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Ubuntu 24.10 to Default to Wayland for Nvidia Users
- rurban 2y agoSceptical, because 24.04 doesn't work at all by default with my new Nvidia ThinkPad laptop. Opposed to fedora fc40, which works just fine, even with hibernation and suspend
- janice1999 2y agoWayland has been hit and miss for me on Intel and AMD graphics over the years but has progressively gotten better and more stable.... Until an update on Ubuntu 23.10 a week ago randomly stopped snap application launching under Wayland, forcing me back to Xorg. I consider myself fairly Linux savvy but I still have no idea how to fix that.
- saurik 2y agoWere you benefiting from the use of Xorg and are now missing something important?
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago? It sounds like they don't care except that Xorg works and Wayland doesn't
- saurik 2y ago[edit] Oh. Damn. I now see I made a really critical typo/mistake in my question: I meant to say Wayland, not Xorg. :/ [original reply, based on a faulty interpretation of your response due to my not realizing I made the typo I had] Well, that would be my position for sure... at which point I would argue they in fact did know how to fix their issue: stop using Wayland. But like, people sometimes claim to have good reasons to be using Wayland, and so before I start going down that path I wanted to hear, from them, whether they actually cared about Wayland for a real reason.
- kiwijamo 2y agoWayland on Debian has been rock solid for me for several years now (and much better than Xorg ever was to be honest) using Intel GPUs in my experience. I haven't tried AMD/nVidia however. I use Flatpak which is another point of difference vs your setup using Snap. I can't really see myself going back to xorg TBH.
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- porphyra 2y agoI wish Nvidia would work nicely with Sway. I fully understand the Sway developers' dislike of Nvidia considering how hostile Nvidia was for many years. I suppose nowadays Sway should work with Nvidia but you still have to use the `--unsupported-gpu` option and enable kernel modesetting.
- Zambyte 2y agoI have been using --unsuported-gpu on my laptop with a quadro card in it for years
- hyperpl 2y agoAny idea if you can use the proprietary nvidia driver for better gaming performance while running sway via nouveau? I'm still on i3 on my desktop but sway everywhere I have amdgpu or intel.
- Zambyte 2y agoYou definitely can't run nouveau at the same time as the propriety drivers. You can just use the proprietary drivers though. I don't know my exact stack, but I have definitely run CUDA and ROCm software while using Sway.
- porphyra 2y agoWith recent nvidia versions, proprietary drivers work decently with Sway if you enable kernel modesetting. There was some jank with fbdev (an optional framebuffer thing with better performance) at some point, not sure if version 550 fixed it.
- porphyra 2y agoI just retried Sway on nvidia proprietary drivers. It is still a bad experience imo compared to i3. * Cursor didn't show up at first. I had to use `export WLR_NO_HARDWARE_CURSORS=1`, but the software cursor had some noticeable latency to it. * Extreme flickering in both Firefox and terminals. I installed wlroots-nvidia [1] but even then the flickering, while improved, was not gone. I manually played with WLR_RENDERER options between gles2 and vulkan but they all had flickering. [2] In the end I decided that the flickering issue prevents me from using Sway. Hardware: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4080 Super Driver: 550 OS: Arch Linux [1] https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/wlroots-nvidia https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/wlroots-nvidia [2] https://streamable.com/akq43p https://streamable.com/akq43p
- aeyes 2y agoThis week I tried Wayland with Nvidia again on Arch and it was terrible, I experienced lag, bad performance and weird glitches like a jumping cursor. I admit that I only played with this for an hour or so. Maybe I didn't do some of the necessary configs to get a good experience, I just followed the Arch wiki instructions. I hope it's better on Ubuntu.
- KingMachiavelli 2y agoWhich card and desktop environment? The only bug I still experience is occasional desktop flickering. TBH Archlinux and NixOS have the easiest Nvidia experience because IIRC I think Ubuntu still defaults to Nouveau?
- aeyes 2y agoRTX 3070 on Plasma with the latest Nvidia driver. Things are probably better with AMD. I used Arch for 2 years and Fedora for about a year. I just can't handle Linux as a daily driver anymore, I don't really want to deal with all the little annoyances anymore. Every couple of months I come back to see if things are improving. I have zero issues with Windows. I don't do much dev work on this machine and when I do a VM is good enough for me.
- KingMachiavelli 2y agoI've had a nearly perfect experience with Intel and AMD. It's pretty rare to have a machine now days without integrated graphics so it's easy enough to just use the integrated GPU for the desktop environment and only use the dedicated/Nvidia GPU for games/CUDA stuff.
- CynicusRex 2y ago“I don't really want to deal with all the little annoyances anymore” and “I have zero issues with Windows” does not compute. Or are you running Windows XP/7? I'm running EndevourOS (Arch), KDE Plasma 6 on X11 and rarely have issues. Wayland isn't nice to me though. And as long as XScreenSaver doesn't work on it I likely won't switch. The same for AutoKey, although Hawck seems to be an alternative (https://github.com/snyball/Hawck https://github.com/snyball/Hawck).
- KingMachiavelli 2y agoGood, it's been long enough for GPU manufacturers to ensure proper Wayland support and with the exception of EOL Nvidia cards (Kepler and older I think), everything mostly works on Wayland. wlroots + Nvidia still has some issues like flickering but AFAIK that's mostly been solved. The issue with popular distro's like Ubuntu defaulting to X11 for certain hardware is it allows companies like Nvidia to de-prioritize Wayland support. Even in the best case, Nvidia's Linux docs are still written assuming Ubuntu + Xorg which is very unhelpful. I bet we'll finally see proper Wayland-focused documentation and more Wayland compatibility updates from Nvidia within a year or two just because Ubuntu changes the default.
- SuperNinKenDo 2y agoI'm inclined to agree with you about it being time to make life difficult for nvidia, but that's mainly because I totally disagree with much of what else you said. Running nvidia with Wayland is a bloody nightmare, I've been gritting my teeth for the last year or more and I'm about ready to go back. I just have an application that relies on it and some particularly terrible tearing problems on X11 for some reason. But on Wayland, with nvidia, so many little and big things are still totally broken, and oftentimes the failure is not graceful, but stateful and problematic, and I'm someone who knows what I'm doing.
- ranguna 2y agoTo be honest, I don't think it's going to be the Ubuntu community (or even the whole Linux desktop community) that's going to pressure nvidia to support wayland. We are all but a drop in the nvidia ocean.
- Vilian 2y agoRHEL deprecated xorg, and in the same year we had the biggest wayland fixed in nvidia drivers
- KingMachiavelli 2y agoIt's not the Ubuntu community that will convince Nvidia it's their large enterprise customers that want docs like "How to develop CUDA application on Linux (Ubuntu 18.04)". Nvidia can only use an ancient Ubuntu version as the baseline for so long before they get complains from large customers. Nvidia doesn't want to loose it's position as easy to develop for (compared to AMD's mess).
- jsdavo 2y agoWayland breaks the GlobalProtect™ VPN client. Quite annoying.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago...why would a VPN client care? Like, okay fine the thing is a VPN that for some absurd reason needs a GUI window - does it not work under xwayland!?
- sebastos 2y agoWhy is that damn client so finicky in the first place? Even on X it's always been unreliable. What the heck did they do that makes it so delicate?
- viraptor 2y agoBlame marketing, branding and pressure for value-add. There's no reason for anyone to have a VPN client you can see. It's all IPSec, OpenVPN, or wireguard under the covers. It should be handed off to the OS, but every corp needs to be a special little snowflake and show you their logo. (Yeah, I'm bitter, I fought with way too many crappy GUI wrappers for openvpn CLI) Once the app exists, there seems to be little pressure to make it actually good - one of them updated and literally removed the necessary client but just from the MacOS releases. (ZeroTier gets a pass though because it's an uncommon protocol and I can't remember the last time I've actually seen the app open - as it should be.)
- fyrn_ 2y agoTo be fair Even on MacOS (presumably bigger market for them) a strong breeze breaks GlobalProtect™
- nolongerthere 2y agoThere’s something very weird about macOS multitasking in general, onedrive and other apps that you’d expect to stay alive always in the background constantly need to be refreshed.
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- boppo1 2y agoXfce is pretty much stuck on Xorg, right? Not that I'm complaining, given what I've heard about the nvidia-wayland experience.
- mmh0000 2y agoAs a long time Xorg user, I am finding it very hard to switch to Wayland. I’ve tried twice over the years and each time it only lasted about a day before I got too frustrated and went back to Xorg. The biggest annoyance by far is all the little scripts I’ve created over the years which use `xdotool` magic for sizing, positioning, and minimizing-and-restoring. My other annoyance is Wayland has no `easystroke` like application, and having used StrokeIt on Windows for years, then easystroke on Linux for many more years, I just can’t use a computer efficiently without it.
- zamadatix 2y agoDepending what you use xdotool for ydotool may work. If it's almost all window management stuff though that's a tougher answer as it more or less really comes down to "find a window manager that lets you do those kinds of customations natively instead putting the same amount of work into migrating into another workaround" which is not necessarily a minor change, particularly when you've already worked out a solution on your current window manager and gotten used to it. Finding one that lets you do those kinds of action usually the easy part, e.g. i3/sway will let you directly script any action you like and you can bit it to any keys you like or externally trigger it via message bus... the hard part is more the "and it also comes with these changes" like those two being focused on tiling use cases while you may (or may not) be looking for something more exactly like some other window manager just with customizable hotkeys. I don't have much advice on the gesture stuff as I only use "plain" gestures so haven't looked into it. Technically there isn't anything about this that should require X11 but that doesn't mean anyone has actually made a nice convenient tool for it. Of course, no reason to jump immediately just because it'll be the default in the non-lts versions. Waiting some more may make the above less work to figure out. Two years ago it would have been many times more difficult and two years prior to that a "maybe this git branch will work" adventure for basic things.
- bpmooch 2y agoIt is annoying any time you have to change tools, but in this instance, I'd say most like you need to start by throwing away all your scripts. You may find you need less of them. As far as easystroke goes, oof yea
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- nolongerthere 2y ago<insert “and this point I’m too afraid to ask” meme> Can anyone explain how Wayland and X(?) relate to Linux? Like what’s the windows equivalent? I’ve used Ubuntu desktop a few times, I keep liveUSB versions of mint, Suse, and Ubuntu on my ventoy, but I just don’t understand what the deal is with the constant discussion of Wayland and X…
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y agoWindows includes both display hardware handling functionality and a GUI framework to run on top of it. All of that is part of the OS that Microsoft provides A Linux system is assembled from several parts that aren't all that related to each other beyond the API interfaces exposed/used The Linux kernel brings a lot of core OS functionality, including display hardware handling, and a framework to expand that with hardware-specific drivers The kernel does not bring a GUI framework. That has to come separately. X and Wayland are both approaches to filling that gap on Linux systems X is basically how GUIs have worked on most Linux/Unix systems for the last few decades. There's some weird cruft from the assumptions used when the X framework was designed Wayland is trying to get rid of the cruft and align better to how computers are used today. But it has to fight against X's inertia, and it's been a long road to Wayland being "daily driver" usable
- simoncion 2y ago> ...it's been a long road to Wayland being "daily driver" usable Fifteen years and counting! If my math is right, it's older now than XFree86 was when Xorg was forked from it, and ~six months younger than XFree86 was when xorg got XRandR and input hotplugging support.
- nolongerthere 2y agoThank you for the very detailed explanation!
- wmf 2y agoWayland is somewhat akin to DWM in Windows. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_Window_Manager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_Window_Manager
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y agoAs an end user, is there any immediate usability gains to be had with Wayland today? I understand X is old and crufty, but if I embraced the switch do I gain anything? Or more it sets the stage for future improvements kind of thing?
- elliotto 2y agoI had a nightmare trying to get a 4 x 4k monitor setup using Xorg. When I switched to Wayland, basically all my problems were solved and it worked out of the box. The Xorg multiple monitor support is really bad and barely works if you are trying to do anything complex with it. If that's not a problem you have then great! But most people today are using multiple monitors.
- simoncion 2y ago> If that's not a problem you have then great! But most people today are using multiple monitors. Just out of curiosity, what was complex about your quad 4k monitor configuration? As a lark, I've used xrandr to do all sorts of weird stuff and it has handled it just fine. I've been using multiple monitors with xorg for fifteen, twenty years. (For quite a while, I used three monitors, but now I just have two.) Until XRandR became a thing, configuring them was definitely a headache, but after its release, everything Just Works(TM). On my laptops, I've always used Intel hardware, and on my desktop, I've always used ATi/AMD hardware. Are you -perhaps- using nVidia hardware? If you are, that may be the source of your problems... nVidia's Linux support for the little things that make using a graphical desktop not tear-your-hair-out bad has always been pretty awful. (Usually because they typically refuse to do what everyone else does and go off and make an incompatible version that's generally worse.)
- doix 2y agoThe problem with xorg is per monitor scaling. If your laptop is 4k and you want 2x scaling and your external monitor is a 32" 4k monitor that doesn't need scaling (or 1.25x) then you're basically shit out of luck with Xorg. I think it's on the verge of being impossible to be honest. If you don't need any scaling then yeah, xrandr is fine. I ran 4 24" monitors, 2 horizontal and 2 vertical and xrandar handles it just fine.
- teaearlgraycold 2y agoIs there a good Wayland post-mortem style write-up detailing what went wrong and why it's taken this long and still isn't solid?
- frognumber 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect Also, the people who originally developed X were brilliant and X was brilliant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias In general: - Brilliant people in the eighties will still write better code than typical people in the 2020s. - Ditto for brilliant code. A lot of this is actually pretty random. Sometimes an idiot will architect something great by accident, and vice-versa. - Most things written in the eighties still used are really, really good in some way (or they would have been replaced many times over). So most attempts to replace classic technologies end up with dramatically inferior replacements. Classic Unix was really, really good. It survived not because OSes in the sixties and seventies were any good (most weren't), but because if you build many of them, one will turn out great. I'm not sure there's much more than that.
- MyFedora 2y agoAs I'm sure you're keenly aware, Wayland is inspired by X12 protocol drafts, made by X11 and Xorg developers, and a direct successor but not drop-in replacement for X11.
- johnny22 2y agoI can't imagine someone being able to write one without being flamed on all sides because there are so many guilty parties including the potential users themselves. I don't think it helped that the core protocols were so minimal though or that the reference implementation was really just that. Both GNOME and KDE went their own way on building their own compositors and I think that was sad :(
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
- xyst 2y agoAre there any good Linux desktop communities y’all recommend joining? I want to setup a passwordless workflow with a Linux desktop environment, but I’m honestly lost between “Wayland” vs “wlroots” vs “X”. I only understand that Wayland is the preferred “display server” and “X” only exists for legacy. And this is only the display server. I have not even delved into the other components. Right now, I have setup a basic desktop environment. Boot up VM or PC -> presented with a terminal to ”login” -> input user -> input password -> load basic terminal (i guess this is called a “tty” (?) -> type command to load desktop environment -> do stuff What I am looking for is: Register yubikey with user and password as fallback. Reboot PC and leave yubikey connected. As PC boots up, it will automatically see yubikey corresponds to user on machine, and proceeds to load in desktop environment. No more manual process as described above. Can “do stuff” much faster. Can even use the yubikey for subsequent operations in user space (ie, sudo authentication). Would be cool to have a security feature that will lock the session if it has been removed; or have ability to fallback to manual password entry (in case hw auth is broken). I have been able to do this in macOS to a certain degree of success with TouchID. But every time I update the machine, Apple update process resets the pam modules.
- nine_k 2y agoPAM was invented for scenarios like that. AFAICT logind uses PAM no matter what graphics server are you running. So this likely works under Wayland and X equally, provided the right yubikey: https://adl1995.github.io/passwordless-logins-with-yubikey.html https://adl1995.github.io/passwordless-logins-with-yubikey.h...
- xyst 2y agoOh thanks for sharing, this seems promising. I’ll look into this.
- porphyra 2y agofyi wlroots is an implementation of Wayland.
- roenxi 2y ago> Are there any good Linux desktop communities y’all recommend joining? I don't know of any (phoronix.com, maybe? it slants more towards hardware enthusiasts than desktops so probably not, but it tends to be interested in things like drivers), and I'd be surprised if they existed for the interesting parts of the graphics stack. In the old times (2010) X was the only option and it handled display. There has been a huge push since AMD got serious about open source graphics to redesign the graphics subsystem to be more linux-y by transforming it into something a bit more like a Jenga tower of components stapled together (wayland is one of them) that coordinate to replace X. The coordinating body seems to be freedesktop.org but it takes a lot of investigating to figure out what it is they are doing at any given time. It happens very slowly though so knowledge picked up can stay current for a decade or more. The new component based world has a couple of key nodes where the work happens - the kernel (DRM subsystem specifically) for drivers, freedesktop.org for technical compatibility coordination, mesa3d.org for the heavy lifting libraries, Red Hat for pipewire that picks up the slack that Wayland fumbled, then the morass of compositers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_display_servers#Wayland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_display_servers#Waylan...) that are the user-facing part and where most people will interact with all this. They all have their own communities but IMO it is unclear which will take the lead outside the majors like KDE and Gnome. swaywm so far but I don't think it has a community anywhere as such.
- anymouse123456 2y agoJust a friendly warning to folks who might think these updates work. They did not work on my system. If you have a working workstation with NVidia hardware on Ubuntu LTS, keep waiting. Chrome no longer works for me on this mess.
- fooker 2y agoI have not been able to make Wayland+KDE work on Arch with a 3080ti card. Not sure if this fundamentally does not work yet or if I’m missing something.
- zamadatix 2y agoFor some reason Arch does not fully handle things when you switch from nouveau. You have to manually blacklist nouveau then set nvidia_drm.modeset=1.
- aeyes 2y agoDid you add the nvidia_drm.modeset=1 kernel parameter? https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/NVIDIA#DRM_kernel_mode_setting https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/NVIDIA#DRM_kernel_mode_sett... That did the trick for me. Without that I only got a black screen with the cursor.
- fooker 2y agoYes, this did not work for me. I can get into the plasma session, but it's basically unusable
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 2y agoLast time I was on Wayland I crashed the entire desktop (plasma) by dragging a hyperlink from one browser to another. Definitely ready for primetime!