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Julian Jaynes theory of consciousness is very interesting. At a high level, his thoery was that consciousness is A) much smaller in scope as far as what it actu

Julian Jaynes theory of consciousness is very interesting. At a high level, his thoery was that consciousness is A) much smaller in scope as far as what it actually is than a lot of people like to think, and B) it is not actually innate in humans, it is something we learn as we grow.

CuriouslyC 2y ago
I don't see how we can learn to experience qualia. If the author means self awareness instead of consciousness that would make more sense.
- amelius 2y ago
  I wish the scientific community would get the terminology straight.
  - yehabut 2y ago
    “Right” based upon whose consciousness? People in Georgia use language differently than people in Washington State. People need to read more Camus and Freire and consider the extent to which relativity applies.
- photonthug 2y ago
  any art or music class that is successful in reaching its students will probably change what you think, how you think it, and gradually should change what you feel, how deeply you feel it, and to what extent you can analyze and converse with those feelings you have. If that sounds like intellectual activity above the level of qualia, the same is true for something as simple as the taste of food. We learn what apples taste like by tasting lots of apples and tasting things that aren’t apples and reflecting on and focusing our attention on experience of apples.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - CuriouslyC 2y ago
    I think learning to mentally analyze sensations that are complex into components doesn't refute what I said, as you are presupposing the ability to perceive for that process to take place. I don't think an art class is going to revive a philosophical zombie.
- joeyo 2y ago
  I think language acquisition provides a pretty compelling example of learning affecting the experience of qualia. When someone is learning to speak a foreign language, there is often an period where certain sounds are difficult for the learner to produce, because those sounds are not present or are not distinguished in the learner's native tongue. For example, the R and L sounds of English are tricky for a native Japanese speaker. A reason it's so hard to learn to produce these novel sounds, I would argue, is because the learner literally cannot hear the differences at first. It's only after learning (i.e. when the qualia starts to change) that production of the new sounds becomes possible. One can think of other similar examples in the context of expert performance: a sonar operator can hear sounds in his headphones that most (at first) cannot; an artist can distinguish colors that the novice cannot, etc. If you buy this argument, that learning can affect perception/qualia, then it's a fairly small leap to imagine how qualia itself might also be learned ex nihilo.
  - andrewflnr 2y ago
    That's an example of learning changing which qualia you experience, not teaching you to experience qualia at all. Almost unrelated question.
belter 2y ago
That is particularly interesting specially in the context of the ways we know the human brain works. For example in Automatic writing, patients with neurological damage, can write coherent text without conscious awareness of the content. Or in cases of Aphasia where individuals can sing lyrics without consciously understanding the meaning of the words. And finally...who never, when particularly tired or worried with something, left home, lost in their own thoughts, and in a fog...drove to work...just to realize when arriving its weekend? ;-)
- _heimdall 2y ago
  > Or in cases of Aphasia where individuals can sing lyrics without consciously understanding the meaning of the words. Hah, well maybe I have aphasia then. My whole life I've heard and even remembered lyrics while a singing along with the radio but if you asked me immediately after the song was over I couldn't tell you the words or the meaning. I hear the music being played and the sounds of the lyrics, but unless I'm trying to pay attention to the words I just completely miss them.
  - fuzzfactor 2y ago
    You're being "prompted" by the radio, in real time to boot. Only when you want to, that would be a "conscious" effort, maybe not too easily emulated.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

CuriouslyC 2y ago

I don't see how we can learn to experience qualia. If the author means self awareness instead of consciousness that would make more sense.

amelius 2y ago
I wish the scientific community would get the terminology straight.
- yehabut 2y ago
  “Right” based upon whose consciousness? People in Georgia use language differently than people in Washington State. People need to read more Camus and Freire and consider the extent to which relativity applies.
photonthug 2y ago
any art or music class that is successful in reaching its students will probably change what you think, how you think it, and gradually should change what you feel, how deeply you feel it, and to what extent you can analyze and converse with those feelings you have. If that sounds like intellectual activity above the level of qualia, the same is true for something as simple as the taste of food. We learn what apples taste like by tasting lots of apples and tasting things that aren’t apples and reflecting on and focusing our attention on experience of apples.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- CuriouslyC 2y ago
  I think learning to mentally analyze sensations that are complex into components doesn't refute what I said, as you are presupposing the ability to perceive for that process to take place. I don't think an art class is going to revive a philosophical zombie.
joeyo 2y ago
I think language acquisition provides a pretty compelling example of learning affecting the experience of qualia. When someone is learning to speak a foreign language, there is often an period where certain sounds are difficult for the learner to produce, because those sounds are not present or are not distinguished in the learner's native tongue. For example, the R and L sounds of English are tricky for a native Japanese speaker. A reason it's so hard to learn to produce these novel sounds, I would argue, is because the learner literally cannot hear the differences at first. It's only after learning (i.e. when the qualia starts to change) that production of the new sounds becomes possible. One can think of other similar examples in the context of expert performance: a sonar operator can hear sounds in his headphones that most (at first) cannot; an artist can distinguish colors that the novice cannot, etc. If you buy this argument, that learning can affect perception/qualia, then it's a fairly small leap to imagine how qualia itself might also be learned ex nihilo.
- andrewflnr 2y ago
  That's an example of learning changing which qualia you experience, not teaching you to experience qualia at all. Almost unrelated question.

belter 2y ago

That is particularly interesting specially in the context of the ways we know the human brain works. For example in Automatic writing, patients with neurological damage, can write coherent text without conscious awareness of the content. Or in cases of Aphasia where individuals can sing lyrics without consciously understanding the meaning of the words. And finally...who never, when particularly tired or worried with something, left home, lost in their own thoughts, and in a fog...drove to work...just to realize when arriving its weekend? ;-)

_heimdall 2y ago
> Or in cases of Aphasia where individuals can sing lyrics without consciously understanding the meaning of the words. Hah, well maybe I have aphasia then. My whole life I've heard and even remembered lyrics while a singing along with the radio but if you asked me immediately after the song was over I couldn't tell you the words or the meaning. I hear the music being played and the sounds of the lyrics, but unless I'm trying to pay attention to the words I just completely miss them.
- fuzzfactor 2y ago
  You're being "prompted" by the radio, in real time to boot. Only when you want to, that would be a "conscious" effort, maybe not too easily emulated.
deleted 2y ago
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