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One of my previous (job) tasks was to monitor larger vessels, and analyze where they'd end up getting torn apart. Turns out western shipping companies don't li

One of my previous (job) tasks was to monitor larger vessels, and analyze where they'd end up getting torn apart. Turns out western shipping companies don't like paying western prices for that kind of work, and try to sneak the vessels down to India, Bangladesh, etc. where that kind of work is much cheaper. But with cheaper prices comes a host of issues, from the environmental effects, to human workers actually performing the dangerous work. Sometimes these things can fail spectacularly - like when they try to sail or tow the vessel, end up drifting to land, and create huge oil spills.

throw383y8 2y ago
Well, West should stop dumping their garbage to the rest of the world. It is easy to have strict environmental regulations, if they are not enforced, and negative externalities are exported.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > Well, West should stop dumping their garbage to the rest of the world. Actually the export of ships to be wrecked in Asia already is banned under EU law and international treaties - and sometimes, even company owners can and do land in jail for violating them, as it happened to Georg Eide [1]. The difficulty lies in the fact that many ships aren't registered in the EU countries, but in small countries like Antigua who don't have any incentive to help out European countries enforce their laws, and by many ships being legally hidden between layers of shell companies. It can go as far as there being a dedicated LLC in yet another tax haven per ship, and once the ship is to be wrecked, it isn't the ship itself that's being sold for wrecking (because that would be openly illegal and easy to catch and prove for authorities), but the LLC is being sold, and the lax attitude towards audit and public records requirements in the tax havens makes it very difficult to prove illegal intent. [1] https://www.freitag.de/autoren/julia-lauter/reedereien-lassen-alte-frachter-im-globalen-sueden-abwracken https://www.freitag.de/autoren/julia-lauter/reedereien-lasse...
  - jopsen 2y ago
    We could require that ships they dock in EU harbours are owned by countries that are party to some international anti-ship breaking agreement. But it's a lot of paperwork :)
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      Still would not prevent just selling the LLC at the end of the ship's useful life. And I'm not sure how to effectively police that.
      - Teever 2y ago
        Find the names of the people involved, get a warrant and use the full power of that impressive global surveillance system that we've created to fight the global war on terror to surveil them and find evidence of other crimes that they've surely committed and prosecute the fuck out of them for that.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Seems like a lot of work to prevent India from breaking ships it wants to break.
        Teever 2y ago
        Meaningless statement. You can say the exact same thing about any law.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Not every law tries to regulate the behavior of people in other jurisdictions.
        Teever 2y ago
        How is this law like that?
- aredox 2y ago
  The maritime industry, more than "the West", is a prime culprit there. Let's also mention how they skirt taxation, the use of flags of convenience, the lack of protection for crews, the matrioshka shell companies...
  - fifilura 2y ago
    Also the clothes industry! The clothes brands claim to recycle cotton, but use 3rd party "recycling companies" to ship the textiles to Africa, where they just burn it in huge waste heaps. With huge environmental issues. https://www.greenpeace.org/africa/en/blog/54589/how-fast-fashion-is-fuelling-the-fashion-waste-crisis-in-africa/ https://www.greenpeace.org/africa/en/blog/54589/how-fast-fas... Computer "recycling" in Lagos/Nigeria is another topic.
    - fifilura 2y ago
      A follow up Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet added a airtags in clothes "recycled" by H&M. Guess where they ended up? https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/jlME1e/aftonbladet-investigation-into-h-m-s-recycling-airtags-in-items https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/jlME1e/aftonbladet-inve...
      - 542458 2y ago
        I’m a bit confused as to how this investigation worked - how can they tell if clothes were ground for fiber with just airtags?
        fifilura 2y ago
        FWIW This is one of the sources, in Swedish though. https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/0QxkyA/modets-morker-5-av-10-h-m-plagg-hamnar-i-afrika https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/0QxkyA/modets-morker-5-... At the end there they list the fate of 10 different garments they returned to H&M. You can evaluate yourself if you find this environmentally friendly or not.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  "The West". LOL. What makes you think rich countries in the Middle East or East/South East Asia are any different? They are not.
aredox 2y ago
The trajectory of the last French air carriers - the Foch and the Clémenceau - is a good illustration of the mess it can be, even for former military flagships. Those military ships are of course full of asbestos - more than usual - and heavy metals. The Clémenceau was supposed to be dismantled in Spain, but when the marine nationale saw it being towed to Turkey, they cancelled the contract and got it back. Then another consortium offered to dismantle it in Alang but with special precautions. The boat left, was blocked by NGOs, was blocked by Egypt when it tried to cross Suez, then India refused to accept it. It came back to France after rounding all of Africa. It was eventually dismantled in the UK, after a few more protests (the river Tess had to be deepened, and the hull had to be cleaned up of any invasive organism) https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9mant%C3%A8lement_du_porte-avions_Clemenceau https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9mant%C3%A8lement_du_p... The Foch was sold to Brazil, and after much of the same drama, was eventually sunk in the Atlantic.
- yohannparis 2y ago
  Merci for sharing this tragic part of French history. I wished budgets on such project included the dismantling of it at the end.
- spicybbq 2y ago
  Alang is an interesting place to look at in Google maps. Make sure to check the street views. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Alang,+Gujarat,+India/@21.403147,72.1853129,6967m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x3be1ef1754ecc115:0x4e05dda2308e9b78!8m2!3d21.3964!4d72.1781317!16zL20vMDMycmYx?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/place/Alang,+Gujarat,+India/@21....
  - teruakohatu 2y ago
    Very interesting. I spotted quite a lot of totally enclosed lifeboats along the main street, including what looked like a business selling enclosed lifeboats. I didn't imagine there was a used market for enclosed lifeboats but a google lead me to Alibaba and they go for hundreds to 10s or 1000s of dollars.
- guidoism 2y ago

throw383y8 2y ago

Well, West should stop dumping their garbage to the rest of the world. It is easy to have strict environmental regulations, if they are not enforced, and negative externalities are exported.

mschuster91 2y ago
> Well, West should stop dumping their garbage to the rest of the world. Actually the export of ships to be wrecked in Asia already is banned under EU law and international treaties - and sometimes, even company owners can and do land in jail for violating them, as it happened to Georg Eide [1]. The difficulty lies in the fact that many ships aren't registered in the EU countries, but in small countries like Antigua who don't have any incentive to help out European countries enforce their laws, and by many ships being legally hidden between layers of shell companies. It can go as far as there being a dedicated LLC in yet another tax haven per ship, and once the ship is to be wrecked, it isn't the ship itself that's being sold for wrecking (because that would be openly illegal and easy to catch and prove for authorities), but the LLC is being sold, and the lax attitude towards audit and public records requirements in the tax havens makes it very difficult to prove illegal intent. [1] https://www.freitag.de/autoren/julia-lauter/reedereien-lassen-alte-frachter-im-globalen-sueden-abwracken https://www.freitag.de/autoren/julia-lauter/reedereien-lasse...
- jopsen 2y ago
  We could require that ships they dock in EU harbours are owned by countries that are party to some international anti-ship breaking agreement. But it's a lot of paperwork :)
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    Still would not prevent just selling the LLC at the end of the ship's useful life. And I'm not sure how to effectively police that.
    - Teever 2y ago
      Find the names of the people involved, get a warrant and use the full power of that impressive global surveillance system that we've created to fight the global war on terror to surveil them and find evidence of other crimes that they've surely committed and prosecute the fuck out of them for that.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Seems like a lot of work to prevent India from breaking ships it wants to break.
        Teever 2y ago
        Meaningless statement. You can say the exact same thing about any law.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Not every law tries to regulate the behavior of people in other jurisdictions.
        Teever 2y ago
        How is this law like that?
aredox 2y ago
The maritime industry, more than "the West", is a prime culprit there. Let's also mention how they skirt taxation, the use of flags of convenience, the lack of protection for crews, the matrioshka shell companies...
- fifilura 2y ago
  Also the clothes industry! The clothes brands claim to recycle cotton, but use 3rd party "recycling companies" to ship the textiles to Africa, where they just burn it in huge waste heaps. With huge environmental issues. https://www.greenpeace.org/africa/en/blog/54589/how-fast-fashion-is-fuelling-the-fashion-waste-crisis-in-africa/ https://www.greenpeace.org/africa/en/blog/54589/how-fast-fas... Computer "recycling" in Lagos/Nigeria is another topic.
  - fifilura 2y ago
    A follow up Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet added a airtags in clothes "recycled" by H&M. Guess where they ended up? https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/jlME1e/aftonbladet-investigation-into-h-m-s-recycling-airtags-in-items https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/jlME1e/aftonbladet-inve...
    - 542458 2y ago
      I’m a bit confused as to how this investigation worked - how can they tell if clothes were ground for fiber with just airtags?
      - fifilura 2y ago
        FWIW This is one of the sources, in Swedish though. https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/0QxkyA/modets-morker-5-av-10-h-m-plagg-hamnar-i-afrika https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/0QxkyA/modets-morker-5-... At the end there they list the fate of 10 different garments they returned to H&M. You can evaluate yourself if you find this environmentally friendly or not.
throwaway2037 2y ago
"The West". LOL. What makes you think rich countries in the Middle East or East/South East Asia are any different? They are not.

aredox 2y ago

The trajectory of the last French air carriers - the Foch and the Clémenceau - is a good illustration of the mess it can be, even for former military flagships. Those military ships are of course full of asbestos - more than usual - and heavy metals. The Clémenceau was supposed to be dismantled in Spain, but when the marine nationale saw it being towed to Turkey, they cancelled the contract and got it back. Then another consortium offered to dismantle it in Alang but with special precautions. The boat left, was blocked by NGOs, was blocked by Egypt when it tried to cross Suez, then India refused to accept it. It came back to France after rounding all of Africa. It was eventually dismantled in the UK, after a few more protests (the river Tess had to be deepened, and the hull had to be cleaned up of any invasive organism) https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9mant%C3%A8lement_du_porte-avions_Clemenceau https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9mant%C3%A8lement_du_p... The Foch was sold to Brazil, and after much of the same drama, was eventually sunk in the Atlantic.

yohannparis 2y ago
Merci for sharing this tragic part of French history. I wished budgets on such project included the dismantling of it at the end.
spicybbq 2y ago
Alang is an interesting place to look at in Google maps. Make sure to check the street views. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Alang,+Gujarat,+India/@21.403147,72.1853129,6967m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x3be1ef1754ecc115:0x4e05dda2308e9b78!8m2!3d21.3964!4d72.1781317!16zL20vMDMycmYx?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/place/Alang,+Gujarat,+India/@21....
- teruakohatu 2y ago
  Very interesting. I spotted quite a lot of totally enclosed lifeboats along the main street, including what looked like a business selling enclosed lifeboats. I didn't imagine there was a used market for enclosed lifeboats but a google lead me to Alibaba and they go for hundreds to 10s or 1000s of dollars.
guidoism 2y ago