3 ms·

It doesn't matter if the the special FRAM memory cells in this gadget are good for 200+ years. All modern electrical stuff is hellishly complex, from a materia

It doesn't matter if the the special FRAM memory cells in this gadget are good for 200+ years. All modern electrical stuff is hellishly complex, from a materials engineering PoV, and there are many other parts of this flash drive that will likely fail in <2 centuries. Plus, why would you believe that (working) systems able to read USB drives will be available in 200+ years? SO - unless the data you're storing is worth a major effort by future computer historians, just find an old daisy-wheel printer, and save your 8K to archival quality paper. That'll be good for a thousand years or so.

lyu07282 2y ago
To be fair it's just SPI and a big package, super easy to read even centuries from now. I don't think we will somehow forget everything about basic electronics.
- pokeymcsnatch 2y ago
  Just need 3 switches and an indicator light
- crote 2y ago
  Not everything, but there might not be any surviving copies of the datasheet around. It's reasonably close to generic SPI flash chips that you could probably reverse engineer it, but it's not a guarantee.
  - cozzyd 2y ago
    Just store the datasheet on the drive! (If you can get it to fit...)
- bell-cot 2y ago
  Lead time / effort / skills / equipment to access printed data after >200 years: zero / minimal / basic literacy / any light source a person can easily read by Vs. reading data on this device, 200+ years out?
  - Turing_Machine 2y ago
    > Lead time / effort / skills / equipment to access printed data after >200 years As long as it hasn't burned, or crumbled, or molded, or...
hkwerf 2y ago
It's likely that there will be an I2C-enabled FRAM chip on there, though there are a few other devices which could hold those FRAM cells. I2C is ubiquitous, even more so than USB, and trivial to implement. There will certainly be enough information available to access those in 200 years, even if there's no USB anymore.
- londons_explore 2y ago
  > There will certainly be enough information available to access those in 200 years Still depends on humans in 200 years having use of computers and electricity. Civilisational collapse would likely mean humans will lose those skills (like we forgot how to make cement/concrete after the fall of the Roman empire and it took 1000 years to rediscover).
Rinzler89 2y ago
>Plus, why would you believe that (working) systems able to read USB drives will be available in 200+ years? This. The best long term archival media that can outlive generations has proven to be non-electronic ones (paper manuscripts, animal hides, cave paintings, rock engravings, etc). Even if you can still find USB readers 200+ years from now when we'll all use quantum computers and wear AR headsets or neuralink implants (provided we don't extinct ourselves through war and climate change till then), there's no guarantee the systems of the future will still be able to read file systems and data formats encoded in the standards of today, but to read stuff off paper/stone all you need is your eyes, no technology. For example, some retro computing youtubers I follow are struggling to decode 5.25" floppy data from 50 years ago because it was encoded in some niche proprietary non-standard format that modern SW has no idea about, so they have to low-level scan the magnetic flux off the things and then trial and error various encodings hoping something will stick. Meanwhile, a random small church in my country just found 500 year old books in its attic that are perfectly preserved and readable, and they have survived a church fire and over a dozen wars. Not saying such USB drives aren't useful for a specific niche, I'm sure they are, but if you're looking for 200+ year endurance you'll definitely want to diversify your data storage to non-electronic mediums as well and not bank it all on a USB drive with new unproven technology.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  > there's no guarantee the systems of the future will still be able to read file systems and data formats encoded in the standards of today If modern society survives continuously for 200 years, I don't see any reason we couldn't read current formats if they're actually standard and/or well-documented; we can, for example, still read original unix filesystems, if nothing else by running actual original unix in (open)simh, and that's 45-50 years old already.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    OK, but what about more than 200 years? What about the next civilizations? Also, a lot can happen in 200 years that can have unforeseen effect on the FRAM of that USB stick (EMPs from nuclear explosions, solar storms, etc)
ahlCVA 2y ago
> find an old daisy-wheel printer I'm definitely on board with the analog approach, but this is interesting. What's the reason for recommending a daisy-wheel printer compared to other printing technologies? Is it just that the deformation caused by the impact of the type serves as additional redundancy or is the ink (or its adhesion to the paper) somehow superior to other printing processes in this regard?
- bell-cot 2y ago
  My Reason: Low-tech ink, with a long-established track record of Just Working over long periods of time. (The deformation might help in corner cases such as poor storage conditions.) Vs. the plastic in laser printer toner might disintegrate in a few centuries, and chemical engineers may not know all the ways that modern inkjet formulations could degrade over time.
TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
The idea to start with USB at the first place is ridiculous. If it can't be printed on paper it should be based on some kind of dead simple serial protocol with relatively low baudrate so almost anyone with description of that protocol can reconstruct it on computational device used 200 years in the future. The USB itself is thousands of lines of code for USB driver in computer and special USB physical interface as well which might not be even manufactured in 200 years. It would be like today looking on some crazy parallel interface from 70s using non standard bit sizes (i.e 12 bit sizes bus) with complicated timing patterns and 5V TTL on physical layer if you are lucky.
eviks 2y ago
> That'll be good for a thousand years or so Unless a dog eats it
wongarsu 2y ago
This gadget is still interesting for its price. It's about as expensive as 50 sheets of archival quality paper and a lot more convenient. If you want to assure durability there are better methods. Good paper, parchment, fired clay, or high tech ideas like storing data in glass. But in terms of easy and cheap methods for one or two human lifespans this occupies a niche (together with archival-quality CDs and the like)
cdchn 2y ago
>Plus, why would you believe that (working) systems able to read USB drives will be available in 200+ years? Unless we hit another Dark Ages, I think its safe to assume the USB standard will survive.

lyu07282 2y ago

To be fair it's just SPI and a big package, super easy to read even centuries from now. I don't think we will somehow forget everything about basic electronics.

pokeymcsnatch 2y ago
Just need 3 switches and an indicator light
crote 2y ago
Not everything, but there might not be any surviving copies of the datasheet around. It's reasonably close to generic SPI flash chips that you could probably reverse engineer it, but it's not a guarantee.
- cozzyd 2y ago
  Just store the datasheet on the drive! (If you can get it to fit...)
bell-cot 2y ago
Lead time / effort / skills / equipment to access printed data after >200 years: zero / minimal / basic literacy / any light source a person can easily read by Vs. reading data on this device, 200+ years out?
- Turing_Machine 2y ago
  > Lead time / effort / skills / equipment to access printed data after >200 years As long as it hasn't burned, or crumbled, or molded, or...

hkwerf 2y ago

It's likely that there will be an I2C-enabled FRAM chip on there, though there are a few other devices which could hold those FRAM cells. I2C is ubiquitous, even more so than USB, and trivial to implement. There will certainly be enough information available to access those in 200 years, even if there's no USB anymore.

londons_explore 2y ago
> There will certainly be enough information available to access those in 200 years Still depends on humans in 200 years having use of computers and electricity. Civilisational collapse would likely mean humans will lose those skills (like we forgot how to make cement/concrete after the fall of the Roman empire and it took 1000 years to rediscover).

Rinzler89 2y ago

>Plus, why would you believe that (working) systems able to read USB drives will be available in 200+ years? This. The best long term archival media that can outlive generations has proven to be non-electronic ones (paper manuscripts, animal hides, cave paintings, rock engravings, etc). Even if you can still find USB readers 200+ years from now when we'll all use quantum computers and wear AR headsets or neuralink implants (provided we don't extinct ourselves through war and climate change till then), there's no guarantee the systems of the future will still be able to read file systems and data formats encoded in the standards of today, but to read stuff off paper/stone all you need is your eyes, no technology. For example, some retro computing youtubers I follow are struggling to decode 5.25" floppy data from 50 years ago because it was encoded in some niche proprietary non-standard format that modern SW has no idea about, so they have to low-level scan the magnetic flux off the things and then trial and error various encodings hoping something will stick. Meanwhile, a random small church in my country just found 500 year old books in its attic that are perfectly preserved and readable, and they have survived a church fire and over a dozen wars. Not saying such USB drives aren't useful for a specific niche, I'm sure they are, but if you're looking for 200+ year endurance you'll definitely want to diversify your data storage to non-electronic mediums as well and not bank it all on a USB drive with new unproven technology.

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
> there's no guarantee the systems of the future will still be able to read file systems and data formats encoded in the standards of today If modern society survives continuously for 200 years, I don't see any reason we couldn't read current formats if they're actually standard and/or well-documented; we can, for example, still read original unix filesystems, if nothing else by running actual original unix in (open)simh, and that's 45-50 years old already.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  OK, but what about more than 200 years? What about the next civilizations? Also, a lot can happen in 200 years that can have unforeseen effect on the FRAM of that USB stick (EMPs from nuclear explosions, solar storms, etc)

ahlCVA 2y ago

> find an old daisy-wheel printer I'm definitely on board with the analog approach, but this is interesting. What's the reason for recommending a daisy-wheel printer compared to other printing technologies? Is it just that the deformation caused by the impact of the type serves as additional redundancy or is the ink (or its adhesion to the paper) somehow superior to other printing processes in this regard?

bell-cot 2y ago
My Reason: Low-tech ink, with a long-established track record of Just Working over long periods of time. (The deformation might help in corner cases such as poor storage conditions.) Vs. the plastic in laser printer toner might disintegrate in a few centuries, and chemical engineers may not know all the ways that modern inkjet formulations could degrade over time.

TheLoafOfBread 2y ago

The idea to start with USB at the first place is ridiculous. If it can't be printed on paper it should be based on some kind of dead simple serial protocol with relatively low baudrate so almost anyone with description of that protocol can reconstruct it on computational device used 200 years in the future. The USB itself is thousands of lines of code for USB driver in computer and special USB physical interface as well which might not be even manufactured in 200 years. It would be like today looking on some crazy parallel interface from 70s using non standard bit sizes (i.e 12 bit sizes bus) with complicated timing patterns and 5V TTL on physical layer if you are lucky.

eviks 2y ago

> That'll be good for a thousand years or so Unless a dog eats it

wongarsu 2y ago

This gadget is still interesting for its price. It's about as expensive as 50 sheets of archival quality paper and a lot more convenient. If you want to assure durability there are better methods. Good paper, parchment, fired clay, or high tech ideas like storing data in glass. But in terms of easy and cheap methods for one or two human lifespans this occupies a niche (together with archival-quality CDs and the like)

cdchn 2y ago

>Plus, why would you believe that (working) systems able to read USB drives will be available in 200+ years? Unless we hit another Dark Ages, I think its safe to assume the USB standard will survive.