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China builds first dedicated drone carrier

66 points by ulrischa 2y ago

RecycledEle 2y ago
When I suggested aircraft carriers dedicated to drones around 2000, I was told it was absurd. I was right.
- prepend 2y ago
  If only President Clinton had listened to you.
  - RecycledEle 2y ago
    It was not POTUS that rejected my ideas. It was DARPA-funded researchers at a university I worked at.
- thefounder 2y ago
  Well I knew that in 1998, immediately after playing StarCraft with Protoss. Too bad I didn’t have the right connection s to sell this precious information to the U.S army
  - sshine 2y ago
    I came to the comment section for this comment.
bethekind 2y ago
Are drones like the reaper easier and cheaper to maintain than normal planes like the f-35? I could easily see USA releasing hybrid ships, with a few jets, but lots of drones
- nradov 2y ago
  Yes, the MQ-9 Reaper is much easier and cheaper to maintain than an F-35. However, there is a huge capability gap to the extent that a Reaper simply can't do many missions at all. It isn't survivable for penetrating strikes, is vulnerable to communications link disruption, lacks an air search radar, can't defend itself against enemy aircraft, flies slower, has a much lower payload, can't do air refueling, can't carry nuclear weapons, etc. It is possible in principle the build a drone with capabilities similar to an F-35 but then it would be almost as expensive to maintain. Having some drone carriers is probably a good idea. They could take over from supercarriers for limited missions, like striking insurgent targets in Yemen. That would be a lot cheaper. LHD class ships could be deployed with an air wing composed of a mix of F-35B jets plus various drones.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    On the other hand, a drone doesn't need to be survivable. If a drone is shot down then all that's lost is a few million tax dollars, unlike a pilot or two if an F-35 or F/A-18 goes down. Drones are an expendable and consumable commodity. A drone designed for aerial combat and dogfighting would also be inherently faster than any manned fighter. It doesn't need to account for the biological limitations of the pilot(s) which are far below the physical limitations of a fighter. With regards to lack of self-sufficiency, no proficiency at aerial tasks (eg: refueling), et al., that's a question of when they will be satisfactorily solved given the continuing advances in computing power and the programs that execute on them.
    - throwoutway 2y ago
      This is where China will win. They can out-produce the United States and withhold the components the US needs to build the swarms. The US needs to wake up that it's supply chain and manufacturing is not self-sufficient and they're dependent on it's future competition (China already calls the US 'the enemy').
      - thefounder 2y ago
        The U.S could do the future war trial in Ukraine. Such a missed opportunity…it’s clear that the heavy weapons packages are not enough. Taking out drones with patriot works against the economics of war.
thriftwy 2y ago
I was thinking, what if Shahed had 10 Lancets to be activated somewhere around the route instead of a single explosive payload? Then it could strike several armoured vehicles at once, deep into the enemy ranks.
zmmmmm 2y ago
it's hard not to forsee a future where entire wars are fought by sending millions of drones at each other. I can't decide if it's a dystopian nightmare or a much better thing than having humans slaughter each other. It's sort of the ultimate conversion of physical war to economic. The side that runs out of money to make more or better drones first will be the loser. Probably optimistic though. I guess each side will always know that humans are the high value targets and that will dictate that whatever else happens they will still target them even if a proxy-war is being fought by the drones.
- csomar 2y ago
  > I guess each side will always know that humans are the high value targets and that will dictate that whatever else happens they will still target them even if a proxy-war is being fought by the drones. Humans are more of an emotional target. Some humans are a high value target, but most are not. It's more valuable to target an oil refinery, an airport or a strategic bridge. The next war will boil down to math. AI powered drones where intelligence and strategy will determine the fate of the war. That is until the other party decide to blow the whole thing with nuclear weapons.
  - imoverclocked 2y ago
    > Humans are more of an emotional target. Some humans are a high value target, but most are not. Tell that to Nagasaki or Hiroshima. Also, tell that to Ukraine. Humans will always be targets at least somewhat; If for nothing else, they are near the controls to some drone. Warfare is psychological at least as much as it is physical.
    - csomar 2y ago
      Nuclear weapons are on a different category. They are not targeting a lot of humans but pretty much all humans; and infrastructure too (strategic or not).
      - pigpang 2y ago
wonderwonder 2y ago
We are rapidly moving towards the science fiction reality of a large plane flying over a city and dropping thousands of small, cheap, autonomous drones. The drones just hunt down all life. Then you just keep the city, infrastructure and all.
- Intralexical 2y ago
  How would these drones deal with people who reside inside buildings which have physically enclosed interior spaces, such as houses, apartments, tenements, or large sheds and tents?
  - themadturk 2y ago
    Unless special preparations are made, city-dwellers have to come out sometime, don't they?
    - Intralexical 2y ago
      I suppose the military will just wait patiently for their citizens to be starved out by quadcopters.
      - wonderwonder 2y ago
        Generally if an enemies large slow military transport plane is flying over your city, your military is already losing.
  - wonderwonder 2y ago
    One suicide explosive drone opens a hole, the next goes into it.
- shostack 2y ago
  When you think about Russia and China and not adhering to international law, you could imagine a total war scenario where they use chemical and biological weapons to do just this. Imagine a drone force deploying over a city at night, dispersing the agents into the air and water. People would never know what hit them.
defrost 2y ago
China has built the world's first dedicated drone carrier. The ship has not been reported however and many of the circumstances surrounding it remain a mystery. I'm pretty sure it was Naval News that reported on this carrier some six to nine months ago and linked to a youtube video showing the carrier and coordinated marine drone swarms. Whichever source it was, the article I read and the youtube were pulled in less than 24 hours and the links I saved (on my other office machine, not to hand ATM) were dead. China developing such things is no surprise, the US military PR side choosing to report then not report for another six months is just as interesting.
FabHK 2y ago
Somewhat related entertaining book recommendation (sci-fi thriller): Kill Decision by Daniel Suarez (from 2012). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Decision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Decision
- krasin 2y ago
  From the same author, I can recommend "Daemon", "Freedom" and "Delta-V" (the first book). Just stay away from "Delta-V" book 2. :)
jacknews 2y ago
"Only China can build an aircraft carrier in relative secrecy." Well if this is indeed supposed to mimic opposition forces, then China knows something that's supposed to be a secret, and the above statement is not (quite) true.
Ajay-p 2y ago
Feels like the book Kill Decision by Daniel Suarez. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Decision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Decision

66 points by ulrischa 2y ago

RecycledEle 2y ago

When I suggested aircraft carriers dedicated to drones around 2000, I was told it was absurd. I was right.

prepend 2y ago
If only President Clinton had listened to you.
- RecycledEle 2y ago
  It was not POTUS that rejected my ideas. It was DARPA-funded researchers at a university I worked at.
thefounder 2y ago
Well I knew that in 1998, immediately after playing StarCraft with Protoss. Too bad I didn’t have the right connection s to sell this precious information to the U.S army
- sshine 2y ago
  I came to the comment section for this comment.

bethekind 2y ago

Are drones like the reaper easier and cheaper to maintain than normal planes like the f-35? I could easily see USA releasing hybrid ships, with a few jets, but lots of drones

nradov 2y ago
Yes, the MQ-9 Reaper is much easier and cheaper to maintain than an F-35. However, there is a huge capability gap to the extent that a Reaper simply can't do many missions at all. It isn't survivable for penetrating strikes, is vulnerable to communications link disruption, lacks an air search radar, can't defend itself against enemy aircraft, flies slower, has a much lower payload, can't do air refueling, can't carry nuclear weapons, etc. It is possible in principle the build a drone with capabilities similar to an F-35 but then it would be almost as expensive to maintain. Having some drone carriers is probably a good idea. They could take over from supercarriers for limited missions, like striking insurgent targets in Yemen. That would be a lot cheaper. LHD class ships could be deployed with an air wing composed of a mix of F-35B jets plus various drones.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  On the other hand, a drone doesn't need to be survivable. If a drone is shot down then all that's lost is a few million tax dollars, unlike a pilot or two if an F-35 or F/A-18 goes down. Drones are an expendable and consumable commodity. A drone designed for aerial combat and dogfighting would also be inherently faster than any manned fighter. It doesn't need to account for the biological limitations of the pilot(s) which are far below the physical limitations of a fighter. With regards to lack of self-sufficiency, no proficiency at aerial tasks (eg: refueling), et al., that's a question of when they will be satisfactorily solved given the continuing advances in computing power and the programs that execute on them.
  - throwoutway 2y ago
    This is where China will win. They can out-produce the United States and withhold the components the US needs to build the swarms. The US needs to wake up that it's supply chain and manufacturing is not self-sufficient and they're dependent on it's future competition (China already calls the US 'the enemy').
    - thefounder 2y ago
      The U.S could do the future war trial in Ukraine. Such a missed opportunity…it’s clear that the heavy weapons packages are not enough. Taking out drones with patriot works against the economics of war.

thriftwy 2y ago

I was thinking, what if Shahed had 10 Lancets to be activated somewhere around the route instead of a single explosive payload? Then it could strike several armoured vehicles at once, deep into the enemy ranks.

zmmmmm 2y ago

it's hard not to forsee a future where entire wars are fought by sending millions of drones at each other. I can't decide if it's a dystopian nightmare or a much better thing than having humans slaughter each other. It's sort of the ultimate conversion of physical war to economic. The side that runs out of money to make more or better drones first will be the loser. Probably optimistic though. I guess each side will always know that humans are the high value targets and that will dictate that whatever else happens they will still target them even if a proxy-war is being fought by the drones.

csomar 2y ago
> I guess each side will always know that humans are the high value targets and that will dictate that whatever else happens they will still target them even if a proxy-war is being fought by the drones. Humans are more of an emotional target. Some humans are a high value target, but most are not. It's more valuable to target an oil refinery, an airport or a strategic bridge. The next war will boil down to math. AI powered drones where intelligence and strategy will determine the fate of the war. That is until the other party decide to blow the whole thing with nuclear weapons.
- imoverclocked 2y ago
  > Humans are more of an emotional target. Some humans are a high value target, but most are not. Tell that to Nagasaki or Hiroshima. Also, tell that to Ukraine. Humans will always be targets at least somewhat; If for nothing else, they are near the controls to some drone. Warfare is psychological at least as much as it is physical.
  - csomar 2y ago
    Nuclear weapons are on a different category. They are not targeting a lot of humans but pretty much all humans; and infrastructure too (strategic or not).
    - pigpang 2y ago

wonderwonder 2y ago

We are rapidly moving towards the science fiction reality of a large plane flying over a city and dropping thousands of small, cheap, autonomous drones. The drones just hunt down all life. Then you just keep the city, infrastructure and all.

Intralexical 2y ago
How would these drones deal with people who reside inside buildings which have physically enclosed interior spaces, such as houses, apartments, tenements, or large sheds and tents?
- themadturk 2y ago
  Unless special preparations are made, city-dwellers have to come out sometime, don't they?
  - Intralexical 2y ago
    I suppose the military will just wait patiently for their citizens to be starved out by quadcopters.
    - wonderwonder 2y ago
      Generally if an enemies large slow military transport plane is flying over your city, your military is already losing.
- wonderwonder 2y ago
  One suicide explosive drone opens a hole, the next goes into it.
shostack 2y ago
When you think about Russia and China and not adhering to international law, you could imagine a total war scenario where they use chemical and biological weapons to do just this. Imagine a drone force deploying over a city at night, dispersing the agents into the air and water. People would never know what hit them.

defrost 2y ago

China has built the world's first dedicated drone carrier. The ship has not been reported however and many of the circumstances surrounding it remain a mystery. I'm pretty sure it was Naval News that reported on this carrier some six to nine months ago and linked to a youtube video showing the carrier and coordinated marine drone swarms. Whichever source it was, the article I read and the youtube were pulled in less than 24 hours and the links I saved (on my other office machine, not to hand ATM) were dead. China developing such things is no surprise, the US military PR side choosing to report then not report for another six months is just as interesting.

FabHK 2y ago

Somewhat related entertaining book recommendation (sci-fi thriller): Kill Decision by Daniel Suarez (from 2012). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Decision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Decision

krasin 2y ago
From the same author, I can recommend "Daemon", "Freedom" and "Delta-V" (the first book). Just stay away from "Delta-V" book 2. :)

jacknews 2y ago

"Only China can build an aircraft carrier in relative secrecy." Well if this is indeed supposed to mimic opposition forces, then China knows something that's supposed to be a secret, and the above statement is not (quite) true.

Ajay-p 2y ago

Feels like the book Kill Decision by Daniel Suarez. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Decision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Decision