6 ms·

From the article: "The researchers also applied their technique to three-millimeter cubes of brain tissue from a 9-month-old girl with epilepsy. The tissue main

by a-r-t 2y ago

From the article: "The researchers also applied their technique to three-millimeter cubes of brain tissue from a 9-month-old girl with epilepsy. The tissue maintained its pre-freezing structure and remained active in a laboratory culture for at least two weeks after being thawed."

Waterluvian 2y ago
> and remained active in a laboratory culture for at least two weeks after being thawed I’m sure I don’t fully understand the details but this kind of thing both excites and horrifies me when I ponder how much brain might be necessary to sustain the experience of consciousness.
- lallysingh 2y ago
  Meh. If we want immorality we'll probably end up converting a brain scan to an LLM. Medically this could be great for preventing brain damage.
  - Waterluvian 2y ago
    At this point it feels like we’d required the resources of an entire planet to run a single full-fidelity virtual brain. Which leads to interesting science fiction premises.
    - hateful 2y ago
      Or one entire actual brain - if it can be done once by natural selection, it can be done more efficiently again by a designer. Time exists because the universe doesn't do calculations - the only way to see the outcome is to do the thing. See: The Three Body Problem
      - hateful 2y ago
        See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40508705 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40508705
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Last I heard (I am not a brain scientist) we don't really know what fidelity we would need. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading#/media/File:Whole_brain_emulation.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading#/media/File:Who...
  - wonderwonder 2y ago
    I think OP means how do we know that the brain tissue that is being used in the experiment is not conscious. Here is a man that lived a normal life with 90% of his brain damaged, a large portion of that just completely missing. https://www.sciencealert.com/a-man-who-lives-without-90-of-his-brain-is-challenging-our-understanding-of-consciousness https://www.sciencealert.com/a-man-who-lives-without-90-of-h...
    - scarmig 2y ago
      Network pruning. In ANNs, pruning 90% of the weights without substantial loss isn't unheard of. I guess this may be analogous: continuous pruning and fine tuning over a lifetime. Though, is removing 90% of the brain more analogous to 90% of weights, or 90% of the rank?
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Sneaky paragraph at the bottom: > Update 3 Jan 2017: This man has a specific type of hydrocephalus known as chronic non-communicating hydrocephalus, which is where fluid slowly builds up in the brain. Rather than 90 percent of this man's brain being missing, it's more likely that it's simply been compressed into the thin layer you can see in the images above. We've corrected the story to reflect this.
      - wonderwonder 2y ago
        I did not see that actually, thank you. The fact our brain can be compressed to that level is pretty crazy too, although not as impressive as the original missing 90% :)
        ben_w 2y ago
        You're welcome :) I very nearly missed it on that page, despite already being aware of the detail from other sources.
  - Culonavirus 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - zamalek 2y ago
    ANNs can't represent everything involved with a functioning brain, never mind a highly specific ANN architecture. Any consciousness or similar would need to arise via an independent mechanism.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      > Any consciousness or similar would need to arise via an independent mechanism. Probably, but even then only due to there being a lot mechanisms and we don't know which of them is related to the subjective experience of existing that is the meaning of conscious I assume you're using here (there's something like 40 definitions of "consciousness"). But because we don't really know where the capacity for an inner experience even is, it's not impossible that even an LLM, which totally isn't designed with the goal of having it, might nevertheless have it. (I really hope they don't, I statistically suspect they don't, I just can't rule it out).
      - DennisP 2y ago
        It's not impossible that rocks have consciousness. Some modern philosophers advocating pantheism think they just might. Meanwhile, according to Sabine Hossenfelder, a recent paper shows evidence that Penrose was right about quantum effects happening in the brain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6G1D2UQ3gg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6G1D2UQ3gg
        Nevermark 2y ago
        > Some modern philosophers advocating pantheism think they just might. This is a terribly low bar. The map of “ Some modern philosophers” “think [something] just might” [something] is an incoherent patchwork. I think that theorizing about things without hard evidence has value. What-if’s teach us a lot, by raising important questions, and keep our ideas flexible, preparing us for the next crazy insight that nature reveals. But that isn’t the same as attributing any reliability to the as yet unproven enthusiasms of philosophers. There is a clear case for a survival benefit for creatures whose awareness and control extends into their own thinking. Thus a reason consciousness would be one of many strategies evolution may produce. What natural phenomena is explained by a conscious rock hypothesis? What would cause a rock to organize in such a way? Where is this information about itself encoded and experienced in a rock? It’s not a coherent conjecture.
- lisper 2y ago
  My personal opinion is that it's not just about brain quantity. I think being embedded in an environment is necessary for consciousness. My argument is that there is no such thing as unqualified consciousness -- you have to be conscious of something. You're not born aware of yourself, you spend the first few years of your life figuring out that you are embedded in this thing called a human body that, with considerable practice, you can exercise more-or-less direct control over. After more years you figure out that your body is further embedded in a world full of other things that you have only indirect (at best) control over, or no control at all. Only after all that can you draw a line between you and not-you and become aware of "your" existence.
  - osigurdson 2y ago
    The brain is not constant during this process however. It is developing at the same time.
    - lisper 2y ago
      Yes, well, that is one of the many reasons I hedged with "My personal opinion is..."
      - osigurdson 2y ago
        Is your opinion immutable?
  - strogonoff 2y ago
    I would not equate self-awareness with the feeling of being enclosed in some distinct thing called a human body that you can exercise control over. With the latter you are not just self-aware, you are also deconstructing experience into parts according to a particular dualistic approach (“that is my body, this is me”). Such deconstruction may not be required, and whether it is the only or even the best approach to qualifying own being is dubious (some might say you and your body are the same and implicitly treating “you” as “contained in your brain” is a fallacy—from the perspective of natural sciences a good illustration is probably how gut flora changes, non-brain organ transplantation, and such correlate with shifts in your personality).
- velcrovan 2y ago
  Even the actual entire brain you have right now can't sustain the experience of consciousness during sleep, or while under the influence of sedatives, or during times of sudden trauma.
  - hooverd 2y ago
    Have we even figured out how anesthesia actually works yet?
- dmbche 2y ago
  look into the Portia spider - fun rabbit hole!
  - lucubratory 2y ago
    Have you read "Children of Time" by Adrian Tchaikovsky? Because if not, you absolutely should.
    - dmbche 2y ago
      I know! It's on my list. I heard of it from Peter Watts, in Echopraxia (Blindsight is wonderful as well!)
zaptrem 2y ago
Likely relevant to source of the living brain tissue: “Brain biopsies on 'vulnerable' patients at Mount Sinai set off alarm bells at FDA, documents show” https://www.cea.fr/english/Pages/News/world-premiere-living-brain-imaged-with-unrivaled-clarity-thanks-to-world-most-powerful-MRI-machine.aspx https://www.cea.fr/english/Pages/News/world-premiere-living-...
Atotalnoob 2y ago
A millimeter cube seems large when it comes to a 9 month… Let alone 3… This seems weird that they got this much LIVING brain tissue…
- victorbjorklund 2y ago
  Resective surgery is the most common epilepsy surgery. It involves the removal of a small portion of the brain. The surgeon cuts out brain tissue from the area of the brain where seizures occur. This is usually the site of a tumor, brain injury or malformation https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/epilepsy-surgery/about/pac-20393981 https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/epilepsy-surgery...

by a-r-t 2y ago

Waterluvian 2y ago

> and remained active in a laboratory culture for at least two weeks after being thawed I’m sure I don’t fully understand the details but this kind of thing both excites and horrifies me when I ponder how much brain might be necessary to sustain the experience of consciousness.

lallysingh 2y ago
Meh. If we want immorality we'll probably end up converting a brain scan to an LLM. Medically this could be great for preventing brain damage.
- Waterluvian 2y ago
  At this point it feels like we’d required the resources of an entire planet to run a single full-fidelity virtual brain. Which leads to interesting science fiction premises.
  - hateful 2y ago
    Or one entire actual brain - if it can be done once by natural selection, it can be done more efficiently again by a designer. Time exists because the universe doesn't do calculations - the only way to see the outcome is to do the thing. See: The Three Body Problem
    - hateful 2y ago
      See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40508705 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40508705
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Last I heard (I am not a brain scientist) we don't really know what fidelity we would need. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading#/media/File:Whole_brain_emulation.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading#/media/File:Who...
- wonderwonder 2y ago
  I think OP means how do we know that the brain tissue that is being used in the experiment is not conscious. Here is a man that lived a normal life with 90% of his brain damaged, a large portion of that just completely missing. https://www.sciencealert.com/a-man-who-lives-without-90-of-his-brain-is-challenging-our-understanding-of-consciousness https://www.sciencealert.com/a-man-who-lives-without-90-of-h...
  - scarmig 2y ago
    Network pruning. In ANNs, pruning 90% of the weights without substantial loss isn't unheard of. I guess this may be analogous: continuous pruning and fine tuning over a lifetime. Though, is removing 90% of the brain more analogous to 90% of weights, or 90% of the rank?
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Sneaky paragraph at the bottom: > Update 3 Jan 2017: This man has a specific type of hydrocephalus known as chronic non-communicating hydrocephalus, which is where fluid slowly builds up in the brain. Rather than 90 percent of this man's brain being missing, it's more likely that it's simply been compressed into the thin layer you can see in the images above. We've corrected the story to reflect this.
    - wonderwonder 2y ago
      I did not see that actually, thank you. The fact our brain can be compressed to that level is pretty crazy too, although not as impressive as the original missing 90% :)
      - ben_w 2y ago
        You're welcome :) I very nearly missed it on that page, despite already being aware of the detail from other sources.
- Culonavirus 2y ago
  [flagged]
- zamalek 2y ago
  ANNs can't represent everything involved with a functioning brain, never mind a highly specific ANN architecture. Any consciousness or similar would need to arise via an independent mechanism.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    > Any consciousness or similar would need to arise via an independent mechanism. Probably, but even then only due to there being a lot mechanisms and we don't know which of them is related to the subjective experience of existing that is the meaning of conscious I assume you're using here (there's something like 40 definitions of "consciousness"). But because we don't really know where the capacity for an inner experience even is, it's not impossible that even an LLM, which totally isn't designed with the goal of having it, might nevertheless have it. (I really hope they don't, I statistically suspect they don't, I just can't rule it out).
    - DennisP 2y ago
      It's not impossible that rocks have consciousness. Some modern philosophers advocating pantheism think they just might. Meanwhile, according to Sabine Hossenfelder, a recent paper shows evidence that Penrose was right about quantum effects happening in the brain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6G1D2UQ3gg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6G1D2UQ3gg
      - Nevermark 2y ago
        > Some modern philosophers advocating pantheism think they just might. This is a terribly low bar. The map of “ Some modern philosophers” “think [something] just might” [something] is an incoherent patchwork. I think that theorizing about things without hard evidence has value. What-if’s teach us a lot, by raising important questions, and keep our ideas flexible, preparing us for the next crazy insight that nature reveals. But that isn’t the same as attributing any reliability to the as yet unproven enthusiasms of philosophers. There is a clear case for a survival benefit for creatures whose awareness and control extends into their own thinking. Thus a reason consciousness would be one of many strategies evolution may produce. What natural phenomena is explained by a conscious rock hypothesis? What would cause a rock to organize in such a way? Where is this information about itself encoded and experienced in a rock? It’s not a coherent conjecture.
lisper 2y ago
My personal opinion is that it's not just about brain quantity. I think being embedded in an environment is necessary for consciousness. My argument is that there is no such thing as unqualified consciousness -- you have to be conscious of something. You're not born aware of yourself, you spend the first few years of your life figuring out that you are embedded in this thing called a human body that, with considerable practice, you can exercise more-or-less direct control over. After more years you figure out that your body is further embedded in a world full of other things that you have only indirect (at best) control over, or no control at all. Only after all that can you draw a line between you and not-you and become aware of "your" existence.
- osigurdson 2y ago
  The brain is not constant during this process however. It is developing at the same time.
  - lisper 2y ago
    Yes, well, that is one of the many reasons I hedged with "My personal opinion is..."
    - osigurdson 2y ago
      Is your opinion immutable?
- strogonoff 2y ago
  I would not equate self-awareness with the feeling of being enclosed in some distinct thing called a human body that you can exercise control over. With the latter you are not just self-aware, you are also deconstructing experience into parts according to a particular dualistic approach (“that is my body, this is me”). Such deconstruction may not be required, and whether it is the only or even the best approach to qualifying own being is dubious (some might say you and your body are the same and implicitly treating “you” as “contained in your brain” is a fallacy—from the perspective of natural sciences a good illustration is probably how gut flora changes, non-brain organ transplantation, and such correlate with shifts in your personality).
velcrovan 2y ago
Even the actual entire brain you have right now can't sustain the experience of consciousness during sleep, or while under the influence of sedatives, or during times of sudden trauma.
- hooverd 2y ago
  Have we even figured out how anesthesia actually works yet?
dmbche 2y ago
look into the Portia spider - fun rabbit hole!
- lucubratory 2y ago
  Have you read "Children of Time" by Adrian Tchaikovsky? Because if not, you absolutely should.
  - dmbche 2y ago
    I know! It's on my list. I heard of it from Peter Watts, in Echopraxia (Blindsight is wonderful as well!)

zaptrem 2y ago

Likely relevant to source of the living brain tissue: “Brain biopsies on 'vulnerable' patients at Mount Sinai set off alarm bells at FDA, documents show” https://www.cea.fr/english/Pages/News/world-premiere-living-brain-imaged-with-unrivaled-clarity-thanks-to-world-most-powerful-MRI-machine.aspx https://www.cea.fr/english/Pages/News/world-premiere-living-...

Atotalnoob 2y ago

A millimeter cube seems large when it comes to a 9 month… Let alone 3… This seems weird that they got this much LIVING brain tissue…

victorbjorklund 2y ago
Resective surgery is the most common epilepsy surgery. It involves the removal of a small portion of the brain. The surgeon cuts out brain tissue from the area of the brain where seizures occur. This is usually the site of a tumor, brain injury or malformation https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/epilepsy-surgery/about/pac-20393981 https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/epilepsy-surgery...