ASalazarMX 2y ago

I think they dropped the bomb now so they could test the waters. If there's enough pushback, they'll slow down, make it opt-in, etc., but the goal is still even more spying. Data mining the users of the most popular desktop operating system is a too huge profit opportunity to miss for ethical reasons.

kotaKat 2y ago

Microsoft doesn’t care about user consent. You can say “yes” or “not now”. “No” is not a vocabulary word in Microsoft anymore.

Rinzler89 2y ago
The EU cares about user consent. So just like with Teams and Edge defaults, we're likely to see similar pushbacks on EU versions of windows. It's how I still don't have copilot on my Windows install despite the update bringing it to windows came to the US months ago. Or how certain employee tracking features in Azure/Office 365 are not available in EU.
RegW 2y ago
Where "not now" could be a euphemism for "I don't want to, but there always a hope that they will change their minds later and won't force me", or perhaps it means "I want to wait until everyone else has caved, and my laptop no longer functional". I only continue to use Windows for work because it is mandated. All new work laptops come with at least one day of entertainment called "setting up". Where the myriad options are explored for the possibility of duplicity, breaking data collection and plain old contrarianism.
- justinclift 2y ago
  Probably wouldn't fly for a work laptop, but I've been setting up Windows VMs recently using the "AtlasOS" thing and it seems to strip out all of the MS crap properly: https://atlasos.net https://atlasos.net Not a long term user of those VMs though, so I have no clue how they behave over a period of months (etc).
ryandrake 2y ago
Not just Microsoft, but all of Silicon Valley has a huge problem with end-user consent. If "The Software Industry" was a nightclub, it would be full of creepy guys hitting on women with "Do you want to dance? [Yes | Ask Me Again Later]"

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

atoav 2y ago

I am not a Microsoft-hater per sé, but the amount of times I had to repeatedly tell them No on a question they had asked me before is staggering. E.g. I know I don't want to use Edge, yet it feels like one of those nightmares where you fight a thing that won't die. It keeps coming back and this is just one of those things. Since I now played Fallout 4 without crashes on my Ubuntu system, I can't help but wonder if my future will be completely Windows-free at some point.

BLKNSLVR 2y ago
Microsoft's AI chatbot will recall everything you do. Except if it's a pattern that doesn't match what's perceived to be in the incredibly short term interests of Microsoft's shareholders.
- robbomacrae 2y ago
  Gmail pushes chrome as a default browser repeatedly too. No way to turn that off. The system knows you don't want it (having already said no 15 times) its just hoping the 16th time you will accidentally click yes. I suspect as search evolves AI will no doubt be better at sneaking in less accurate but more lucrative results.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    At least Chrome doesn't come with unwanted shopping bars that bug you about coupons.
  - weberer 2y ago
    >No way to turn that off At least you can hide those with a uBlock filter. You can't do shit if its baked into your operating system. (Aside from deleting the whole thing and installing an OS that respects your freedoms)
    - robbomacrae 2y ago
      Thank you for this tip!

quaintdev 2y ago

Maybe just all this AI stuff pushes users towards Linux and we all can finally have "The year of Linux"

lynx23 2y ago
Are you talking about the same year when Linux will finally suceeed on the Desktop? :-)
- cjk2 2y ago
  Been waiting for 25 years now. Next year will be the one.
  - hparadiz 2y ago
    I just hit 4 years of using Linux as my daily driver and gaming on it. If you want to switch you can.
    - tracker1 2y ago
      Been using linux for decades, became the main OS on my desktop a couple years ago... and now my SO, after seeing this "feature" is switching even.
    - cjk2 2y ago
      I don't want it. I rather like my Mac :)
      - justinclift 2y ago
        Well, it'll never be the Year of Linux for you then, and that's ok. :)
- Buttons840 2y ago
  On an optimistic note, I think Linux will keep pace with LLM integration, because LLMs have a high coolness-to-code-required-ratio. Linux UI has always been half text-based terminals anyway. Also, if we get an open LLM that users can run on their own computers, it's just over, there's not much room for Windows to improve over that, and the incentive are very strong for Windows to be worse.

chx 2y ago

> After I've consented Well LLMs have already stolen everything you ever wrote or posted online. We told y'all to advocate for a very strict regulation of these things. But no. Instead: It's amazing. It's world changing. Yes. It's going to change the world. For much worse. If you thought Citizens United damaged democracy just wait. Elections will be won by those with the most compute aka the most money everywhere. People will die of this bullshit. I can't foretell how but they will. I mean, I haven't foreseen AI generated mushroom books but I am absolute certain this technology is deadly. Just wait. Everything AI generated should come with an unskippable, extremely obvious huge warning of being AI generated and free of facts. If the AI companies won't add these then we should force them by regulation. But no. Hype instead.

Aeolun 2y ago
> Well LLMs have already stolen everything you ever wrote or posted online. I kind of expected that someone will steal something I write or post online, so this doesn’t particularly bother me.
lynx23 2y ago
How can anything you put online be "stolen" anyways? Its a 30 year old truth that you shouldn't put anything online you dont want anyone else to use... Long before LLMs were a reality. Why the fuzz now?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- chx 2y ago
  I do not recall any such truth. It's a truism the Internet doesn't forget. But copyright is copyright and copying some work just because it's published on the Internet is illegal, it always was and still is.
  - lynx23 2y ago
    A law is only relevant if you are able to enforce it. I suspect if you arent a huge corporation, you'll likely have a hard time enforcing your copyright. So, the truth for individuals still stands. Dont put it online if you dont want it to be pirated. And huge corporations have a legal department protecting its interests, so tzhey dont need support from the public....

cynicalsecurity 2y ago

Switch to Linux. It's long time overdue.

wslh 2y ago

> After I've consented... right.... right guys!? My two cents: no, the refusing option will be deep in the UI and surely you will need to use a combination of CTRL, ALTs, etc to make it visible before you check it out. Many times it is more difficult to (securely, optimally, etc) configure a Microsoft Windows desktop than a Microsoft Server with Active Directory, and MS Exchange.

benterix 2y ago

> But that's me, the user, I'm not who Satya Nadella cares about, Satya cares about saying "300% annual growth rate of AI usage" so that their numbers go up and to the right and I think it's going to drive me away from MSFT products completely. You might be surprised. Satya reads Hacker News and there is an internal Microsoft initiative to promote Microsoft tech here[0]: > In fact this morning I was reading a news article in Hacker News, which is a community where we have been working hard to make sure that Azure is growing in popularity and I was pleasantly surprised to see that we have made a lot of progress. In some sense that at least basically said that we’re neck to neck with Amazon when it comes to even elite developers as represented in that community. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/investor/events/fy-2019/earnings-fy-2019-q1.aspx https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/investor/events/fy-2019/earn...

1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago

How much abuse can users take. Microsoft knows it's unlimited. Users have no alternatives. In the places where it is used, Windows still has no significant competition.