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What’s stopping Ukraine and its allies from building these? If they’re so cheap and simple. Let’s say you start pounding blocks down in the major cities in sout

What’s stopping Ukraine and its allies from building these? If they’re so cheap and simple. Let’s say you start pounding blocks down in the major cities in southwest Russia and see how they feel after that

genman 2y ago
Exactly the opposite of what is not stopping Russia to do it.
akira2501 2y ago
> What’s stopping Ukraine and its allies from building these? A nuclear World War 3? > Let’s say you start pounding blocks Let's say we just start the peace negotiation process in earnest this time.
- squidbeak 2y ago
  World War 3 hasn't broken out despite Ukraine possesing JDAMs. Ukraine needs a powerful bargaining position before entering negotiations, and though it's regrettable this is the case, a powerful bargaining position derives from power on the battlefield. The best route to peace is therefore to give Ukraine as deadly a sting as possible.
- oblio 2y ago
  Russia's not going to use nukes, for the same reasons the US didn't use them in Korea or Vietnam or the USSR didn't in Afganistan.
  - hollerith 2y ago
    There was serious discussion in Washington of nuking China after China's entry into the Korean war. (Specifically, nuking concentrations of rice fields, causing starvation until the Beijing relents, at which time Washington would provide food aid.) When in the 1960s tensions between Moscow and Peking rose, Moscow asked Washington if Washington would be okay with Moscow's nuking China. (Washington replied with a firm no.) Although Russia is probably not going to resort to nukes, the risk is high enough that I wish my country (the US) had started drastically increasing American preparedness for nuclear war when it started sending military aid to Ukraine.
  - casenmgreen 2y ago
    Given the catastrophe risk involved in their use, there is much to be alarmed at simply to consider the possibilities of accident use - miscommunication, false alarms, broken technology, etc. It takes more than one thing going wrong at the same time, for an accident to happen, but that happens - that's why we have car accidents - only here we're talking about a potentially civilization/climate ending accident. Better not to be in that situation in the first place.
    - oblio 2y ago
      This logic fails at first scrutiny, look up Salami tactics.
- polotics 2y ago
  I don't think Putin can reasonably enter any kind of peace negotiations now: he's clearly losing Crimea, and the rest of the territory the troops under his command was able to invade does not at all resonate with the Russian people. Also there is the question of reparations: the Russians have already done more damage than the 350B$ of foreign currency their central bank has (had?) oversea...
  - postalrat 2y ago
    "he's clearly losing Crimea". how?
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      Where is the Black Sea Fleet?
      - rasz 2y ago
        russia gained two more submarines just last night.
  - MaxPock 2y ago
    Where do you get your news from if I may ask ?
    - polotics 2y ago
      I recommend you check out https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineConflict/new/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineConflict/new/ ... but only if you're ready to see some fried Buryat...
- jwr 2y ago
  Peace does not require "negotiation" in this war. There is a clear aggressor: Russia. So things are really simple, at least this once. All that is needed is for Russia to stop murdering Ukrainians and retreat from all Ukrainian territory, and we will have peace.
  - bananenpubs 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - mvc 2y ago
      And if those regions are given up today and peace is declared between Ukraine and Russia why would Russia not just apply the same strategy tomorrow to destabilise and then annex a big chunk of Georgia/Estonia/Moldova.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - bananenpubs 2y ago
        [flagged]
        dragonwriter 2y ago
        > USSR was also once told in ~1990 “no NATO expansion to your doorstep”. No, they weren’t, as even Gorbachev admitted, and even if they had been given private assurance not memorialized in a treaty or even a formal executive agreement, there would be no reasonable expectation of a binding commitment that survived the administrations on each side then in power, much less an actual collapse of the Soviet Union. It’s not like the Soviet Union didn’t understand the mechanics of how binding international commitments are formed.
        bananenpubs 2y ago
        [flagged]
- casenmgreen 2y ago
  The only viable peaceful solution is Russian withdrawal, and Putin has made it clear this is off the menu. Anything else rewards and encourages the use of invasion, profoundly encourages China to invade Taiwan, and North Korean and Iran. It will also anyway only be a temporary peace; Putin will try again in some years time. Anyone want to trust him when he promises not to - again? The West has been forced to spend vast amounts of money, in many ways, and millions of people have been forced to flee Ukraine and resettle in the West, and about 500,000 people have been maimed or killed. To not win after such costs is to lose. It also means all nations which have a threatening neighbour need their own nuclear weapons. That's in the end will lead to their use. There is also a more personal reason. The world has a lot of shit in it, and people generally are increasingly depressed in their normal, day to day lives, because of it. We are not happy. Stopping Putin would bright a vast ray of hope and a vision of a decent future in our lives.
- oblio 2y ago
  > Let's say we just start the peace negotiation process in earnest this time. Also, there can be no peace between the sheep and the wolf. Russia believes Ukraine does not and cannot exists. How can that ever lead to long lasting peace and long term territorial integrity for Ukraine? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_Munich https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_Munich
squidbeak 2y ago
They're called JDAMs - Joint Direct Attack Munition - and Ukraine has had them since March 2023 https://armyrecognition.com/focus-analysis-conflicts/army/conflicts-in-the-world/russia-ukraine-war-2022/ukrainian-air-force-uses-us-supplied-jdam-er-precision-guided-bombs-mounted-on-su-27-fighter https://armyrecognition.com/focus-analysis-conflicts/army/co...
- melling 2y ago
  “published range of up to 15 nautical miles (28 km)” They don’t have them same range. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Direct_Attack_Munition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Direct_Attack_Munition The article does say there are longer range versions “hitting targets up to 72 kilometers (45 miles) away.” Maybe it comes down to Russia having a much bigger air force. The other thing to consider is what’s being targeted? Ukrainian infrastructure.
  - squidbeak 2y ago
    JDAM-ER (which Ukraine has) have an extended range of about that. https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/joint-direct-attack-munition-extended-range-jdam-usa/ https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/joint-direct-at...
  - squidbeak 2y ago
    I should have pointed out, the big difference between the rival weapons is political. Ukraine is restricted to using its JDAMs against targets in occupied land. Russia isn't bound that way, which is a problem for cities close to the Russian border, such as Kharkiv and Sumy.
- g8oz 2y ago
  Yep and Israel has used many in Gaza.
baybal2 2y ago
[dead]
ac130kz 2y ago
Lefties proactively (sometimes even get paid with Moscow's bloody money directly or serve as "useful idiots") oppose help to Ukraine.
- navane 2y ago
  Lefties? It's the usefools on the right wing who oppose it. At least in my country and the US.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ac130kz 2y ago
    I don't see them as right wing really, they act the exact opposite of what they should do. There are no rapid actions performed, every bit is very slow and delayed.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    There is a loud faction rhetorically on the “Left” that does too, though they don’t have any allies in office; their main role is trying to pull the left electorate away from Biden and the Democrats to third parties in the election, so that Trump and the GOP will win.
- deadbolt 2y ago
  Which 'lefties' in congress have been holding up additional aid to Ukraine?
  - ac130kz 2y ago
    The entire congress itself has been holding back budget actions, including aid to Ukraine this year. The lend lease act has started May 2022, when it was too late to punch back hard. It ended in Q3 2023 without bringing tanks, pcs on time in 2022.
  - denton-scratch 2y ago
    There are no "lefties" in Congress. Here in the UK, there is definitely a community of vocal old-skool commies that I would refer to as "tankies". George Galloway is probably the most notable tankie politician (recently elected to Parliament). Galloway is famous for his grovelling address to Saddam Hussein: "I salute your [...] indefatigability."
ransom1538 2y ago
Ukraine is literally banned by the US from using US ordinance in RU. But at this point, Ukraine better break some rules.
- squidbeak 2y ago
  Ukraine needs to be able to use its western supplied longer range weapons against the airbases these sorties are launched from.
13415 2y ago
Intentionally targeting civilian areas with those bombs is a war crime. Ukraine avoids committing war crimes, Russia has committed many of them. There will be charges against Russia. There is even some evidence that Russia commits genocide: forced kidnapping of children, forced reeducation, some ethnic cleansing with deportations (though not very systematic), mass killings of civilians, and public speeches by government officials who deny Ukraine a right to exist and therefore can serve as proof of intent.
reese_john 2y ago
There is now the GLSDB (Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb) which is supposed to be a cheap, longish-range (~ 150 km) guided bomb built on top of the GBU-39 platform. It was developed by Boeing and Saab. Ukraine has had it since earlier this year. Apparently, it is not being as effective as one would've hoped though due to heavy Russian GPS jamming [1] [0] https://www.saab.com/products/ground-launched-small-diameter-bomb-glsdb https://www.saab.com/products/ground-launched-small-diameter... [1] https://www.twz.com/land/have-ground-launched-small-diameter-bombs-been-thrown-aside-by-ukraine https://www.twz.com/land/have-ground-launched-small-diameter...
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  GLSDB is, as the “Ground Launched” indicates, not the same thing as an aerial glide bomb, but is instead a warhead for GMLRS rockets fired from launchers like the HIMARS.’ EDIT: OTOH, its based on the SDB, which is a (small, 250lb) glide bomb with decent (40km) range whichthe US has currently only integrated the on the F-15E Strike Eagle, which Ukraine doesn’t have. There’s a long list of other potential future carriers envisioned by the US (including the F-16, which Ukraine will soon be operating), and integrating Western weapons with Soviet-design aircraft has been happening a fair amount in Ukraine, so if the problems affecting GLSDB were solved, SDB would be a real possibility for them, as well.
surfingdino 2y ago
Different approach to waging war. The West is focused on disabling military targets, Russians wage total war without distinction between military and civilian targets. Therefore, Western weapons only need to destroy a rocket launcher vehicle, Russians are ok with pulverising the whole village around it. Details like war crimes are not really a thing they loose sleep over. They have gotten away with so many why would they care now?
- donottell 2y ago
  [dead]
- hsyehbeidhh 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - me_me_me 2y ago
    Just go back and look at the chechen war. Russia tried to fight like a modern military only to go back to artillery and leveling cities to the ground. Thats all they ever did, brute force
    - hsyehbeidhh 2y ago
      But that may also be way of waging war. In fact, the US did the same on Bagadad. Why you lamenting that? I don't understand it. Are you complaining that they may not be following the Geneva Convention's rule? How about Gitmo? There are no rules. The only apparent rules are those that are pushed louder by the media propaganda. As the West currently excels in that, you have the impression that those are the rules. But they would change them quickly and feed you some other "rules" if those would not suit them equally well. And most of the "war crimes" they fed you probably never happen. Lies, lies, lies. The only different you can make to your life is whether you are going to believe them or question them. After Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libia, and Syria, you still believe them? Have they brainwashed you so badly?
denton-scratch 2y ago
They're bombs; you're supposed to drop them from a plane. Ukraine isn't doing a lot of military aviation just now.
dragonwriter 2y ago
> What’s stopping Ukraine and its allies from building these? Ukraine and its allies have much smaller stores of large, outdated dumb bombs to refit, and Ukraine has a much smaller Air Force with which to deploy them, so it makes little sense for Ukraine and its allies to build this particular solution (the West has purpose developed – or already modified – glide bombs, but, again, Ukraine’s smaller air force and not having the exact planes on which those are integrate is a bit of a barrier, though the second part is relatively easily overcome.) > Let’s say you start pounding blocks down in the major cities in southwest Russia and see how they feel after that Neither Ukraine nor, even moreso, its allies are interested in pounding city blocks in Southwest Russia indiscriminately. OTOH, military bases, oil infrastructure, etc. are a bit of a different story, but they are finding ways to do that without glide bombs.
- f38zf5vdt 2y ago
  > Ukraine and its allies have much smaller stores of large, outdated dumb bombs to refit, Unlikely, the US still has a lot (hundreds of thousands) of dumb bombs. As you said, they don't have a good delivery platform until the F-16s get there. The US orders 20-30k JDAM kits _per year_.

genman 2y ago

Exactly the opposite of what is not stopping Russia to do it.

akira2501 2y ago

> What’s stopping Ukraine and its allies from building these? A nuclear World War 3? > Let’s say you start pounding blocks Let's say we just start the peace negotiation process in earnest this time.

squidbeak 2y ago
World War 3 hasn't broken out despite Ukraine possesing JDAMs. Ukraine needs a powerful bargaining position before entering negotiations, and though it's regrettable this is the case, a powerful bargaining position derives from power on the battlefield. The best route to peace is therefore to give Ukraine as deadly a sting as possible.
oblio 2y ago
Russia's not going to use nukes, for the same reasons the US didn't use them in Korea or Vietnam or the USSR didn't in Afganistan.
- hollerith 2y ago
  There was serious discussion in Washington of nuking China after China's entry into the Korean war. (Specifically, nuking concentrations of rice fields, causing starvation until the Beijing relents, at which time Washington would provide food aid.) When in the 1960s tensions between Moscow and Peking rose, Moscow asked Washington if Washington would be okay with Moscow's nuking China. (Washington replied with a firm no.) Although Russia is probably not going to resort to nukes, the risk is high enough that I wish my country (the US) had started drastically increasing American preparedness for nuclear war when it started sending military aid to Ukraine.
- casenmgreen 2y ago
  Given the catastrophe risk involved in their use, there is much to be alarmed at simply to consider the possibilities of accident use - miscommunication, false alarms, broken technology, etc. It takes more than one thing going wrong at the same time, for an accident to happen, but that happens - that's why we have car accidents - only here we're talking about a potentially civilization/climate ending accident. Better not to be in that situation in the first place.
  - oblio 2y ago
    This logic fails at first scrutiny, look up Salami tactics.
polotics 2y ago
I don't think Putin can reasonably enter any kind of peace negotiations now: he's clearly losing Crimea, and the rest of the territory the troops under his command was able to invade does not at all resonate with the Russian people. Also there is the question of reparations: the Russians have already done more damage than the 350B$ of foreign currency their central bank has (had?) oversea...
- postalrat 2y ago
  "he's clearly losing Crimea". how?
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    Where is the Black Sea Fleet?
    - rasz 2y ago
      russia gained two more submarines just last night.
- MaxPock 2y ago
  Where do you get your news from if I may ask ?
  - polotics 2y ago
    I recommend you check out https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineConflict/new/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineConflict/new/ ... but only if you're ready to see some fried Buryat...
jwr 2y ago
Peace does not require "negotiation" in this war. There is a clear aggressor: Russia. So things are really simple, at least this once. All that is needed is for Russia to stop murdering Ukrainians and retreat from all Ukrainian territory, and we will have peace.
- bananenpubs 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - mvc 2y ago
    And if those regions are given up today and peace is declared between Ukraine and Russia why would Russia not just apply the same strategy tomorrow to destabilise and then annex a big chunk of Georgia/Estonia/Moldova.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - bananenpubs 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - dragonwriter 2y ago
        > USSR was also once told in ~1990 “no NATO expansion to your doorstep”. No, they weren’t, as even Gorbachev admitted, and even if they had been given private assurance not memorialized in a treaty or even a formal executive agreement, there would be no reasonable expectation of a binding commitment that survived the administrations on each side then in power, much less an actual collapse of the Soviet Union. It’s not like the Soviet Union didn’t understand the mechanics of how binding international commitments are formed.
        bananenpubs 2y ago
        [flagged]
casenmgreen 2y ago
The only viable peaceful solution is Russian withdrawal, and Putin has made it clear this is off the menu. Anything else rewards and encourages the use of invasion, profoundly encourages China to invade Taiwan, and North Korean and Iran. It will also anyway only be a temporary peace; Putin will try again in some years time. Anyone want to trust him when he promises not to - again? The West has been forced to spend vast amounts of money, in many ways, and millions of people have been forced to flee Ukraine and resettle in the West, and about 500,000 people have been maimed or killed. To not win after such costs is to lose. It also means all nations which have a threatening neighbour need their own nuclear weapons. That's in the end will lead to their use. There is also a more personal reason. The world has a lot of shit in it, and people generally are increasingly depressed in their normal, day to day lives, because of it. We are not happy. Stopping Putin would bright a vast ray of hope and a vision of a decent future in our lives.
oblio 2y ago
> Let's say we just start the peace negotiation process in earnest this time. Also, there can be no peace between the sheep and the wolf. Russia believes Ukraine does not and cannot exists. How can that ever lead to long lasting peace and long term territorial integrity for Ukraine? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_Munich https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_Munich

squidbeak 2y ago

They're called JDAMs - Joint Direct Attack Munition - and Ukraine has had them since March 2023 https://armyrecognition.com/focus-analysis-conflicts/army/conflicts-in-the-world/russia-ukraine-war-2022/ukrainian-air-force-uses-us-supplied-jdam-er-precision-guided-bombs-mounted-on-su-27-fighter https://armyrecognition.com/focus-analysis-conflicts/army/co...

melling 2y ago
“published range of up to 15 nautical miles (28 km)” They don’t have them same range. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Direct_Attack_Munition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Direct_Attack_Munition The article does say there are longer range versions “hitting targets up to 72 kilometers (45 miles) away.” Maybe it comes down to Russia having a much bigger air force. The other thing to consider is what’s being targeted? Ukrainian infrastructure.
- squidbeak 2y ago
  JDAM-ER (which Ukraine has) have an extended range of about that. https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/joint-direct-attack-munition-extended-range-jdam-usa/ https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/joint-direct-at...
- squidbeak 2y ago
  I should have pointed out, the big difference between the rival weapons is political. Ukraine is restricted to using its JDAMs against targets in occupied land. Russia isn't bound that way, which is a problem for cities close to the Russian border, such as Kharkiv and Sumy.
g8oz 2y ago
Yep and Israel has used many in Gaza.

baybal2 2y ago

[dead]

ac130kz 2y ago

Lefties proactively (sometimes even get paid with Moscow's bloody money directly or serve as "useful idiots") oppose help to Ukraine.

navane 2y ago
Lefties? It's the usefools on the right wing who oppose it. At least in my country and the US.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ac130kz 2y ago
  I don't see them as right wing really, they act the exact opposite of what they should do. There are no rapid actions performed, every bit is very slow and delayed.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  There is a loud faction rhetorically on the “Left” that does too, though they don’t have any allies in office; their main role is trying to pull the left electorate away from Biden and the Democrats to third parties in the election, so that Trump and the GOP will win.
deadbolt 2y ago
Which 'lefties' in congress have been holding up additional aid to Ukraine?
- ac130kz 2y ago
  The entire congress itself has been holding back budget actions, including aid to Ukraine this year. The lend lease act has started May 2022, when it was too late to punch back hard. It ended in Q3 2023 without bringing tanks, pcs on time in 2022.
- denton-scratch 2y ago
  There are no "lefties" in Congress. Here in the UK, there is definitely a community of vocal old-skool commies that I would refer to as "tankies". George Galloway is probably the most notable tankie politician (recently elected to Parliament). Galloway is famous for his grovelling address to Saddam Hussein: "I salute your [...] indefatigability."

ransom1538 2y ago

Ukraine is literally banned by the US from using US ordinance in RU. But at this point, Ukraine better break some rules.

squidbeak 2y ago
Ukraine needs to be able to use its western supplied longer range weapons against the airbases these sorties are launched from.

13415 2y ago

Intentionally targeting civilian areas with those bombs is a war crime. Ukraine avoids committing war crimes, Russia has committed many of them. There will be charges against Russia. There is even some evidence that Russia commits genocide: forced kidnapping of children, forced reeducation, some ethnic cleansing with deportations (though not very systematic), mass killings of civilians, and public speeches by government officials who deny Ukraine a right to exist and therefore can serve as proof of intent.

reese_john 2y ago

There is now the GLSDB (Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb) which is supposed to be a cheap, longish-range (~ 150 km) guided bomb built on top of the GBU-39 platform. It was developed by Boeing and Saab. Ukraine has had it since earlier this year. Apparently, it is not being as effective as one would've hoped though due to heavy Russian GPS jamming [1] [0] https://www.saab.com/products/ground-launched-small-diameter-bomb-glsdb https://www.saab.com/products/ground-launched-small-diameter... [1] https://www.twz.com/land/have-ground-launched-small-diameter-bombs-been-thrown-aside-by-ukraine https://www.twz.com/land/have-ground-launched-small-diameter...

dragonwriter 2y ago
GLSDB is, as the “Ground Launched” indicates, not the same thing as an aerial glide bomb, but is instead a warhead for GMLRS rockets fired from launchers like the HIMARS.’ EDIT: OTOH, its based on the SDB, which is a (small, 250lb) glide bomb with decent (40km) range whichthe US has currently only integrated the on the F-15E Strike Eagle, which Ukraine doesn’t have. There’s a long list of other potential future carriers envisioned by the US (including the F-16, which Ukraine will soon be operating), and integrating Western weapons with Soviet-design aircraft has been happening a fair amount in Ukraine, so if the problems affecting GLSDB were solved, SDB would be a real possibility for them, as well.

surfingdino 2y ago

Different approach to waging war. The West is focused on disabling military targets, Russians wage total war without distinction between military and civilian targets. Therefore, Western weapons only need to destroy a rocket launcher vehicle, Russians are ok with pulverising the whole village around it. Details like war crimes are not really a thing they loose sleep over. They have gotten away with so many why would they care now?

donottell 2y ago
[dead]
hsyehbeidhh 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- me_me_me 2y ago
  Just go back and look at the chechen war. Russia tried to fight like a modern military only to go back to artillery and leveling cities to the ground. Thats all they ever did, brute force
  - hsyehbeidhh 2y ago
    But that may also be way of waging war. In fact, the US did the same on Bagadad. Why you lamenting that? I don't understand it. Are you complaining that they may not be following the Geneva Convention's rule? How about Gitmo? There are no rules. The only apparent rules are those that are pushed louder by the media propaganda. As the West currently excels in that, you have the impression that those are the rules. But they would change them quickly and feed you some other "rules" if those would not suit them equally well. And most of the "war crimes" they fed you probably never happen. Lies, lies, lies. The only different you can make to your life is whether you are going to believe them or question them. After Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libia, and Syria, you still believe them? Have they brainwashed you so badly?

denton-scratch 2y ago

They're bombs; you're supposed to drop them from a plane. Ukraine isn't doing a lot of military aviation just now.

dragonwriter 2y ago

> What’s stopping Ukraine and its allies from building these? Ukraine and its allies have much smaller stores of large, outdated dumb bombs to refit, and Ukraine has a much smaller Air Force with which to deploy them, so it makes little sense for Ukraine and its allies to build this particular solution (the West has purpose developed – or already modified – glide bombs, but, again, Ukraine’s smaller air force and not having the exact planes on which those are integrate is a bit of a barrier, though the second part is relatively easily overcome.) > Let’s say you start pounding blocks down in the major cities in southwest Russia and see how they feel after that Neither Ukraine nor, even moreso, its allies are interested in pounding city blocks in Southwest Russia indiscriminately. OTOH, military bases, oil infrastructure, etc. are a bit of a different story, but they are finding ways to do that without glide bombs.

f38zf5vdt 2y ago
> Ukraine and its allies have much smaller stores of large, outdated dumb bombs to refit, Unlikely, the US still has a lot (hundreds of thousands) of dumb bombs. As you said, they don't have a good delivery platform until the F-16s get there. The US orders 20-30k JDAM kits _per year_.