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Beekeeper furious over destruction of $2M honey crop
- criddell 2y ago> "The only way to destroy the spores is through burning, so we cannot use antibiotics unlike other countries in the world due to market access," Long said. Market access? What does that mean?
- mikeyouse 2y agoEither nobody will sell it to them (unlikely) or more likely for New Zealand who takes their biosecurity extremely seriously, there's an approval process for agricultural antibiotics to be sold and nobody has completed that process.
- throwaway63467 2y agoThey sell it as organic which precludes use of antibiotics in most developed markets.
- Perz1val 2y agoDoes it? Such vaccines are applied after/before season, bees will eat every bit of honey that may've been affected themselves. Then you put in clean frames for new, fresh honey. I don't know if it can be sold as organic, but it is always separated and the honey never touches any vaccines.
- tialaramex 2y agoI notice that some people here say "vaccine" and some say "antibiotic" those are very different, as different as like bicycle versus jet liner. Is it a vaccine or an antibiotic? There are often EU rules against antibiotics in foods because those antibiotics end up inside the humans eating the food which is unnecessary risk (if the humans need antibiotics we'll prescribe them thanks), and sometimes because this is a sign that you're probably not treating whatever it is that's full of antibiotics very well, that's why it needed antibiotics - so stop doing that.
- bregma 2y agoPaenibacillus larvae is a rod-shaped bacterium, so the treatment is an antibiotic. Most people don't understand the difference between vaccines and antibiotics it's all just doctor stuff.
- Perz1val 2y agoThe article itself is inconsistent. I know the difference, but I am not native and I don't know what that bacteria is. I did assume it is an antibacterial vaccine due to: "Most farmers vaccinate their cows for diseases every single year, but it's illegal to vaccinate the hive".
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Perz1val 2y agoI guess New Zealand has an isolationist policy and they don't want to introduce new chemicals into the environment. Burning probably isn't that huge issue for for small, side hustle beekeepers that have just a few boxes in few different spots. 3000 is an insane amount.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- postingawayonhn 2y agoMost of NZ's agricultural produce is exported. There are probably some export markets that don't approve of the use of these antibiotics (if I was guessing probably the EU).
- rdtsc 2y ago> "The only way to destroy the spores is through burning, so we cannot use antibiotics unlike other countries in the world due to market access “Market access” in NZ presumably means the local government’s law to use burning, not unwillingness of a pharmaceutical company to sell the antibiotic?
- throwaway63467 2y agoI think it means that e.g. in the EU antibiotics use would make them lose their certification as organic producer, which probably makes a large difference financially.
- throwup238 2y agoThat was my first thought too except it’s not organic certification. Anything going to the EU would have to be on the food additive whitelist and be generally recognized as safe in the US, since the antibiotics almost certainly end up in the honey. The penalties for violating that can be pretty severe too. I.e. if one regulator tests and finds the antibiotics, they might temporarily ban imports of NZ honey altogether until the outbreak has passed or the antibiotic is approved.
- fabian2k 2y agoIt sounds a bit like using antibiotics would mean they can't sell the honey anymore, which sounds somewhat plausible. It could be that this would violate the terms of trade agreements. Maybe the countries using the antibiotics don't export into markets that have rules against them.
- giantg2 2y agoYes, some antibiotics have been used in markets like China and been found in honey. The antibiotic used is banned in the US due to some sort of negative human impacts. I hear there are other antibiotics approved, but I think it's a patchwork of regulation right now. Also, I question the effectiveness of antibiotics to treat AFB. If the spores remain viable, reinfection in subsequent years or spread still seems possible.
- itsanaccount 2y agoCurious of the lack of access? to alternatives here. If a hive has AFB the practice I'm aware of is to burn it after dark after all the bees have returned, so they don't scatter to other hives. Its euthanasia for an insect colony. Your equipment goes with it. But that was obvious signs (the smell) of AFB. Is this a complaint because its only a spore test and then they burn an entire cluster?
- giantg2 2y agoI was wondering too. But the quality of information seems to be lacking in the article.
- teeray 2y agoI wonder if there’s a phage that could be introduced to a colony that would hunt down AFB.
- fabian2k 2y agoSo the vaccine seems to have been approved in the US in 2023, so it's still very new. I assume antibiotics don't do anything against spores, so that is probably not a solution on its own. And I'd be curious what kind of sterilization procedure works for bacterial spores that would be feasible here?
- bobmcnamara 2y ago> I'd be curious what kind of sterilization procedure works for bacterial spores that would be feasible here? Enough fire, presumably
- fabian2k 2y ago> Burning the hives was more painful when other countries used tools like vaccines, antibiotics and sterilisation - measures prohibited in New Zealand and in some export markets. This part of the article seems to imply that there are sterilization methods that aren't burning down the entire thing. Which I find a bit doubtful as spores are usually very hard to kill.
- bobmcnamara 2y agoYes, less fire, but still enough fire. You don't have to burn everything, but do need burn any spores on the surfaces.
- downvotetruth 2y agoThe whole story seems a tad off given https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40389997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40389997 and that no one could be bothered to find someone to work for ~$5 million to put them through an autoclave.
- giantg2 2y agoIrradiation is the other whole hive method I know of. I think it's not as widely approved though.
- goodluckchuck 2y agoThis sounds like when - to protect the American Chestnut from blight - we destroyed nearly all the American Chestnuts and their genetic diversity (including diversity that may have provided resistance).
- itsanaccount 2y agoI'm watching the hundreds black ash trees struggle against the emerald ash borer. They don't live more than 10? years at max though I wonder if that's true for the new ones. But under the pressure of the borer they seed immensely. For every one tree that dies 20 spawn around it. I'm letting the field of them do their thing, hoping at minimum they maintain themselves in their stunted form as a population until we can introduce a resistant tree.
- giantg2 2y agoI generally agree with this sentiment - I'm a treatment-free (disclaimer to prevent hate responses: I use IPM practices, I'm not a complete idiot) beekeeper. Burning the AFB hives and even other proximal ones makes sense. In theory the resistant hives wouldn't develop AFB and wouldn't be burned in the first place. The number of hives required to be burnt in any year is extremely low, so that'd not a factor in the diversity. Large operations are inherently a threat to diversity. Stuff like package mills supplying most of the country. The large producers could reduce their risks of needing to burn all their equipment by managing multiple smaller apiaries separate from each other. This would limit disease speed and potentially increase diversity (or at least preserve it better).
- sshine 2y ago[flagged]
- moralestapia 2y agoGood ol' GPT, you can be spotted miles away.
- LeifCarrotson 2y agoFor now. I don't think it's a law of nature that GPT-generated text must be this discordant and obvious. This is simply the current state of the art, soon to be eclipsed by improved models that are more difficult or impossible to discern, because we have the combination of mathematics, underlying technology, and economic incentive to improve the models.
- palata 2y ago> because we have the combination of mathematics, underlying technology, and economic incentive to improve the models Still we'll have to see how much the new models improve. Tesla also has all those incentives to get to actual full self-driving... yet they seem to have reached a plateau years ago.
- LeifCarrotson 2y agoI think that in both cases it's a question of when the economics run out: There's a Pareto principle plateau where further investment stops making sense when the project is 80% of the way to functional with 80% of the work remaining. (That's the general Pareto 80/20 rule, I suspect the actual numbers for FSD are far worse.) If Tesla can sell a "Full Self Driving" package with 20% of the work of the real thing, some cameras, and some empty promises for $8k at 0.99%, I think their actual incentives to go from Level 3 to Level 5 are pretty weak. In contrast, GPTs currently have a small window of utility in marketing, search, and other text generation processes where accuracy isn't that important and weird tics are tolerable. The general public isn't yet accustomed to their hallucinations and foibles, so people are willing to pay to use them in contexts where the current state of the art is inadequate, but there will be recoil from those uses. And there's a huge gold rush underway as Google/Microsoft/Meta/others all try to dominate the future regardless of present economics.
- lostemptations5 2y agoWhat does market access mean?
- eythian 2y agoIn this context, usually it means that you would lose access to a market that you sell to. So, some market for NZ honey won't accept the honey if the bees have been treated. That may be geographical, or it may be something like an organic certification.
- dukeofdoom 2y ago$2 million is still cheaper than requiring all the bee keepers to vaccinate. Burning seems like a better solution. Perhaps a national insurance fund to help with unlucky individuals. Also the country marketing themselves as having organic honey is worh a lot more. I've paid like $50 for a small jar of nz honey in Dubai airpot, because of reputation... Champaign from Chapagnia
- workingdog 2y agoIf anybody is on the fence, in my opinion, Manuka honey from NZ is worth the expense at least once to try. It has a unique spiciness to it. Costco sometimes sells it, and they're good about making sure their products aren't fakes.
- dukeofdoom 2y agoCostco also sells real vanilla beans. That's a must try for anyone who hasn't.
- itsanaccount 2y agoLotta the honey bees we're using these days have genetics from Ukraine/Russia as they were found to be excessively mite resistant. The breeding program for mine (Saskatraz) is in Saskatchewan, partially selecting for cold resistant behavior. Meanwhile your honey quality has a lot to do with the local ecology and the weather. Its interesting NZ is able to have a reputation like that, but I think honey is the exact opposite of specific regionalism like "Champaign from Chapagnia". Quite sure you can drive through all 50 states and find a local beekeepers with good, interesting and organic honey.
- dukeofdoom 2y agoI live in Canada, and lost my first hive over this winter. I'm hoping to try again. Honey was delicious...just not enough to share with everyone. Reputations are worth a lot. Canada attracts millions of students to come here to build its future, on reputation alone. Tough some say it's on the decline. Maple syrup, Ice wine, polar bears and polar dips play on people's imagination across the world.
- frereubu 2y agoFor those asking, from TFA: "Burning the hives was more painful when other countries used tools like vaccines, antibiotics and sterilisation - measures prohibited in New Zealand and in some export markets."
- itsanaccount 2y agoPeople are asking because other countries also burn hives.
- Workaccount2 2y agoI can understand no antibiotics or vaccines. New Zealand is notoriously heavy handed. But I can't understand no insurance. Part of me feels like they forwent even trying to get insurance, despite the obvious risk of potentially having to burn your hives. Or got quoted and decided against it. Just a moment of googling found an insurer immediately... https://aon.co.nz/agri-business/bee-insurance https://aon.co.nz/agri-business/bee-insurance So now I feel a bit less "The state is screwing me over" and a bit more "I didn't get insurance, got burned, and now want to socialize the loss with a heart-strings story."
- yyyyybb 2y ago[dead]
- eythian 2y agoIt doesn't look to me, at a quick skim, that this insurance would cover disease, or the loss of income in the future.
- Workaccount2 2y agoI can't imagine disease wouldn't fall under "Loss of stock". But even if it didn't, you can usually pay for whatever you need. And if the disease is so rampant that insurers won't cover it, that's a good sign you shouldn't be in the business. Like building a house where insurers refuse to offer flood coverage.
- ISL 2y agoThe coverage terms, and any exceptions, matter -- at a quick glance, I don't see coverage there for "disease enters a hive and the government forces you to burn all your hives".
- jgeada 2y agoSigh ... yet again capitalism when there is profit, socialism when there are losses. I dislike the blatant hypocrisy and how rarely it gets called out.
- yareal 2y agoAs far as I'm aware, burning hives is standard practice. The real stinger here is lack of insurance or support from the government.
- jandrese 2y agoIt is baffling to me that insurance isn't available for this. This is exactly the kind of situation that insurance exists for. There should be someone willing to underwrite it.
- Dig1t 2y agoBeing forced by the government to burn all your equipment and all your bees, needlessly, is not standard practice.
- giantg2 2y agoIs it needlessly? I didn't see anything in the article that said it was needless. The remediation practices seem to be roughly in line with other countries.
- Dig1t 2y agoThe article talks about an alternative: vaccination. Also people in other countries, like the another poster in here talking about how they do heat treatment in Germany and don’t need to burn hives.
- m3kw9 2y agoMust be high probability of AFB if insurance isn’t covering it
- sinuhe69 2y agoI understand the no antibiotics part, but no vaccine? I didn't know the Kiwis are antivaxxer ;) Or does vaccine for bees mean something else, more sinister?
- rysertio 2y agovaccine availability can be affected by things like, no one sells the vaccine here, or an application for a vaccines approval being stuck in a pile of papers.
- giantg2 2y agoThe first ever AFB vaccine was just created recently. It got US approval only last year (first market to approve it I believe). So yeah, a vaccine exists, but it's not widespread as it's extremely new.
- sinuhe69 2y agoThey threw them all in one sentence and that made me think vaccination of bees is forbidden in NZ! "Burning the hives was more painful when other countries used tools like vaccines, antibiotics and sterilisation - measures prohibited in New Zealand and in some export markets."
- __MatrixMan__ 2y agoMy heart breaks for the bees and their keepers (which is weird because most tragic news doesn't phase me), but I don't think think this is a good case for insurance. You can profitably insure against a flood because it is not more likely to rain when everybody has flood insurance--the risk is independent. But any measure designed to take the sting out of the risk is going to increase the density of colonies and thereby create more risk than there was in the first place. It has a positive feedback loop.
- msrenee 2y agoPeople are more likely to build in flood zones if they can purchase flood insurance. There's a small town here where every house is within a flood zone off the river and they were underwater for about a week a couple years ago. Built right back up and now there's 2 or 3 new housing developments going in.
- LeifCarrotson 2y agoThe entire coast of Florida is comprised of vacation homes and condos right in the path of hurricane storm surge on tiny sandy keys a few feet above sea level. Fortunately, the feedback loop is finally disintegrating. Unfortunately for those left holding the bag, it's disintegrating by insurers fleeing the state and leaving properties uninsurable - just deserts for those who knew the risks and thought they could profit off the situation, but terrible for locals forced out of their homes. I too have little sympathy for those who rebuild and increase development in a river floodplain.
- giantg2 2y agoFlood insurance is generally very expensive. That's should be a massive downside. I won't even look at a house if I know it needs flood insurance. I've seen a few that I would have been interested in had they not required the insurance - meaning I found the flood risk to be acceptable and there were mitigating factors if it did occur.
- ta988 2y agoSo everybody having an insurance pays for this abuse?
- lloydatkinson 2y agoWhat is happening since AFB vaccine was allowed, has there been any push to actually start using it? https://www.labiotech.eu/in-depth/vaccine-honeybees-american-foulbrood/ https://www.labiotech.eu/in-depth/vaccine-honeybees-american...
- wonderwonder 2y agoI, at one point like most people in tech thought being a farmer sounded good. In reality its very very hard and stories like these make me realize how lucky I am to get a good salary for essentially sitting in my office writing words in an IDE before calling it a day at 5pm.
- jethro_tell 2y agoFarming can be hard, but every business can get insurance that covers the risks associated with that particular business. And the risks in farming and raising livestock include total loss of crop or livestock from weather and or disease. In this case, it's not the farming that's the issue, it's the lack of setting up your business to handle the known risks of that business. While it may be unnecessary, which I'm not entirely sure about, if it's how things have been done for 200+ years, you ought to be able to look around that corner and see that you need a plan B for that day. Crop and livestock insurance is a well trodden path in farming, and you either need to have the cash on hand to replace your entire operation or you need to insure for the possibility that your crops don't turn out or your livestock is seriously diseased. This applies to all businesses really.
- fullspectrumdev 2y agoI grew up in farming country, and spent most of my childhood on farms, or otherwise around them. No illusions about it not being incredibly slim margins and fucking backbreaking work with long hours - many farms here are propped up with government subsidies and grants - but it’s still tempting sometimes. I know a few guys in software who are also working farmers and such, and it seems that the regulations are often poorly considered - adding an additional burden.
- giantg2 2y ago"Burning the hives was more painful when other countries used tools like vaccines, antibiotics and sterilisation - measures prohibited in New Zealand and in some export markets. "Most farmers vaccinate their cows for diseases every single year, but it's illegal to vaccinate the hive," Brown said." My understanding is the vaccine was only just approved last year in the US, it's the first of its kind, and it might not even be commercially available on a widespread basis yet. It's it really illegal to vaccinate the hive in New Zealand? It seems odd that a vaccine would be illegal if it was just invented last year. Even in areas where the vaccine is legal, it's not going to save an already infected hive. I'm not familiar with the sterilization techniques the beek alludes to. I assume some jurisdictions allow irradiation for remediation. It seems most jurisdictions require killing the bees, then burning the frames, and charring the inside if the hive body. It seems other remediation methods are less common.
- NoNotTheDuo 2y agoIt's probably a case where it's illegal to vaccinate the hive, because it's not explicitly legal to vaccinate the hive. For example, in the US, it's legal to use brand name "API-Bioxal", which is Oxalic Acid, to treat for varroa mites. However, one can head to their local hardware store and buy generic "Wood Bleach", which is also Oxalic Acid. It is not legal to use the wood bleach to treat your hive, even though it's the same chemical compound.
- giantg2 2y agoYeah, I guess I read it more strictly. It sounds like it would be unlawful but not really illegal. I think it's lack of availability is just the fact that it was first approved anywhere just last year.
- mschuster91 2y ago> However, one can head to their local hardware store and buy generic "Wood Bleach", which is also Oxalic Acid. It is not legal to use the wood bleach to treat your hive, even though it's the same chemical compound. It's not, or to be more precise: there is no certification testing done to make sure the "wood bleach" is just oxalic acid and that's it. The stuff you can buy at a veterinarian, however, is certified to be 6% oxalic acid, 47% water and 47% sugar, and nothing else.
- frankzander 2y agoHm here in Germany we do not burn hives. If AFB occurs the hives have to be heat threaded with a torch (plastic ones have to be cleaned with soda lye). The frames have to be burned or cleaned in soda lye. the bee swarm itself get new frames without any foundation so that they have to build combs of their own. This process must be repeated until no spores are found anymore. Back in the days the beekeepers had to burn their hives but this is from the old days.
- myspy 2y agoMy wife torches the frames and wood boxes too.
- frankzander 2y agoYou have a wise wife :)
- rmetzler 2y agoI just read about this on [0]. This method is a little bit more complicated than you describe it. I’m also not sure how easy it is to scale. You still need to destroy parts of the beehive, let all the bees hunger for a few days and disinfectant the parts of the beehive you want to reuse. I don’t know if all of this is possible with that many beehives mentioned in the post. [0] https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunstschwarmverfahren https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunstschwarmverfahren
- frankzander 2y agoAs far as I know this method is done by commercial beekeepers. Well at the end you are have to choose to burn it all and face big investment or to invest work. It's right that the artificial swarm has to "hunger" a bit. At the end you get no honey from the bees and have to invest in new frames and sugar. It's no visit in the candy store if you have AFB but burning everything seem to be a last resort solution which isn't nowadays necessary anymore. The other problem you are facing are the beekeepers around you ... they have to do the same and than there are some black sheep which are not known to the veterinary administration. They can also contribute to a never ending AFB problem. At the end hygiene (torching unused hives and frames) is the first thing everybody can do to prevent such situation.
- cameron_b 2y agoAs a few comments have pointed out there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the article and the state of things on the ground. For more on AFB, since the article doesn't describe it or the treatment protocols well - https://beeinformed.org/2013/10/21/american-foulbrood-afb/ https://beeinformed.org/2013/10/21/american-foulbrood-afb/ Apart from rules particular to NZ, because I do not know them, a key factor is that honey and wax containing AFB spores can transmit AFB to other bees in other colonies. The reason this is important is that beekeepers ( speaking as one ) move equipment between hives to balance their growth and give more space to make honey as needed. This is especially true after the honey harvest, when we empty frames of honey and give the wax honey comb back to the bees for them to get ready for the winter. That makes the timing of this crucial, as it will be less likely for the beekeeper to reduce the damage if the boxes have been removed for harvest, and disassociated from their hive of origin when AFB is discovered. If you can't say where it came from and where it didn't, then it came from everywhere. It isn't a fun hand to be dealt, and certainly it is worthy of more visibility and research, but it isn't worth wishing he didn't have to destroy it. Even the treatments available need to be used before adding equipment that will be used for honey, because the honey will shield the spores from the treatment and preserve the transmissibility of foul brood.
- fnordpiglet 2y agoThe article as I read it seemed less about being fun or not or regret / wishing etc. It seemed more about the economic toll on their business and the lack of backstop for the beekeeper. I was frankly surprised there was no government discussion of this - it seemed more rationalizing why the regulation exists rather than acknowledging the lack of insurance or assistance. I didn’t hear them wishing they didn’t have to destroy the hives, but fear of what it’s going to do to their business to lose millions in equipment then millions in revenue in the next season. The discussions of “why can’t we do X instead” were rooted in that economic concern. It seems like a pretty legit concern. A reasonable government response could be establishing a government backed insurance for beekeepers against hive loss.
- balderdash 2y agoEspecially given the massive financial assistance given to farmers in most countries, and the importance of bees to farmers
- OJFord 2y agoIf market access is the reason they can't control with other methods, why isn't that just up to the farmer? I.e. it might affect the price he gets or ability to sell, but that's his call, he might think it works out the better option?
- jokoon 2y agoI wonder if the einstein really said that quote about bees, and if biologists would agree with it
- palata 2y agoMore than 10 000 beehives? How does AFB reach 10 000 beehives before the beekeeper takes action? That's the part I don't get. It surely takes time for AFB to spread like this. In my country, when AFB is detected, we lockdown (meaning beekeepers cannot move beehives in and out of that radius) and test all the apiaries in a 2km radius. And we destroy the contaminated beehives. But that stays under control. 10 000 beehives sounds like a huge number to me!
- deadeye 2y ago"Niha Long said it aimed to support beekeepers impacted by the disease" With what? A shoulder to cry on? Nothing in her statement after that included anything about financial support, which is the only type of support that matters in this type of situation.
- deepsun 2y agoWell, the farm had a lot of beehives concentrated, and that likely helped the disease to spread. More smaller farms would be less susceptible. > "By next year, when we don't have boxes for our honey crop, we're probably going to be losing over $5-6 million," I'd say that's a good problem to have.
- theophrastus 2y agoCirca 1980, as a hobbyist beekeeper with six hives nearby Seattle, they came down with foul-brood. (It never was certain if it was American Foul-brood or European) Duly reported and the county agent came in, sealed them, and carted them away. For an additional fee (which I paid) they would fumigate them and return just the hive bodies, but none of the frames, (some of which would contain the infected brood). Those were burned. I believe the fumigant at the time was phosphine[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphine
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- philbin 2y agoCouldn't they use irradiation to kill the spores in beehives? AFAIK irradiation kills everything when used to treat food for long-term storage, for example.
- bregma 2y agoYou would need to irradiate the bees. The bees are the expensive part. Burning everything with regular chemical fire is cheaper.
- marcinzm 2y ago> Long said fewer than eight percent of the country's 8000 beekeepers were currently affected - and there were 2900 reports of AFB made in the past year to May, down 15 percent on the 3449 reports the year before. I wonder if that's just due to people not self-reporting due to the cost of doing so. > "Beekeepers have to notify and then destroy hives within seven days after finding the disease - and most beekeepers, including Steve, usually comply with that regulation. And yup. "Most." "Usually."
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]