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So far, the concept of consciousness is basically metaphysics. It doesn't have a role, it can't be measured... If I may suggest a starting point to get over thi

So far, the concept of consciousness is basically metaphysics. It doesn't have a role, it can't be measured... If I may suggest a starting point to get over this hurdle: let's create a "consciousness captcha": some task that is easy for conscious beings, but hard for algorithms. Consciousness evolved, therefore it must have provided an advantage. We just have to find it.

neverokay 2y ago
Aren’t these things supposed to do automatic feature detection? Wouldn’t these models figure out consciousness as some hidden layer over time?
V__ 2y ago
> Consciousness evolved, therefore it must have provided an advantage This is also my personal belief, but frankly, consciousness might just as well be some emergent 'side-product' property in all 'higher' intelligent beings.
- visarga 2y ago
  The advantage of consciousness is that it protects the body. Consciousness is the inner loop, evolution is the outer loop of life. The goal of consciousness is tied to its survival.
golf_mike 2y ago
How is that different from a turing test?
dist-epoch 2y ago
> It doesn't have a role ... Consciousness evolved, therefore it must have provided an advantage. We just have to find it. That's a pretty wild claim, considering that the only animal proven to have a consciousness is the apex-predator of the whole world.
- IshKebab 2y ago
  It's a pretty out-there idea that we're the only conscious animals. Along the lines of "animals don't have feelings" which seems to be mostly pushed by Christians.
  - dist-epoch 2y ago
    I didn't say we're the only one. But that we are the one we know for a fact are conscious.
    - groestl 2y ago
      I know only for a fact that I'm conscious ;)
  - anon291 2y ago
    > Along the lines of "animals don't have feelings" which seems to be mostly pushed by Christians. Can you provide any source for this claim? The historical Christian belief is that animals have souls and feelings and inner experiences.
    - IshKebab 2y ago
      It stems from the belief that only humans have a soul. Here's an example: https://www.christianforums.com/threads/animals-dont-have-feelings.78809 https://www.christianforums.com/threads/animals-dont-have-fe... I think that view has changed a lot over the last few decades but certainly 30 years ago it was pretty common.
      - anon291 2y ago
        This is not a Christian belief, Augustine and Aquinas (among others) openly believed animals, plants, even stones, had souls. A lot of mistakes regarding Christian theology is people mistaking something they heard '30 years ago' with a millennia old religion
QuadmasterXLII 2y ago
This is a puzzle with a known solution, although we have obviously not found an algorithm that passes. Casually isolate the being/algorithm from known conscious beings, put it with a bunch of its friends instead, and see if it starts arguing with them about qualia. This will of course require creating an AI self-training algorithm strong enough to invent language independently (otherwise you get LLMs which are likely parotting human arguments about qualia), but it shouldn't require that much compute compared to training and running an AGI for other tasks- humans invent language when you put 30 children together for 30 years (see Nicaraguan Sign Language). This highlights that we have no idea how to train a transformer such that 30 copies of it left on a minecraft server and started from random weights would begin to meaningfully communicate . On the other hand, if 400B parameter versions of openAI's hide and seek AI start arguing with each other about whether ramps are really phlornge or if phlornge is just a property in their heads, we aught to believe that they have qualia.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  This might be sufficient, but it wouldn't be necessary. A lot of humans (though not all) believe that at least some mammals, like dogs or chimps, are conscious, though we know for a fact that they don't discuss their qualia.
  - QuadmasterXLII 2y ago
    Definitely not necessary. I have no idea how to define a measurable result that is necessary for consciousness, but a thought experiment with a physically measurable outcome that is sufficient proves that consciousness can inpact the material world
bondarchuk 2y ago
You're talking about it right now in the physical world, though.

neverokay 2y ago

Aren’t these things supposed to do automatic feature detection? Wouldn’t these models figure out consciousness as some hidden layer over time?

V__ 2y ago

> Consciousness evolved, therefore it must have provided an advantage This is also my personal belief, but frankly, consciousness might just as well be some emergent 'side-product' property in all 'higher' intelligent beings.

visarga 2y ago
The advantage of consciousness is that it protects the body. Consciousness is the inner loop, evolution is the outer loop of life. The goal of consciousness is tied to its survival.

golf_mike 2y ago

How is that different from a turing test?

dist-epoch 2y ago

> It doesn't have a role ... Consciousness evolved, therefore it must have provided an advantage. We just have to find it. That's a pretty wild claim, considering that the only animal proven to have a consciousness is the apex-predator of the whole world.

IshKebab 2y ago
It's a pretty out-there idea that we're the only conscious animals. Along the lines of "animals don't have feelings" which seems to be mostly pushed by Christians.
- dist-epoch 2y ago
  I didn't say we're the only one. But that we are the one we know for a fact are conscious.
  - groestl 2y ago
    I know only for a fact that I'm conscious ;)
- anon291 2y ago
  > Along the lines of "animals don't have feelings" which seems to be mostly pushed by Christians. Can you provide any source for this claim? The historical Christian belief is that animals have souls and feelings and inner experiences.
  - IshKebab 2y ago
    It stems from the belief that only humans have a soul. Here's an example: https://www.christianforums.com/threads/animals-dont-have-feelings.78809 https://www.christianforums.com/threads/animals-dont-have-fe... I think that view has changed a lot over the last few decades but certainly 30 years ago it was pretty common.
    - anon291 2y ago
      This is not a Christian belief, Augustine and Aquinas (among others) openly believed animals, plants, even stones, had souls. A lot of mistakes regarding Christian theology is people mistaking something they heard '30 years ago' with a millennia old religion

QuadmasterXLII 2y ago

This is a puzzle with a known solution, although we have obviously not found an algorithm that passes. Casually isolate the being/algorithm from known conscious beings, put it with a bunch of its friends instead, and see if it starts arguing with them about qualia. This will of course require creating an AI self-training algorithm strong enough to invent language independently (otherwise you get LLMs which are likely parotting human arguments about qualia), but it shouldn't require that much compute compared to training and running an AGI for other tasks- humans invent language when you put 30 children together for 30 years (see Nicaraguan Sign Language). This highlights that we have no idea how to train a transformer such that 30 copies of it left on a minecraft server and started from random weights would begin to meaningfully communicate . On the other hand, if 400B parameter versions of openAI's hide and seek AI start arguing with each other about whether ramps are really phlornge or if phlornge is just a property in their heads, we aught to believe that they have qualia.

tsimionescu 2y ago
This might be sufficient, but it wouldn't be necessary. A lot of humans (though not all) believe that at least some mammals, like dogs or chimps, are conscious, though we know for a fact that they don't discuss their qualia.
- QuadmasterXLII 2y ago
  Definitely not necessary. I have no idea how to define a measurable result that is necessary for consciousness, but a thought experiment with a physically measurable outcome that is sufficient proves that consciousness can inpact the material world

bondarchuk 2y ago

You're talking about it right now in the physical world, though.