5 ms·

The M4 iPad Pros

17 points by cratermoon 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
schmidt_fifty 2y ago
[dead]
Eric_WVGG 2y ago
> the M3 because the M3 lacks a display controller that can drive the tandem OLED Ultra Retina XDR displays For anyone who hasn't heard of these "tandem displays," they seem to be accomplishing greater brightness and outdoor visibility by layers one OLED on top of the other. It sounds bonkers, but there were those demos of "transparent televisions" last year, so it checks out. Should be pretty exciting if/when these make it to the iPhone and Watch. I would have guessed that the displays would simply mirror each others' content, but the requirement of an enhanced display controller indicates that the two displays are controlled independently, and the video system is pushing twice as many pixels as the already absurd number necessary for a "retina display." This is all speculation, of course. But if I'm correct, an M4 Air that lacks the tandem displays ought to be able to drive more external displays than the M3 model.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dangus 2y ago
Apple’s #1 fanboy is spending too many words attempting to justify the shortcomings of the iPad software. It’s like in Gruberworld you aren’t allowed to have any severe criticism of Apple, you have to find a way to explain it away. I wish he would be more blunt about the iPad: if you have a specific workflow like drawing, animating, or something else my imagination can’t think of right now, great, it’s a good system for you. But for everyone else that is just looking for a web browser thing for their kitchen or their kids, anything more expensive than the $329 iPad or $500 iPad Air if you must have a laminated screen is overkill. Even better to just buy a previous model because the differences are basically impossible to spot by any normal human who isn’t hunting for specs. The iPad Pro as a Pro device is still an oxymoron unless you are a very specific person. The declining iPad sales figures that peaked 10 years ago tell the story best: that it’s still compromised device that isn’t as flexible as a full computer, and that its appeal is not growing as time goes on and the software improves at a glacier’s pace. All the drawing and touch apps that are on iPadOS would be instantly better if macOS had devices with touch screens. No more fumbling with the Files app. If Apple made a ZenBook Duo-like Mac it would be a much better buy than an iPad Pro. “Editing on iPad is Hell” by Mac Address: https://youtu.be/gosW702fFg4 https://youtu.be/gosW702fFg4
- drcongo 2y ago
  You didn't read it did you.
  - dangus 2y ago
    Yes I did. Gruber basically made the same arguments I did about the flaws of the iPad product lineup, but then says: What if I’m wrong and I need to gaslight myself into believing that high end iPad Pros make sense? I’m not supposed to be getting an actually better product for the extra cost, I’m buying a more luxurious item like a Lexus compared to a Toyota. He’s basically arguing that despite his full understanding that the iPad Pro sucks for his workflow that the iPad Pro is worth the money because it’s thinner and has a fancy screen. That’s some apologist bullshit. He’s only focusing on thinness because it’s the only thing on offer with this new update. Because if you are like 99% of people and don’t care about winning a battle of millimeters, you’ll save a bunch of money by sticking with your 2018 iPad Pro model that offers an almost identical experience and performance especially given the limitations of iPadOS. Even the new tandem OLED isn’t that much better than the mini-LED predecessor (Dave2D).
- russelldjimmy 2y ago
  People disagree with one another and have different views on the world? What a shocker.
jitl 2y ago
These seem pretty darn luxury - I would like a “bedroom” computer for stronger work life separation so I’ve considered iPad Pro a few times, and the new keyboard thing, the very cool screen seem like everyday stuff & creative pursuits could be great on it. But there’s no way I’d buy one without there being a serious update to iPadOS at WWDC. I don’t expect to ever see crazy productivity & customization on iPadOS, but there’s just so much about the UX of the operating system that makes it much slower and more confusing to multi-task or do complex workflows compared to traditional desktop OS. Both iPadOS and VisionOS run on super fast hardware, but doing everyday stuff like comparison shopping or planning a vacation feels like trying to swim in a river of molasses. Single app focus tasks like Procreate or watching a movie are awesome - often better - but anything with 2+ windows seems to spend a massive amount of pixels on padding and borders and just feels so frustrating.
- justinclift 2y ago
  Yeah. Every time I've seriously looked at getting an iPad... I just end up getting a Surface Pro instead. The Surface Pro is "good enough" hardware wise, and having a full featured OS means I can run Blender and whatever else I choose.
  - criddell 2y ago
    If you don't need to run applications that run best on an iPad, they really don't make much sense. For me, Proceate and Goodnotes are killer apps that justify the iPad.
    - justinclift 2y ago
      Yeah, that's fair. I just wish they were more open, so other applications (like Blender) could run on the things. :) Wacom would shit bricks. :D
      - criddell 2y ago
        What's stopping somebody from porting Blender or writing something like it for iPadOS and the Pencil? Other open source applications (like VLC for example) have excellent iPad ports. Would Blender need some entitlement that Apple is unlikely to grant?
dwallin 2y ago
I think the failures of iPadOS are really illuminating about the contrasting strengths of closed top-down design vs open stochastic exploration. Apple loves to craft an experience, and this design approach is great at taking large steps to get out of local maxima, and find new rich areas. Because they control the entire process they are theoretically able to make bigger moves and take larger design risk. For example, they could have never made the iPhone without this method of development. However any singular design vision is ALWAYS going to have blindspots that prevent it from reaching a better local optimal state. When it comes to figuring out these blindspots and moving towards a better local maxima, the best approach is having a lot of individuals experimenting widely. For example, if outside developers had more capability to explore different ways of managing files on an iPad, it's likely that someone would stumble upon a really great way of handling it that gains traction, and that Apple could adopt more widely.
- stcredzero 2y ago
  I think there's some connection between your comment: For example, if outside developers had more capability to explore different ways... ...and these 2 sentences from the article: For the sake of this argument, let’s posit that there exist tens of millions — perhaps 100 million — users who love the iPad for what it is. People who feel empowered, not hamstrung, by how it works, and who have no or very little need for a computer that exposes the complexity of a desktop OS like MacOS or Windows. And that there exist tens of millions more people who enjoy having an iPad to complement, not replace, their desktop computer. If someone did come up with an iPad competitor that had all of the ease of use, UX simplicity, and ecosystem benefits, but also better enabled power users with something nearer a desktop replacement, then this would simply kill the iPad. The fact that Apple seems reticent to do this themselves, indicates that there is a kind of organizational blind spot there, driven by self interest. Either that, or there are typical Apple long term plans that we're not fully aware of, and they're taking their own sweet time.
kmeisthax 2y ago
I own an iPad Pro 13", specifically for drawing. It is the best drawing tablet, attached to some of the most buggy and annoying software ever. I get it, you think the iPad should be 'simplified'. That's part of my frustration, but I can work within those limitations. What I find particularly galling is the bugginess of what is supposed to be fully supported. For example, the mouse cursor: occasionally it just snaps to the completely wrong place. Sometimes it'll grab onto the edge of a window, but only when you click. Or it'll just not let you click certain elements at all, like the maximize control on picture-in-picture videos, which you can roll over, but clicking snaps you to the edge of the special PiP window. None of this has to do with iPadOS limitations or whatever. This is purely just bugged, and four years into iPadOS having mouse support I'm still flabbergasted that Apple not only shipped it in such an unpolished state, but that multiple software updates have not brought a fix for it. I should never have to lift my finger off my trackpad to go touch something on the touchscreen just because the mouse support is dogshit. iPadOS isn't exactly built for file management, and a lot of older apps don't support it properly. Those are things I can't exactly ding Apple for (mostly), app developers need to fix their shit. But I can ding them for having file management that loves to crash. SMB support - which is crucial to all the video editing workflows Apple wants to enable on iPad - is basically a crapshoot at the best of times. It's very liable to take down whatever daemon is responsible for managing remote shares. When this happens, all file management on the iPad stops working, with apps hanging when they try to present a file picker. Killing and restarting Files does not fix this, and the only way to restart daemons on iPadOS is to restart the whole tablet. None of this feels like it's simplified, it just feels unfinished.
- FeloniousHam 2y ago
  I agree so hard with all this, but especially the file management. I dread having to share a file between applications (you draw/edit in one app, use the image in another). So many times I just can't find the file I saved/downloaded; it's not in "Recents", not in the iCloud app folder, the search is useless. Sometimes the Share button->Save File doesn't do anything. I still don't want to pick up my laptop after work, I just want real file manager.
asadotzler 2y ago
He's wrong because the alternative is not bigger, heavier and fatter, the alternative is the same form factor with days more of battery life. An iPad Air with one less display panel could fit more battery and with a more efficient, less power oriented APU could use less battery. Combined, Apple could have added meaningful battery longevity that it instead sacrificed for a brighter screen and better performance in rare and extreme workloads.

The M4 iPad Pros

17 points by cratermoon 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

schmidt_fifty 2y ago

[dead]

Eric_WVGG 2y ago

> the M3 because the M3 lacks a display controller that can drive the tandem OLED Ultra Retina XDR displays For anyone who hasn't heard of these "tandem displays," they seem to be accomplishing greater brightness and outdoor visibility by layers one OLED on top of the other. It sounds bonkers, but there were those demos of "transparent televisions" last year, so it checks out. Should be pretty exciting if/when these make it to the iPhone and Watch. I would have guessed that the displays would simply mirror each others' content, but the requirement of an enhanced display controller indicates that the two displays are controlled independently, and the video system is pushing twice as many pixels as the already absurd number necessary for a "retina display." This is all speculation, of course. But if I'm correct, an M4 Air that lacks the tandem displays ought to be able to drive more external displays than the M3 model.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

dangus 2y ago

Apple’s #1 fanboy is spending too many words attempting to justify the shortcomings of the iPad software. It’s like in Gruberworld you aren’t allowed to have any severe criticism of Apple, you have to find a way to explain it away. I wish he would be more blunt about the iPad: if you have a specific workflow like drawing, animating, or something else my imagination can’t think of right now, great, it’s a good system for you. But for everyone else that is just looking for a web browser thing for their kitchen or their kids, anything more expensive than the $329 iPad or $500 iPad Air if you must have a laminated screen is overkill. Even better to just buy a previous model because the differences are basically impossible to spot by any normal human who isn’t hunting for specs. The iPad Pro as a Pro device is still an oxymoron unless you are a very specific person. The declining iPad sales figures that peaked 10 years ago tell the story best: that it’s still compromised device that isn’t as flexible as a full computer, and that its appeal is not growing as time goes on and the software improves at a glacier’s pace. All the drawing and touch apps that are on iPadOS would be instantly better if macOS had devices with touch screens. No more fumbling with the Files app. If Apple made a ZenBook Duo-like Mac it would be a much better buy than an iPad Pro. “Editing on iPad is Hell” by Mac Address: https://youtu.be/gosW702fFg4 https://youtu.be/gosW702fFg4

drcongo 2y ago
You didn't read it did you.
- dangus 2y ago
  Yes I did. Gruber basically made the same arguments I did about the flaws of the iPad product lineup, but then says: What if I’m wrong and I need to gaslight myself into believing that high end iPad Pros make sense? I’m not supposed to be getting an actually better product for the extra cost, I’m buying a more luxurious item like a Lexus compared to a Toyota. He’s basically arguing that despite his full understanding that the iPad Pro sucks for his workflow that the iPad Pro is worth the money because it’s thinner and has a fancy screen. That’s some apologist bullshit. He’s only focusing on thinness because it’s the only thing on offer with this new update. Because if you are like 99% of people and don’t care about winning a battle of millimeters, you’ll save a bunch of money by sticking with your 2018 iPad Pro model that offers an almost identical experience and performance especially given the limitations of iPadOS. Even the new tandem OLED isn’t that much better than the mini-LED predecessor (Dave2D).
russelldjimmy 2y ago
People disagree with one another and have different views on the world? What a shocker.

jitl 2y ago

These seem pretty darn luxury - I would like a “bedroom” computer for stronger work life separation so I’ve considered iPad Pro a few times, and the new keyboard thing, the very cool screen seem like everyday stuff & creative pursuits could be great on it. But there’s no way I’d buy one without there being a serious update to iPadOS at WWDC. I don’t expect to ever see crazy productivity & customization on iPadOS, but there’s just so much about the UX of the operating system that makes it much slower and more confusing to multi-task or do complex workflows compared to traditional desktop OS. Both iPadOS and VisionOS run on super fast hardware, but doing everyday stuff like comparison shopping or planning a vacation feels like trying to swim in a river of molasses. Single app focus tasks like Procreate or watching a movie are awesome - often better - but anything with 2+ windows seems to spend a massive amount of pixels on padding and borders and just feels so frustrating.

justinclift 2y ago
Yeah. Every time I've seriously looked at getting an iPad... I just end up getting a Surface Pro instead. The Surface Pro is "good enough" hardware wise, and having a full featured OS means I can run Blender and whatever else I choose.
- criddell 2y ago
  If you don't need to run applications that run best on an iPad, they really don't make much sense. For me, Proceate and Goodnotes are killer apps that justify the iPad.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    Yeah, that's fair. I just wish they were more open, so other applications (like Blender) could run on the things. :) Wacom would shit bricks. :D
    - criddell 2y ago
      What's stopping somebody from porting Blender or writing something like it for iPadOS and the Pencil? Other open source applications (like VLC for example) have excellent iPad ports. Would Blender need some entitlement that Apple is unlikely to grant?

dwallin 2y ago

I think the failures of iPadOS are really illuminating about the contrasting strengths of closed top-down design vs open stochastic exploration. Apple loves to craft an experience, and this design approach is great at taking large steps to get out of local maxima, and find new rich areas. Because they control the entire process they are theoretically able to make bigger moves and take larger design risk. For example, they could have never made the iPhone without this method of development. However any singular design vision is ALWAYS going to have blindspots that prevent it from reaching a better local optimal state. When it comes to figuring out these blindspots and moving towards a better local maxima, the best approach is having a lot of individuals experimenting widely. For example, if outside developers had more capability to explore different ways of managing files on an iPad, it's likely that someone would stumble upon a really great way of handling it that gains traction, and that Apple could adopt more widely.

stcredzero 2y ago
I think there's some connection between your comment: For example, if outside developers had more capability to explore different ways... ...and these 2 sentences from the article: For the sake of this argument, let’s posit that there exist tens of millions — perhaps 100 million — users who love the iPad for what it is. People who feel empowered, not hamstrung, by how it works, and who have no or very little need for a computer that exposes the complexity of a desktop OS like MacOS or Windows. And that there exist tens of millions more people who enjoy having an iPad to complement, not replace, their desktop computer. If someone did come up with an iPad competitor that had all of the ease of use, UX simplicity, and ecosystem benefits, but also better enabled power users with something nearer a desktop replacement, then this would simply kill the iPad. The fact that Apple seems reticent to do this themselves, indicates that there is a kind of organizational blind spot there, driven by self interest. Either that, or there are typical Apple long term plans that we're not fully aware of, and they're taking their own sweet time.

kmeisthax 2y ago

I own an iPad Pro 13", specifically for drawing. It is the best drawing tablet, attached to some of the most buggy and annoying software ever. I get it, you think the iPad should be 'simplified'. That's part of my frustration, but I can work within those limitations. What I find particularly galling is the bugginess of what is supposed to be fully supported. For example, the mouse cursor: occasionally it just snaps to the completely wrong place. Sometimes it'll grab onto the edge of a window, but only when you click. Or it'll just not let you click certain elements at all, like the maximize control on picture-in-picture videos, which you can roll over, but clicking snaps you to the edge of the special PiP window. None of this has to do with iPadOS limitations or whatever. This is purely just bugged, and four years into iPadOS having mouse support I'm still flabbergasted that Apple not only shipped it in such an unpolished state, but that multiple software updates have not brought a fix for it. I should never have to lift my finger off my trackpad to go touch something on the touchscreen just because the mouse support is dogshit. iPadOS isn't exactly built for file management, and a lot of older apps don't support it properly. Those are things I can't exactly ding Apple for (mostly), app developers need to fix their shit. But I can ding them for having file management that loves to crash. SMB support - which is crucial to all the video editing workflows Apple wants to enable on iPad - is basically a crapshoot at the best of times. It's very liable to take down whatever daemon is responsible for managing remote shares. When this happens, all file management on the iPad stops working, with apps hanging when they try to present a file picker. Killing and restarting Files does not fix this, and the only way to restart daemons on iPadOS is to restart the whole tablet. None of this feels like it's simplified, it just feels unfinished.

FeloniousHam 2y ago
I agree so hard with all this, but especially the file management. I dread having to share a file between applications (you draw/edit in one app, use the image in another). So many times I just can't find the file I saved/downloaded; it's not in "Recents", not in the iCloud app folder, the search is useless. Sometimes the Share button->Save File doesn't do anything. I still don't want to pick up my laptop after work, I just want real file manager.

asadotzler 2y ago

He's wrong because the alternative is not bigger, heavier and fatter, the alternative is the same form factor with days more of battery life. An iPad Air with one less display panel could fit more battery and with a more efficient, less power oriented APU could use less battery. Combined, Apple could have added meaningful battery longevity that it instead sacrificed for a brighter screen and better performance in rare and extreme workloads.