5 ms·

Modos Paper Monitor Pre-Launch on Crowd Supply

152 points by dotcoma 2y ago

promiseofbeans 2y ago
How have they managed to get such smooth video/scrolling on an e-ink screen? All the other things I've seen have this jarring black flash every refresh.
- aidenn0 2y ago
  The flash kind of "resets" each pixel. You can update without the flash (and some e-readers support this) but artifacts slowly accumulate. In the video they show a mode where it is B&W while scrolling, but after stopping the scroll it flashes and renders in gray-scale. The narrator mentions several possible modes; noting that 16-shade gray-scale is too slow for any interactive use (including typing), but 4-shade can allow typing and B&W can allow fast scrolling &c.
- toast0 2y ago
  They discuss a lot of this in their linked readme: https://github.com/Modos-Labs/Glider?tab=readme-ov-file#low-latency-drive https://github.com/Modos-Labs/Glider?tab=readme-ov-file#low-...
JonChesterfield 2y ago
Sounds great. Emacs in the sun, hope it comes to pass. Nice to see the fpga playground too.
- schaefer 2y ago
  I thought if you tried to use emacs in the sunlight, it bursts into flame? (with love, vi user)
  - adr1an 2y ago
    Only if you enable the evil mode :P
lsb 2y ago
Looks similar to the Dasung monitor latency. Would be interested to see a comparison, both for features and performance and price
promiseofbeans 2y ago
For those interested, their readme file has a really great explanation of how e-ink displays work, the ideas behind them, and how they compare to LCDs at various tasks: https://github.com/Modos-Labs/Glider https://github.com/Modos-Labs/Glider
- dang 2y ago
  Discussed recently: Glider – open-source eInk monitor with an emphasis on low latency - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40358309 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40358309 - May 2024 (146 comments) Also related: Modos Paper Monitor (2022) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37740483 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37740483 - Oct 2023 (73 comments) The Modos Paper Monitor - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31899012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31899012 - June 2022 (1 comment) The Modos Paper Monitor - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31858659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31858659 - June 2022 (82 comments) The Modos Paper Monitor - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31837548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31837548 - June 2022 (1 comment) Would You Buy the First Laptop with an E-Paper Screen? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31750028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31750028 - June 2022 (15 comments) The Modos Paper Laptop - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31394226 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31394226 - May 2022 (224 comments) Modos: The World’s First E-ink Laptop - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29929446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29929446 - Jan 2022 (13 comments)
chias 2y ago
I know the Crowd Supply part isn't live yet but I wish this had some kind of ballpark cost, at least to an order of magnitude. Are we talking $300 or $3000?
- 1d22a 2y ago
  To give an indication, similar e-ink panels (the likely most expensive single component) to what they seem to be using can be found on AliExpress for a bit below 200usd.
- GrantMoyer 2y ago
  Given that a 13in e-ink display is 450$ by itself[1], and the FPGA costs about 75$[2], I'd guess north of 600$. I've no thoughts on an upper bound though. [1]: https://shopkits.eink.com/en/product/detail/13.3''ePaperDisplay(VB3300-NCB) https://shopkits.eink.com/en/product/detail/13.3''ePaperDisp... [2]: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AMD-Xilinx/XC6SLX16-3CSG324I https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AMD-Xilinx/XC6SLX16-3CS...
- devsda 2y ago
  For the complete monitor, a 13.3 e-ink screen alone has a retail cost of around 350-400 USD depending on where you look. There's also the FPGA and other components. We have commercial displays of similar size available around 800 usd. So, adding up the manufacturing, development and other overheads my guess is it could be around 1000 USD. The dev kit should cost less if we can source the monitor & enclosure ourselves. I didn't go through the complete list of supported hardware but if we can get the dev kit work with old kindle or kobo 6" displays it should be an interesting diy to work on.
- alex-a-soto 2y ago
  When our campaign goes live, we'll share a variety of pricing tiers to suit different budgets.
ggm 2y ago
I'd love to have one, I have glare issues at work and home where this would hopefully help, being unwilling to simply black out the window. I like having both a sky, and somewhat changing digital artifacts in my field of view. A minor concern is that there are so few supply chains for the underlying technology. This is a bit like "that screen really came from Samsung like all the others" or the more real world of where disk platters come from (Thailand, for almost everyone, at one point if not continuously)
- cinbun8 2y ago
  From looking at the demo, you might still have glare issues. You want this display if you'd like one that goes easy on your eyes.
- imp0cat 2y ago
  I have my screen placed on a table that sits right next to a window and use motorized blinds that have slats which can be tilted for adjustable light control. These let me have both a great view and some protection from the direct sunlight.
_giorgio_ 2y ago
I've stopped having eye strain issues since I've started using night mode 24/7. Before that, sometimes I worked using my kindle as a screen connected to the computer. Which was a nice distraction free environment.
- jonah 2y ago
  Give Flux a try. https://justgetflux.com/ https://justgetflux.com/ It did it before night mode and does it far better. ;)
  - _giorgio_ 2y ago
    Installed, thanks.
- barelyusable 2y ago
  How did you connect Kindle to your computer ?
  - _giorgio_ 2y ago
    It depends on the kindle. I had an old jailbroken kindle. Maybe that more modern ones work without jailbreaking. https://www.reddit.com/r/kindle/comments/17uf45p/kindle_as_computer_second_screen_it_works/ https://www.reddit.com/r/kindle/comments/17uf45p/kindle_as_c...
geraldwhen 2y ago
IDEA needs to create a theme or mode built for e ink displays. That would be something.
robxorb 2y ago
If you only want a demo with explanation of its features: https://youtube.com/watch?time_continue=97&v=pXn-bAwzNv4 https://youtube.com/watch?time_continue=97&v=pXn-bAwzNv4 (Links to 1m 37s in the video on the submission page.)
Weryj 2y ago
Absolute massive fan of E-Ink and quite disappointed it's been on the back burner for so many years. I imagine it being one of the perfect devices for a software developer.
throwaway81523 2y ago
13.3" but the github page lists some alternative, larger displays. Supports some interesting interfaces. Seems to need USB PD power so it sounds power hungry. Regular 5 volt USB would be nice, for this to be a good companion display to a Raspberry Pi or the like. Otoh it sounds like the complete monitor will cost around $1K based on comments below. I'm still mostly interested in an Inkplate 10 though 13.3" is a better size for an e-reader. For a desktop monitor I really want 20" or larger. For E-ink that would be super expensive.
- tecleandor 2y ago
  I guess it's not exactly that it needs USB PD, but that it's pretty convenient. Also, it seems like large panels could be relatively power hungry, at least on peaks, to be powered by a classic 5V USB brick, when the standard is limited from 55mA to 1.5A (rarely) [0]. The CrowdSupply page says it includes an "E-paper power supply with up to 1 A peak current on +/-15 V rail supporting large panels sizes". 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Allowable_current_draw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Allowable_current...
- zephray 2y ago
  Author here. It does not need USB PD for power, it uses regular 5V USB and consumes less than 1A (usually less than 0.5A). The reason it supports USB PD is for the DisplayPort Alt Mode to allow power + video on a single cable. DisplayPort Alt Mode is part of the USB PD, to do DP over USB it has to support USB PD and communicate to the host through the PD that it's a monitor. Inkplate is a different class of device (has it's own processor, targeting lower frame rate, etc.) and we are not trying to compete with them.
robxorb 2y ago
I wonder if this could be adapted into a form-factor that fits in a Framework laptop, to replace its LCD display. Perhaps some of the supporting circuitry could be housed in a USB bay for example?
- schaefer 2y ago
  Have you seen this video [1] - which appears to show just that. A Modos prototype in a framework 13 shell. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=480xteW2wq4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=480xteW2wq4
  - robxorb 2y ago
    Wow, I hadn't, thanks!
jmclnx 2y ago
I saw this as "Msdos paper Monitor". Not what I was expecting :)
- alex-a-soto 2y ago
  You know that's not a bad idea... We could use FreeDOS :)
vanderZwan 2y ago
Curious to see whether more recent dithering approaches would produce better results. They don't even have to be more resource hungry than the classic Bayer or Floyd-Steinberg dithers! Interleaved Gradient Noise[0][1][2] comes to mind as an alternative to Bayer, and it can even be approximated quite well with just 8-bit operations! Basically, use the following function to determine your threshold based on pixel position: (x, y) => (142 * x + 79 * y) & 255 And for error diffusion, there are the Ostromoukhov and Zhou-Fang dithering algorithms[3][4], which I also have an JavaScript implementation of on Observable, so you can try it live[5]. [0] http://www.iryoku.com/next-generation-post-processing-in-call-of-duty-advanced-warfare http://www.iryoku.com/next-generation-post-processing-in-cal... [1] https://bartwronski.com/2016/10/30/dithering-part-three-real-world-2d-quantization-dithering/ https://bartwronski.com/2016/10/30/dithering-part-three-real... [2] https://blog.demofox.org/2022/01/01/interleaved-gradient-noise-a-different-kind-of-low-discrepancy-sequence/ https://blog.demofox.org/2022/01/01/interleaved-gradient-noi... [3] https://perso.liris.cnrs.fr/victor.ostromoukhov/publications/publications_abstracts.html#SIGGRAPH01_VarcoeffED https://perso.liris.cnrs.fr/victor.ostromoukhov/publications... [4] https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/1201775.882289 https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/1201775.882289 [5] https://observablehq.com/@jobleonard/variable-coefficient-dithering https://observablehq.com/@jobleonard/variable-coefficient-di...
- alex-a-soto 2y ago
  Thank you for the recommendations! We'll look into them.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
maxglute 2y ago
I remember reading some of the eink patents expired recently? Are there news of cheaper/larger panels on the horizon?
- braunboffel 2y ago
  Patents were never the issue, there was one crazy comment on HN a few years back claiming that it was and somehow it became a mindworm that kept getting repeated. You can prove this to yourself by asking anyone that repeats the claim of patents being the issue, what patent specifically they mean. Invariably they can't answer or say "all of them". The real issue is volume and scale of production and the physics of the technology not being suitable for a broad enough range of solutions to hit the volume needed to get to a higher scale.

152 points by dotcoma 2y ago

How have they managed to get such smooth video/scrolling on an e-ink screen? All the other things I've seen have this jarring black flash every refresh.

aidenn0 2y ago
The flash kind of "resets" each pixel. You can update without the flash (and some e-readers support this) but artifacts slowly accumulate. In the video they show a mode where it is B&W while scrolling, but after stopping the scroll it flashes and renders in gray-scale. The narrator mentions several possible modes; noting that 16-shade gray-scale is too slow for any interactive use (including typing), but 4-shade can allow typing and B&W can allow fast scrolling &c.
toast0 2y ago
They discuss a lot of this in their linked readme: https://github.com/Modos-Labs/Glider?tab=readme-ov-file#low-latency-drive https://github.com/Modos-Labs/Glider?tab=readme-ov-file#low-...

JonChesterfield 2y ago

Sounds great. Emacs in the sun, hope it comes to pass. Nice to see the fpga playground too.

schaefer 2y ago
I thought if you tried to use emacs in the sunlight, it bursts into flame? (with love, vi user)
- adr1an 2y ago
  Only if you enable the evil mode :P

lsb 2y ago

Looks similar to the Dasung monitor latency. Would be interested to see a comparison, both for features and performance and price

promiseofbeans 2y ago

For those interested, their readme file has a really great explanation of how e-ink displays work, the ideas behind them, and how they compare to LCDs at various tasks: https://github.com/Modos-Labs/Glider https://github.com/Modos-Labs/Glider

dang 2y ago
Discussed recently: Glider – open-source eInk monitor with an emphasis on low latency - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40358309 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40358309 - May 2024 (146 comments) Also related: Modos Paper Monitor (2022) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37740483 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37740483 - Oct 2023 (73 comments) The Modos Paper Monitor - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31899012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31899012 - June 2022 (1 comment) The Modos Paper Monitor - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31858659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31858659 - June 2022 (82 comments) The Modos Paper Monitor - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31837548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31837548 - June 2022 (1 comment) Would You Buy the First Laptop with an E-Paper Screen? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31750028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31750028 - June 2022 (15 comments) The Modos Paper Laptop - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31394226 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31394226 - May 2022 (224 comments) Modos: The World’s First E-ink Laptop - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29929446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29929446 - Jan 2022 (13 comments)

chias 2y ago

I know the Crowd Supply part isn't live yet but I wish this had some kind of ballpark cost, at least to an order of magnitude. Are we talking $300 or $3000?

1d22a 2y ago
To give an indication, similar e-ink panels (the likely most expensive single component) to what they seem to be using can be found on AliExpress for a bit below 200usd.
GrantMoyer 2y ago
Given that a 13in e-ink display is 450$ by itself[1], and the FPGA costs about 75$[2], I'd guess north of 600$. I've no thoughts on an upper bound though. [1]: https://shopkits.eink.com/en/product/detail/13.3''ePaperDisplay(VB3300-NCB) https://shopkits.eink.com/en/product/detail/13.3''ePaperDisp... [2]: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AMD-Xilinx/XC6SLX16-3CSG324I https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AMD-Xilinx/XC6SLX16-3CS...
devsda 2y ago
For the complete monitor, a 13.3 e-ink screen alone has a retail cost of around 350-400 USD depending on where you look. There's also the FPGA and other components. We have commercial displays of similar size available around 800 usd. So, adding up the manufacturing, development and other overheads my guess is it could be around 1000 USD. The dev kit should cost less if we can source the monitor & enclosure ourselves. I didn't go through the complete list of supported hardware but if we can get the dev kit work with old kindle or kobo 6" displays it should be an interesting diy to work on.
alex-a-soto 2y ago
When our campaign goes live, we'll share a variety of pricing tiers to suit different budgets.

ggm 2y ago

I'd love to have one, I have glare issues at work and home where this would hopefully help, being unwilling to simply black out the window. I like having both a sky, and somewhat changing digital artifacts in my field of view. A minor concern is that there are so few supply chains for the underlying technology. This is a bit like "that screen really came from Samsung like all the others" or the more real world of where disk platters come from (Thailand, for almost everyone, at one point if not continuously)

cinbun8 2y ago
From looking at the demo, you might still have glare issues. You want this display if you'd like one that goes easy on your eyes.
imp0cat 2y ago
I have my screen placed on a table that sits right next to a window and use motorized blinds that have slats which can be tilted for adjustable light control. These let me have both a great view and some protection from the direct sunlight.

_giorgio_ 2y ago

I've stopped having eye strain issues since I've started using night mode 24/7. Before that, sometimes I worked using my kindle as a screen connected to the computer. Which was a nice distraction free environment.

jonah 2y ago
Give Flux a try. https://justgetflux.com/ https://justgetflux.com/ It did it before night mode and does it far better. ;)
- _giorgio_ 2y ago
  Installed, thanks.
barelyusable 2y ago
How did you connect Kindle to your computer ?
- _giorgio_ 2y ago
  It depends on the kindle. I had an old jailbroken kindle. Maybe that more modern ones work without jailbreaking. https://www.reddit.com/r/kindle/comments/17uf45p/kindle_as_computer_second_screen_it_works/ https://www.reddit.com/r/kindle/comments/17uf45p/kindle_as_c...

geraldwhen 2y ago

IDEA needs to create a theme or mode built for e ink displays. That would be something.

robxorb 2y ago

If you only want a demo with explanation of its features: https://youtube.com/watch?time_continue=97&v=pXn-bAwzNv4 https://youtube.com/watch?time_continue=97&v=pXn-bAwzNv4 (Links to 1m 37s in the video on the submission page.)

Weryj 2y ago

Absolute massive fan of E-Ink and quite disappointed it's been on the back burner for so many years. I imagine it being one of the perfect devices for a software developer.

throwaway81523 2y ago

13.3" but the github page lists some alternative, larger displays. Supports some interesting interfaces. Seems to need USB PD power so it sounds power hungry. Regular 5 volt USB would be nice, for this to be a good companion display to a Raspberry Pi or the like. Otoh it sounds like the complete monitor will cost around $1K based on comments below. I'm still mostly interested in an Inkplate 10 though 13.3" is a better size for an e-reader. For a desktop monitor I really want 20" or larger. For E-ink that would be super expensive.

tecleandor 2y ago
I guess it's not exactly that it needs USB PD, but that it's pretty convenient. Also, it seems like large panels could be relatively power hungry, at least on peaks, to be powered by a classic 5V USB brick, when the standard is limited from 55mA to 1.5A (rarely) [0]. The CrowdSupply page says it includes an "E-paper power supply with up to 1 A peak current on +/-15 V rail supporting large panels sizes". 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Allowable_current_draw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Allowable_current...
zephray 2y ago
Author here. It does not need USB PD for power, it uses regular 5V USB and consumes less than 1A (usually less than 0.5A). The reason it supports USB PD is for the DisplayPort Alt Mode to allow power + video on a single cable. DisplayPort Alt Mode is part of the USB PD, to do DP over USB it has to support USB PD and communicate to the host through the PD that it's a monitor. Inkplate is a different class of device (has it's own processor, targeting lower frame rate, etc.) and we are not trying to compete with them.

robxorb 2y ago

I wonder if this could be adapted into a form-factor that fits in a Framework laptop, to replace its LCD display. Perhaps some of the supporting circuitry could be housed in a USB bay for example?

schaefer 2y ago
Have you seen this video [1] - which appears to show just that. A Modos prototype in a framework 13 shell. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=480xteW2wq4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=480xteW2wq4
- robxorb 2y ago
  Wow, I hadn't, thanks!

jmclnx 2y ago

I saw this as "Msdos paper Monitor". Not what I was expecting :)

alex-a-soto 2y ago
You know that's not a bad idea... We could use FreeDOS :)

vanderZwan 2y ago

Curious to see whether more recent dithering approaches would produce better results. They don't even have to be more resource hungry than the classic Bayer or Floyd-Steinberg dithers! Interleaved Gradient Noise[0][1][2] comes to mind as an alternative to Bayer, and it can even be approximated quite well with just 8-bit operations! Basically, use the following function to determine your threshold based on pixel position: (x, y) => (142 * x + 79 * y) & 255 And for error diffusion, there are the Ostromoukhov and Zhou-Fang dithering algorithms[3][4], which I also have an JavaScript implementation of on Observable, so you can try it live[5]. [0] http://www.iryoku.com/next-generation-post-processing-in-call-of-duty-advanced-warfare http://www.iryoku.com/next-generation-post-processing-in-cal... [1] https://bartwronski.com/2016/10/30/dithering-part-three-real-world-2d-quantization-dithering/ https://bartwronski.com/2016/10/30/dithering-part-three-real... [2] https://blog.demofox.org/2022/01/01/interleaved-gradient-noise-a-different-kind-of-low-discrepancy-sequence/ https://blog.demofox.org/2022/01/01/interleaved-gradient-noi... [3] https://perso.liris.cnrs.fr/victor.ostromoukhov/publications/publications_abstracts.html#SIGGRAPH01_VarcoeffED https://perso.liris.cnrs.fr/victor.ostromoukhov/publications... [4] https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/1201775.882289 https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/1201775.882289 [5] https://observablehq.com/@jobleonard/variable-coefficient-dithering https://observablehq.com/@jobleonard/variable-coefficient-di...

alex-a-soto 2y ago
Thank you for the recommendations! We'll look into them.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

maxglute 2y ago

I remember reading some of the eink patents expired recently? Are there news of cheaper/larger panels on the horizon?

braunboffel 2y ago
Patents were never the issue, there was one crazy comment on HN a few years back claiming that it was and somehow it became a mindworm that kept getting repeated. You can prove this to yourself by asking anyone that repeats the claim of patents being the issue, what patent specifically they mean. Invariably they can't answer or say "all of them". The real issue is volume and scale of production and the physics of the technology not being suitable for a broad enough range of solutions to hit the volume needed to get to a higher scale.