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I might've been a rocket scientist (like my dad), but I was a girl
- yawpitch 2y agoSadly the headline implies that she didn’t get into rocket science because she’s a girl, but then the article goes on to make it clear that the main thing that kept her from rocket science was her father being Mormon && her being a girl. While all the women quoted within would absolutely have had systemic gradients acting against their access to STEM careers outside the LDS church, within it those gradients are nearly vertical, and are so by founder effect design and persistent and careful maintenance.
- telesilla 2y agoI agree, the headline should mention the Mormon factor.
- vermooten 2y ago[flagged]
- Joeboy 2y agoThe article appears on "A feminist space for women and gender minorities across the Mormon spectrum". In which context, mentioning the Mormon factor would seem redundant. In the context of HN, it would be a more useful piece of information, but IIUC the policy is to favour the original headline.
- yawpitch 2y agoHence why that context needs to be added here, in the comments below the original headline. Within the reading context of that site any mention of the elephant in the room is, obviously, redundant, but this is a very different room with very different elephants.
- Aeolun 2y agoI think that was implied? The only reason stuff like this happens is because the surroundings make it so.
- gghhjjy 2y agoSo the takeaway is that Mormon teachings caused her to forego what might have been an extremely successful career by staying home full time with her children. Having children has a huge impact on many people’s lives. Are Mormon women far more likely than the general population to stop working after children? My hunch is that they’re probably slightly more likely to stop working, without a huge statistical disparity. But we need this statistic to have a productive conversation on the subject instead of just stereotyping an entire ethnoreligious minority group based on one personal anecdote.
- yawpitch 2y agoAhh, the “we need more data before we can discuss the self-evident” feint. That article isn’t merely one personal anecdote, it includes numerous personal anecdotes from other women within the same religious group — not ethnoreligious, Mormonism is not an ethnicity — as well as direct quotes from that religion’s “prophet” that expressly directs his female followers to forgo careers in favor of baby-making. When the members of the religion, the leaders of that religion, and the doctrine of that religion all agree on the goal being to override your hunch and create an effect, your hunch can be discarded until you gather data that shows no such effect. We can certainly discuss the effect the religion publicly desires and advocates for (and has done since its founding) without stereotyping anyone.
- andrewstuart 2y ago42 is not too old to become an engineer or computer programmer or whatever. Don't let ageism be the next barrier after sexism and religion and the expectations of others. No-one can stop you doing what you want to do. Many careers require others to give you the chance to practice your chosen career - not computing - start learning and doing it. Start now, do it.
- lupusreal 2y agoIf it's anything like learning a second language, then old people can sometimes successfully do it but the odds of success are a lot better for younger people.
- andrewstuart 2y ago>> old people can sometimes successfully do it but the odds of success are a lot better for younger people. Yeah that's garbage. The whole point of the original post is this woman has been fed a bunch of discriminatory sexist bullshit about what women can and cannot do. And now you jump in to tell us your discriminatory lies about what young people versus older people can do. You can take your ageism and discrimination elsewhere.
- Aeolun 2y agoI mean, I'm 36. Motivating myself to learn new shit at this point is getting harder and harder. Extensions of what I already know? Sure, but entirely new things?
- lupusreal 2y agoThe relationship between language acquisition and age is well studied and widely acknowledged by both the scientific community and the general population. Your characterization of this relationship as "discriminatory lies" is both a violation of this website's commenting policies and flatly absurd.
- gghhjjy 2y ago[flagged]
- sneak 2y agoHN is very US-centric, owing to the location of Silly Valley and big tech. Utah, LDS central, is right on the other side of Nevada from California, and California and the Bay Area is the nearest interesting/fun place for those fleeing SLC. It makes sense.
- lupusreal 2y agoThere are about as many Muslims as Mormons living in California and San Francisco. Both are about 1% of each. That makes them about as rare as Eastern Orthodox, who I rarely hear anything about, half as common as Hindus, ten times less common than Evangelical Protestants in San Francisco... I think it's fair to say that HN has a minor obsession with Mormons that cannot be explained merely by their prevalence in Silicon Valley. (For what it's worth, I am an atheist and have no Mormons in my family.)
- playingalong 2y agoIn absolute numbers they might be the same. Not being American myself, my hunch is that the Mormons in CA might be well established, subsocieties with long traditions. And the Muslim people might have more of single first-generation immigrants.
- lupusreal 2y agoMy hunch is there are more of those first generation Muslim immigrants working in the CA tech industry than there are Mormons, but I don't have data on that either way.
- relaxing 2y agoMormons are organized as a political and economic force in nearby Utah, hence the interest. They also try to wield power outside the church, as when they funded CA Prop. 8 and AZ Prop. 102, nationwide political campaigns, etc. If you want to see HN address Muslim issues in the US, search “Sharia”.
- thinkski 2y agoIt’s interesting, the grass is perhaps greener on the other side. My wife is planning on staying home with the kids when we have our second, and there’s a part of me that envy’s that freedom from worry on having to provide, being able to spend hours with our daughter while I may get a couple hours a night, our daughter is much closer to her mom already. In twenty years, the software I’ve written will likely have been long replaced — the bond invested in our children will be there forever.
- rijoja 2y agoYeah but if women go to work, the amount of available workers will more or less double, so if you where to apply the theory of supply and demand you'll find that this will make wages decrease, which is very good for extremely rich people ...
- m1n7 2y agojust that the problem there is not with women working, but missing regulation. you shouldn't have to spend half your income on rent.
- gghhjjy 2y ago[flagged]
- geraldwhen 2y agoMost people aren’t rockstars. Most of us are cogs in a big wheel meant to grind us all into meat. Aspiring to be a middle manager at an F500 is the saddest dream imaginable, and yet it’s a lie sold to girls that it’s so much more rewarding than motherhood. It’s not. Most jobs are pointless. If you don’t have to, don’t waste your life make someone else money.
- gghhjjy 2y agoI agree. I’m being facetious.
- 2y ago
- politelemon 2y agoI appreciate this being shared for the perspective. Despite the advances we've made in some places, it's always worth being reminded that the progress isn't universal and there are still cultural, religious, and traditional institutions in place that keep holding us back. Towards the end the author says that "I hope the next generation of girls can forge a different path than mine was able to." and to that my first thought was, the only way to do it is to help pushing them along and getting involved in promoting the sciences to the next generation. This blog post is one of them.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- roenxi 2y agoSome interesting context to consider with stories like this one are that the overall (global!) picture is sub-replacement fertility. That suggests we're going to see a big realignment where parents tend to come from cultures that promote children as it is hard to see why they wouldn't just outbreed everyone else. I'm a little sad that I might not be around to see the results, but I assume the winner will be one of (1) a cultural approached like what the article describes, (2) renegotiating the social contract between men and women or (3) just people just having a really strong instinct to have children.
- RetroTechie 2y ago(2) It's known that generally, as a nation becomes more wealthy (and socially/technologically advanced), fertility tends to drop. Well-off populations have fewer kids. As you wrote: the vast majority of countries have already passed this point, or are heading there. That implies there's fewer kids to care for. And thus fewer stay-at-home parents needed. Even if classical gender roles stay the same. What will those now-not-parenting people do? All else the same, logical expectation: a large % of them adding themselves to the job market. Ok there's also smaller families. But juggling 1 kid & (parttime?) job is still easier than doing same with say 3..5 kids. In short: countries moving up the wealth/development ladder will logically cause traditional gender roles to shift. Probably no coincidence that it's usually less-developed countries where women are forced into traditional roles.
- pquki4 2y agoWhen I was reading the title and I was wondering if this happened many decades ago when social norms/expectations were very different and gender discrimination was much worse. Turns out this woman is only a few years older than me, and in her time college/career isn't that much different from mine -- except the Mormon factor. The context here matters a lot. (And I imagine even among Mormons, people take it differently and prioritize their career differently -- but no use saying that now.)
- II2II 2y agoThere has been a lot of focus on the religion angle in the comments thus far. I think those are looking at Abby's story the wrong way. First and foremost, Abby told her own story. She could have told a more abstract tale, by focusing upon the message rather than the messenger and (better) incorporating the message being delivered to other women, but then it would not be her story. There are reasons why Abby telling her story is important. One is that in telling the story of everyone, of mixing experiences or of calculating statistical means, we end up telling the tale of no one. Those abstracted tales are valuable. They give us a better picture of the whole. On the other hand, they are also more difficult to relate to. You don't have to be a Mormon[1] to relate to Abby's story. You don't even have to be a woman, though men are likely to pull out a different moral. You simply have to be a person who has faced similar challenges. [1] It is also worth noting that the site is directed towards Mormon women and gender minorities. See: https://exponentii.org/about-us/ https://exponentii.org/about-us/
- SeanLuke 2y agoIt's worth mentioning that Ezra Taft Benson, the prophet referred to in the article, was president of the Church from 1985 to 1994. He was far and away the most conservative church president of the last 50 years, and later church presidents have been much more moderate in their teachings.
- dachworker 2y agoMeanwhile, I meet lots of women at my place of work who come from Indian, Iranian, Turkish, Arab, Hindu and Muslim backgrounds, which are all cultures that are constantly accused of being sexist in the western media. And yet these women seem to have no issues living alone abroad and pursuing a STEM career.
- senorrib 2y agoIs generally not a good idea to extrapolate anecdotal evidence as fact. These individual women you know might have had “no problem”, and still these be sexist societies.
- Ar-Curunir 2y agoIndeed, India has plenty of misogyny (you only need to look at our history of female infanticide), but also is much more open to women studying the sciences. Of course, whether or not they go on to pursue a career is a different matter, but amongst the more urban/educated class of India, it is perfectly acceptable for women to have a successful scientific career. In my own field of cryptography, many top Indian cryptographers are women.
- withinboredom 2y agoYes, but what did they sacrifice to get there?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- elcritch 2y agoThere was a study a while back which I recall finding that the more equal the society the less likely women were to pursue STEM careers. The places you listed had higher rates of women in STEM fields.
- croes 2y agoWhat's the reason for a career abroad and not at home?
- indigo0086 2y ago>I probably had the smartest dad in the room and the best DNA for engineering, but I barely participated because I was convinced engineering was for boys. Despite your "dna" your personality and preferences can override decisions you believe are somehow preordained in your genetics. Girls don't make "good engineers". Good engineers make good engineers and it often appears very early in life that they show an affinity for that kind of work
- readthenotes1 2y agoA girlfriend in high school told my dad that she was planning on becoming a mechanical engineer. She was driving her dad's car and he asked her what kind of engine was in it. She had no idea. I don't think my dad was being sexist and believing that she did not have a bent for engineering. I'm not sure what she did after college, but failed out of her first choice with too much partying and too low test grades
- Aeolun 2y agoIt's so strange to read this, as I had an almost completely opposite experience growing up in the Netherlands. Even though my family is ostensibly Catholic, and the church sort of pushes traditional values, they're no match for the public schooling telling all kids that girls are just as good as boys at everything. Sure, preferences exist, but jobs are not girl or boy specific. University is just as accessible to either, and after marriage you're both expected to share the load. I just didn't know any better. I thought it was the same everywhere. In hindsight it was strange, because my aunts and mother were all stay at home moms. I just never had that expectation for my future wife. Sure, due to the cost of childcare I expected either me or her to stay at home, because it just made more financial sense, but I like to think I'd have been perfectly happy with either. Then I moved to Japan, and things couldn't be more different. Traditional roles are heavily emphasized here, even if it's not motivated by religion. I'll go to some event with my child, and I'll just be the sole dad surrounded by mothers (on a Sunday!). Like, I dunno what all the fathers here are supposed to be doing. My wife doesn't really like her job, and fantasizes about quitting and just becoming stay at home, but every time I ask her if she'd actually be happier sitting around all day playing with our son she very quickly reconsiders. I think it's both good for him to play with lots of different kids in kindergarden, and for mom to have some time to do adult things during work. Since kindergarden is free here it's also pure extra money.
- n4r9 2y agoStrongly reminiscent of the British 70's folk song "I'm gonna be an engineer" by Peggy Seeger: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8IGVxBb5uYk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8IGVxBb5uYk We didn't need religion to quash women's ambitions back in the day!