3 ms·

Not the UK, but I'm a Californian who lived in Ireland for ten years. The risk aversion is _intense_. Me: "I want to build a house" My Irish friends: "That's

Not the UK, but I'm a Californian who lived in Ireland for ten years. The risk aversion is _intense_. Me: "I want to build a house" My Irish friends: "That's a bad idea, you will fail, it could fall down, you don't know anything about houses". They were extra horrified that I didn't want to build it out of concrete blocks because "you can't build a house out of wood" My Californian friends (but one in particular): "Fuck yeah I'll bring a nailgun" And this applies to EVERYTHING. If you have any ambition it's "notions". People scold their children for being "bold" (admittedly the word is used differently, but still). If someone makes one euro more than you they're a horrible capitalist bastard. I point out that workers in my field are paid three times as much in the US (or more) and somehow am a class traitor.... for saying we should pay labour better. Anyway, Europe has a bright future as a cheap third world backoffice for US companies at this rate. The fact that people here are paid closer to zero than what they'd make in the US is just sad, and they deserve better. The health care isn't even that good (though Ireland is especially bad at this). Maybe that's just Ireland though. I'm in the Netherlands and it seems a bit better, maybe because the only people I talk to are other immigrants. (I built the house, with contractors as well of course. It's a beautiful, warm, well-insulated, wood frame house with ridiculous new world features like high ceilings, aircon, and deciduous trees to the south)

blowski 2y ago
A few personal anecdotes aren't very convincing arguments about the future direction of the world economy.
tafox 2y ago
I also live in Europe (Germany & Austria) and what you're saying is 100% true. I like Europe, but I really miss the positive everything is worth a shot attitude in America. Everything here is no, no, no, why would you do that? It's so demotivating, and G-d forbid you make a tiny mistake! Long term I also don't see how this place won't just keep getting poorer... unless there is a major attitude adjustment in the near future. Also, everyone just tries to dunk on everyone with petty status games like owning a fancy car... as if that's the ultimate achievement in life... really lame & depressing. It's the main reason I would like go back home tbh. There are a lot of problems in America and a lot of things are okay here, so it's hard to say where it's really worse, but I just don't understand why they always need to have these negative attitudes all the time... it costs nothing to have a positive attitude...? Maybe I'm just too stupid to understand.
- technics256 2y ago
  I live in Munich, totally agree.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  There's a lot of things I love about living where I do, but if I could get Dutch urban design in California I'd look very closely at moving back. I also worry about the strength of US democracy, but Europe isn't immune to backsliding here either.
- weiliddat 2y ago
  I'm an "expat" living in Germany and am also thinking of moving to US/CA for the sake of living in a different environment that is more can-do, even if I don't end up starting my own thing. I keep trying to convince myself that day-to-day life in Germany is great, e.g. low cost of living, low crime, etc. but I'm wondering if I'm just comparing to the worst parts of what I hear about the USA on the internet. It's a large place anyways. i.e. what if I moved to a reasonably priced city with a similar crime rate, get a reasonable amount of insurance. Has anyone done that?
arpinum 2y ago
Same experience in England. There is little celebration of business success and more likely accusations of exploitation. The class system is also alive and well in business - the ambition of many well off uni students is to manage others. Grinding on a startup doesn't fulfil that class ambition
- gambiting 2y ago
  Exactly - if you are doing well as a business, then it must be because you screwed someone over, and in general you're a bastard for making people work for you and make you money, like how dare you.
- switch007 2y ago
  Let's not pretend there is not actual exploitation and "exploitation". The question is rather perhaps whether it's reasonable and justified given the huge amount of laws and regulations. A typical small business owner will prey on the naivety of younger employees particularly around HR law. No business owner will be 100% truthful with their customers (ie they engage in some form of marketing). I have not worked a single job where this was not the case. It's celebrated here and called "growth hacking" All of that is done for the gain of the owner, not solely so that they may enrich the lives of their employees
ilikerashers 2y ago
While Ireland has some cash these days, it was a poor place until joining the EU. If you wanted to do well, you emigrated. This is still the case pretty much.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  Certainly, though I wonder if part of the mindset I encountered was a result of any surplus wealth being taken by the landowners for a good 800 years or so. If you don't get to enjoy the fruits of your labour, why try?
  - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
    100%. Ireland is a post-colonial society in many respects. My generation are the first generation to be able to get a job in Ireland (and even then most of us can't afford a house). It takes time for culture like that to be worked through. See also, Irish people's opinions of our most successful export, Bono. (he's a dick btw, because of the tax dodging though, not because of his success).
DrBazza 2y ago
Having just returned from the US, I was struck by this 'risk aversion' and the innate US 'competition'. To give an example: there was a Subway on one of the streets in the US. A few doors down there was an independent sandwich shop that was offering similar, larger sandwiches, with more toppings, for less, with a huge advertisement saying so. In the UK, close to where I live, there's a Subway on the High St., and an independent cafe down the street. The cafe continues to serve two-slices of bread with an average amount of filling for slightly less than Subway, and has no interest in competing, despite Subway getting double, or more, the foot traffic. That's the UK all over. > Anyway, Europe has a bright future as a cheap third world backoffice for US companies at this rate. Already happening: https://archive.is/4Rer5 https://archive.is/4Rer5 A lost decade+more due to austerity after 2008's financial crisis, plus huge amounts of furlough money, and a falling exchange rate doesn't make good reading.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  Ah, I'd almost forgotten the styrofoam and mayonnaise sandwiches!

blowski 2y ago

A few personal anecdotes aren't very convincing arguments about the future direction of the world economy.

tafox 2y ago

I also live in Europe (Germany & Austria) and what you're saying is 100% true. I like Europe, but I really miss the positive everything is worth a shot attitude in America. Everything here is no, no, no, why would you do that? It's so demotivating, and G-d forbid you make a tiny mistake! Long term I also don't see how this place won't just keep getting poorer... unless there is a major attitude adjustment in the near future. Also, everyone just tries to dunk on everyone with petty status games like owning a fancy car... as if that's the ultimate achievement in life... really lame & depressing. It's the main reason I would like go back home tbh. There are a lot of problems in America and a lot of things are okay here, so it's hard to say where it's really worse, but I just don't understand why they always need to have these negative attitudes all the time... it costs nothing to have a positive attitude...? Maybe I'm just too stupid to understand.

technics256 2y ago
I live in Munich, totally agree.
CalRobert 2y ago
There's a lot of things I love about living where I do, but if I could get Dutch urban design in California I'd look very closely at moving back. I also worry about the strength of US democracy, but Europe isn't immune to backsliding here either.
weiliddat 2y ago
I'm an "expat" living in Germany and am also thinking of moving to US/CA for the sake of living in a different environment that is more can-do, even if I don't end up starting my own thing. I keep trying to convince myself that day-to-day life in Germany is great, e.g. low cost of living, low crime, etc. but I'm wondering if I'm just comparing to the worst parts of what I hear about the USA on the internet. It's a large place anyways. i.e. what if I moved to a reasonably priced city with a similar crime rate, get a reasonable amount of insurance. Has anyone done that?

arpinum 2y ago

Same experience in England. There is little celebration of business success and more likely accusations of exploitation. The class system is also alive and well in business - the ambition of many well off uni students is to manage others. Grinding on a startup doesn't fulfil that class ambition

gambiting 2y ago
Exactly - if you are doing well as a business, then it must be because you screwed someone over, and in general you're a bastard for making people work for you and make you money, like how dare you.
switch007 2y ago
Let's not pretend there is not actual exploitation and "exploitation". The question is rather perhaps whether it's reasonable and justified given the huge amount of laws and regulations. A typical small business owner will prey on the naivety of younger employees particularly around HR law. No business owner will be 100% truthful with their customers (ie they engage in some form of marketing). I have not worked a single job where this was not the case. It's celebrated here and called "growth hacking" All of that is done for the gain of the owner, not solely so that they may enrich the lives of their employees

ilikerashers 2y ago

While Ireland has some cash these days, it was a poor place until joining the EU. If you wanted to do well, you emigrated. This is still the case pretty much.

CalRobert 2y ago
Certainly, though I wonder if part of the mindset I encountered was a result of any surplus wealth being taken by the landowners for a good 800 years or so. If you don't get to enjoy the fruits of your labour, why try?
- disgruntledphd2 2y ago
  100%. Ireland is a post-colonial society in many respects. My generation are the first generation to be able to get a job in Ireland (and even then most of us can't afford a house). It takes time for culture like that to be worked through. See also, Irish people's opinions of our most successful export, Bono. (he's a dick btw, because of the tax dodging though, not because of his success).

DrBazza 2y ago

Having just returned from the US, I was struck by this 'risk aversion' and the innate US 'competition'. To give an example: there was a Subway on one of the streets in the US. A few doors down there was an independent sandwich shop that was offering similar, larger sandwiches, with more toppings, for less, with a huge advertisement saying so. In the UK, close to where I live, there's a Subway on the High St., and an independent cafe down the street. The cafe continues to serve two-slices of bread with an average amount of filling for slightly less than Subway, and has no interest in competing, despite Subway getting double, or more, the foot traffic. That's the UK all over. > Anyway, Europe has a bright future as a cheap third world backoffice for US companies at this rate. Already happening: https://archive.is/4Rer5 https://archive.is/4Rer5 A lost decade+more due to austerity after 2008's financial crisis, plus huge amounts of furlough money, and a falling exchange rate doesn't make good reading.

CalRobert 2y ago
Ah, I'd almost forgotten the styrofoam and mayonnaise sandwiches!