5 ms·

Here in Brazil we have voltages in different regions but we also have different voltages inside the home. My washer has its separate 220v circuit while the rest

Here in Brazil we have voltages in different regions but we also have different voltages inside the home. My washer has its separate 220v circuit while the rest of the home is 110v.

coryrc 2y ago
Didn't know that was done outside north America.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
lxgr 2y ago
As far as I know that’s usually a split-phase system: You get 110V between either phase and neutral, and 220V between the phases. In a three-phase system (like the ones used in most of Europe), that effect isn’t as pronounced since you usually have at most 120 degrees phase difference instead of 180 and the voltage between two phases is less than double, so less appliances make use of that (I think some stoves do).
- cesarb 2y ago
  > As far as I know that’s usually a split-phase system: You get 110V between either phase and neutral, and 220V between the phases. We Brazilians tend to call it "110V", but it's often a three-phase system with 127V between phase and neutral and 220V between phases. Or sometimes it's 115V from phase to neutral and 230V from phase to phase (probably a split-phase system like you said). And in that case, us Brazilians would still call the lower voltage "110V", and the higher voltage "220V". You can't trust a Brazilian when they say the voltage is "110V" or "220V". These numbers are only an approximation, which might have been correct for some places a century or two ago. And yes, it's a mess. Check the official list at https://www2.aneel.gov.br/aplicacoes/srd/frmConcessionaria.cfm https://www2.aneel.gov.br/aplicacoes/srd/frmConcessionaria.c... (link found at https://www.gov.br/aneel/pt-br/centrais-de-conteudos/relatorios-e-indicadores/distribuicao https://www.gov.br/aneel/pt-br/centrais-de-conteudos/relator...), which shows which voltages can be found in each city for the whole country. For instance, take a look at the city of São Paulo in the state of São Paulo (yes, it's the same name for the state and its capital city, this is also the case for Rio de Janeiro): - 115V / 230V - 120V / 208V - 127V / 220V - 220V / 380V - 220V / 440V A Brazilian would say "110V" for all these lower voltages between 115V and 127V, and would say "220V" for all these voltages between 208V and 230V. At least the frequency is always 60Hz (unlike the rest of South America, which uses 50Hz; we have to use HVDC links when importing or exporting electricity to the neighboring countries).
  - Taniwha 2y ago
    Just for comparison other countries that claim "230v" have that last one - 220-240v between the phase you get and neutral and 440v between phases if you get 3-phase
    - Bene592 2y ago
      440V would be split phase. We have 400 3phase here
  - davedx 2y ago
    Fascinating! Using HVDC to interconnect async grids is very common. This presentation is a nice deep dive on the situation in Europe: we are even building HVDC “corridors” embedded inside some of the sync grids. Pricey gear but valuable too! http://catedraendesa.us.es/documentos/jornadas_uimp_2015/2015%2003%2011%20Seville%20HVDC%28p11%29.pdf http://catedraendesa.us.es/documentos/jornadas_uimp_2015/201...
    - formerly_proven 2y ago
      HVDC corridors make sense because it's functionally impossible to build new overhead transmission lines anywhere, so operators are forced to bury the transmission lines. But buried AC transmission lines have terrible loss and are super expensive, buried HVDC lines are slightly less expensive (but require expensive terminal stations), and have much lower losses.
      - davedx 2y ago
        > it's functionally impossible to build new overhead transmission lines anywhere This isn't really true, new overhead lines are being built all over the place. It definitely depends where they're being built and there is definitely strong opposition from councils in e.g. some parts of Germany, but see for example in the Netherlands there are definitely new overhead lines being built: https://www.tennet.eu/nl/projecten/provincies/groningen/eemshaven-vierverlaten https://www.tennet.eu/nl/projecten/provincies/groningen/eems... That being said it's true that it's much more challenging than it used to be to get planning permission.
- crote 2y ago
  Europe also just doesn't need split-phase systems. A regular outlet will provide 230V @ 16A, or about 3.7kW. That's enough for virtually all household appliances, and single-phase 32A circuits for 7kW stoves are quite common too. Households these days often do have a 3-phase hookup, but it's quite rare to have 3-phase equipment. Maybe a stove, and with the energy transition larger solar setups, electric car chargers, and large heat pumps. But most of the time that 3-phase hookup is just treated as three separate 1-phase sections.

Here in Brazil we have voltages in different regions but we also have different voltages inside the home. My washer has its separate 220v circuit while the rest of the home is 110v.

coryrc 2y ago

Didn't know that was done outside north America.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

lxgr 2y ago

As far as I know that’s usually a split-phase system: You get 110V between either phase and neutral, and 220V between the phases. In a three-phase system (like the ones used in most of Europe), that effect isn’t as pronounced since you usually have at most 120 degrees phase difference instead of 180 and the voltage between two phases is less than double, so less appliances make use of that (I think some stoves do).

cesarb 2y ago
> As far as I know that’s usually a split-phase system: You get 110V between either phase and neutral, and 220V between the phases. We Brazilians tend to call it "110V", but it's often a three-phase system with 127V between phase and neutral and 220V between phases. Or sometimes it's 115V from phase to neutral and 230V from phase to phase (probably a split-phase system like you said). And in that case, us Brazilians would still call the lower voltage "110V", and the higher voltage "220V". You can't trust a Brazilian when they say the voltage is "110V" or "220V". These numbers are only an approximation, which might have been correct for some places a century or two ago. And yes, it's a mess. Check the official list at https://www2.aneel.gov.br/aplicacoes/srd/frmConcessionaria.cfm https://www2.aneel.gov.br/aplicacoes/srd/frmConcessionaria.c... (link found at https://www.gov.br/aneel/pt-br/centrais-de-conteudos/relatorios-e-indicadores/distribuicao https://www.gov.br/aneel/pt-br/centrais-de-conteudos/relator...), which shows which voltages can be found in each city for the whole country. For instance, take a look at the city of São Paulo in the state of São Paulo (yes, it's the same name for the state and its capital city, this is also the case for Rio de Janeiro): - 115V / 230V - 120V / 208V - 127V / 220V - 220V / 380V - 220V / 440V A Brazilian would say "110V" for all these lower voltages between 115V and 127V, and would say "220V" for all these voltages between 208V and 230V. At least the frequency is always 60Hz (unlike the rest of South America, which uses 50Hz; we have to use HVDC links when importing or exporting electricity to the neighboring countries).
- Taniwha 2y ago
  Just for comparison other countries that claim "230v" have that last one - 220-240v between the phase you get and neutral and 440v between phases if you get 3-phase
  - Bene592 2y ago
    440V would be split phase. We have 400 3phase here
- davedx 2y ago
  Fascinating! Using HVDC to interconnect async grids is very common. This presentation is a nice deep dive on the situation in Europe: we are even building HVDC “corridors” embedded inside some of the sync grids. Pricey gear but valuable too! http://catedraendesa.us.es/documentos/jornadas_uimp_2015/2015%2003%2011%20Seville%20HVDC%28p11%29.pdf http://catedraendesa.us.es/documentos/jornadas_uimp_2015/201...
  - formerly_proven 2y ago
    HVDC corridors make sense because it's functionally impossible to build new overhead transmission lines anywhere, so operators are forced to bury the transmission lines. But buried AC transmission lines have terrible loss and are super expensive, buried HVDC lines are slightly less expensive (but require expensive terminal stations), and have much lower losses.
    - davedx 2y ago
      > it's functionally impossible to build new overhead transmission lines anywhere This isn't really true, new overhead lines are being built all over the place. It definitely depends where they're being built and there is definitely strong opposition from councils in e.g. some parts of Germany, but see for example in the Netherlands there are definitely new overhead lines being built: https://www.tennet.eu/nl/projecten/provincies/groningen/eemshaven-vierverlaten https://www.tennet.eu/nl/projecten/provincies/groningen/eems... That being said it's true that it's much more challenging than it used to be to get planning permission.
crote 2y ago
Europe also just doesn't need split-phase systems. A regular outlet will provide 230V @ 16A, or about 3.7kW. That's enough for virtually all household appliances, and single-phase 32A circuits for 7kW stoves are quite common too. Households these days often do have a 3-phase hookup, but it's quite rare to have 3-phase equipment. Maybe a stove, and with the energy transition larger solar setups, electric car chargers, and large heat pumps. But most of the time that 3-phase hookup is just treated as three separate 1-phase sections.