6 ms·

It really is silly it was classified as more dangerous than cocaine. A drug that you can actually overdose on.

by bairen 2y ago

droopyEyelids 2y ago
It wasn't silly, it was a deliberate choice to hurt politically undesirable demographics.
- tstrimple 2y ago
  “You want to know what this [war on drugs] was really all about? The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.” ~ John Ehrlichman, Assistant to the President for Domestic Affairs under President Richard Nixon
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- rayiner 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - triceratops 2y ago
    > all seem to agree...that marijuana use is degenerate behavior... Hindus, Muslims, Christians, and the world’s largest atheist countries are on the same page Maybe leave the Hindus out of this. You might not have the full picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhang#Culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhang#Culture Moreover there are many "degenerate behaviors" that we don't currently lock people up for. Like not washing hands after going to the bathroom, even after going #2. Does someone quietly consuming a plant without bothering anyone qualify as "degenerate"? > It’s also illegal in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, though we can debate how homogenous or not those countries are. I didn't realize there was a debate at all. They're incredibly diverse countries. According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcotic_Drugs_and_Psychotropic_Substances_Act,_1985#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcotic_Drugs_and_Psychotropi...) cannabis was made illegal in India due to US pressure and international treaties. I didn't look up the history of cannabis legality for the other 2 countries. I know you were trying to dispute GP's assertion that cannabis was made illegal in the US as a way to selectively prosecute minorities by pointing out how it's illegal worldwide. The example above might show you how both could be true. (Btw I have no idea if racism is the reason cannabis became illegal in the US, or whether it was just a regular moral panic)
    - rayiner 2y ago
      I think there’s a distinction to be drawn between specific religious use on certain holidays and recreational use of marijuana. But otherwise fair point. > I know you were trying to dispute GP's assertion that cannabis was made illegal in the US as a way to selectively prosecute minorities by pointing out how it's illegal worldwide. The example above might show you how both could be true. But your link suggests that the first point is not true. It categorizes countries into groups based on their positions in the treaty. But the anti-drug groups included many countries besides the US: “Manufacturing states group: This group included primarily Western industrialized nations, the key players being the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Switzerland, the Netherlands, West Germany, and Japan. Having no cultural affinity for organic drug use and being faced with the effects of drug abuse on their citizens, they advocated stringent controls on the production of organic raw materials and on illicit trafficking.” “Strict control group: These were essentially non-producing and non-manufacturing states with no direct economic stake in the drug trade. The key members were France, Sweden, Brazil, and the Republic of China. Most of the states in this group were culturally opposed to drug use and suffered from abuse problems.” > Does someone quietly consuming a plant without bothering anyone qualify as "degenerate"? Yes. For most people, marijuana makes them worse rather than better at fulfilling their social roles as parents, workers, etc. I’m sure there are exceptions, but I’ve never met one. (Like “functional alcoholics” y’all aren’t as functional as they want us to think.)
      - triceratops 2y ago
        You're conflating alcoholics - definitionally people with substance abuse problems - with all cannabis users. Have a think, consider whether that's logical, setting aside your valid emotions about the topic. If a parent can have a glass of wine after the kids are in bed, why not an edible? Workers' productivity is a performance management issue for employers, not something to be addressed with state violence.
        rayiner 2y ago
        > You're conflating alcoholics - definitionally people with substance abuse problems - with all cannabis users. I’m not conflating them, I’m comparing them. Based on my anecdotal observations, people have less command over their addictive behaviors (whether it’s alcohol or weed) than they think. > If a parent can have a glass of wine after the kids are in bed, why not an edible? Because people don’t have as much control over themselves as you want to believe. People would be better parents if nobody drank. > Workers' productivity is a performance management issue for employers, not something to be addressed with state violence. Worker productivity creates the resources available to take care of the community. That’s not any less true in a modern tax-funded welfare state than in a third world village. When half your income is going to the government, the government (which is just a proxy for the community) has a strong interest in people being productive.
  - faizan-ali 2y ago
    "It's banned in all these places so it must be bad" is a terrible argument. It was also illegal to be gay or get an abortion in most places until recently. All societies up until maybe 200 years ago for some, yesterday for others, also agreed that women were lesser. Pretty strong consensus there actually. Sigh.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      My argument is: “it’s banned in all these places so it must not be the result of US racial politics.” The same is true for laws against abortion or homosexuality. The fact that Hinduism and Buddhism have taboos against both shows that the taboos aren’t something that American Christians ginned up from nothing. They reflect something about the human experience that cuts across completely different cultures. The same thing with gender roles. Social consensus 200 years ago probably reflects some cross-cutting aspect of the human experience, for example the fact that 200 years ago, when most people survived by doing back-breaking physical labor, the physical differences between men and women were much more salient in everyday life.
      - toomanyrichies 2y ago
        > The fact that Hinduism and Buddhism have taboos against both shows that the taboos aren’t something that American Christians ginned up from nothing. They reflect something about the human experience that cuts across completely different cultures. A societal practice or norm can still be worth dismantling, even if it does "reflect something about the human experience that cuts across completely different cultures". Case in point- the historical bias against left-handed people. The fact that this irrational fear has been propagated by countries and cultures too numerous to count, from Taiwan to Malawi [1], does not make it more valid or worthy of propagation. It might just mean that all these cultures have similar flaws to address. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_against_left-handed_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_against_left-handed_peopl...
  - droopyEyelids 2y ago
    Surprised no one is telling you that countries face enormous trade pressure and potentially sanctions if they don't follow the USA's lead on drug legalization status.
- mc32 2y ago
  We have banned alcohol, religions ban alcohol. It's more to do with moral panic rather than subjugating people. As others mention, Singapore, China, Japan, North Korea, etc. have strict control over narcotic substances. Many countries are in diametric opposition to US policies but "agree" with narcotics policies for some of the same reasons. You have to realize countries will make things terrible crimes by framing something anti-colonialist.
  - deprecative 2y ago
    The US' War on Drugs was created to subjugate minority and leftist communities. The powers that be admitted as much.
    - mc32 2y ago
      No doubt that was the case for many instances; however, I would posit that even if the US had been homogenously either black or white as a nation, in either case as a country we would still have controlled those substances. By and large, the only places that didn't control narcotics were locations with poor/weak central governments or a history of proscribed consumption (central Asia had/has a history where it's customary for older folks to consume, but it is heavily frowned upon for non older people to consume.)
tpmoney 2y ago
It’s even more ridiculous when you learn that there is a prescription form of medical THC, fully legal and authorized under the FDA and DEA rules. And it’s a schedule III.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

It really is silly it was classified as more dangerous than cocaine. A drug that you can actually overdose on.

by bairen 2y ago

It really is silly it was classified as more dangerous than cocaine. A drug that you can actually overdose on.

droopyEyelids 2y ago

It wasn't silly, it was a deliberate choice to hurt politically undesirable demographics.

tstrimple 2y ago
“You want to know what this [war on drugs] was really all about? The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.” ~ John Ehrlichman, Assistant to the President for Domestic Affairs under President Richard Nixon
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
rayiner 2y ago
[flagged]
- triceratops 2y ago
  > all seem to agree...that marijuana use is degenerate behavior... Hindus, Muslims, Christians, and the world’s largest atheist countries are on the same page Maybe leave the Hindus out of this. You might not have the full picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhang#Culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhang#Culture Moreover there are many "degenerate behaviors" that we don't currently lock people up for. Like not washing hands after going to the bathroom, even after going #2. Does someone quietly consuming a plant without bothering anyone qualify as "degenerate"? > It’s also illegal in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, though we can debate how homogenous or not those countries are. I didn't realize there was a debate at all. They're incredibly diverse countries. According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcotic_Drugs_and_Psychotropic_Substances_Act,_1985#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcotic_Drugs_and_Psychotropi...) cannabis was made illegal in India due to US pressure and international treaties. I didn't look up the history of cannabis legality for the other 2 countries. I know you were trying to dispute GP's assertion that cannabis was made illegal in the US as a way to selectively prosecute minorities by pointing out how it's illegal worldwide. The example above might show you how both could be true. (Btw I have no idea if racism is the reason cannabis became illegal in the US, or whether it was just a regular moral panic)
  - rayiner 2y ago
    I think there’s a distinction to be drawn between specific religious use on certain holidays and recreational use of marijuana. But otherwise fair point. > I know you were trying to dispute GP's assertion that cannabis was made illegal in the US as a way to selectively prosecute minorities by pointing out how it's illegal worldwide. The example above might show you how both could be true. But your link suggests that the first point is not true. It categorizes countries into groups based on their positions in the treaty. But the anti-drug groups included many countries besides the US: “Manufacturing states group: This group included primarily Western industrialized nations, the key players being the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Switzerland, the Netherlands, West Germany, and Japan. Having no cultural affinity for organic drug use and being faced with the effects of drug abuse on their citizens, they advocated stringent controls on the production of organic raw materials and on illicit trafficking.” “Strict control group: These were essentially non-producing and non-manufacturing states with no direct economic stake in the drug trade. The key members were France, Sweden, Brazil, and the Republic of China. Most of the states in this group were culturally opposed to drug use and suffered from abuse problems.” > Does someone quietly consuming a plant without bothering anyone qualify as "degenerate"? Yes. For most people, marijuana makes them worse rather than better at fulfilling their social roles as parents, workers, etc. I’m sure there are exceptions, but I’ve never met one. (Like “functional alcoholics” y’all aren’t as functional as they want us to think.)
    - triceratops 2y ago
      You're conflating alcoholics - definitionally people with substance abuse problems - with all cannabis users. Have a think, consider whether that's logical, setting aside your valid emotions about the topic. If a parent can have a glass of wine after the kids are in bed, why not an edible? Workers' productivity is a performance management issue for employers, not something to be addressed with state violence.
      - rayiner 2y ago
        > You're conflating alcoholics - definitionally people with substance abuse problems - with all cannabis users. I’m not conflating them, I’m comparing them. Based on my anecdotal observations, people have less command over their addictive behaviors (whether it’s alcohol or weed) than they think. > If a parent can have a glass of wine after the kids are in bed, why not an edible? Because people don’t have as much control over themselves as you want to believe. People would be better parents if nobody drank. > Workers' productivity is a performance management issue for employers, not something to be addressed with state violence. Worker productivity creates the resources available to take care of the community. That’s not any less true in a modern tax-funded welfare state than in a third world village. When half your income is going to the government, the government (which is just a proxy for the community) has a strong interest in people being productive.
- faizan-ali 2y ago
  "It's banned in all these places so it must be bad" is a terrible argument. It was also illegal to be gay or get an abortion in most places until recently. All societies up until maybe 200 years ago for some, yesterday for others, also agreed that women were lesser. Pretty strong consensus there actually. Sigh.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    My argument is: “it’s banned in all these places so it must not be the result of US racial politics.” The same is true for laws against abortion or homosexuality. The fact that Hinduism and Buddhism have taboos against both shows that the taboos aren’t something that American Christians ginned up from nothing. They reflect something about the human experience that cuts across completely different cultures. The same thing with gender roles. Social consensus 200 years ago probably reflects some cross-cutting aspect of the human experience, for example the fact that 200 years ago, when most people survived by doing back-breaking physical labor, the physical differences between men and women were much more salient in everyday life.
    - toomanyrichies 2y ago
      > The fact that Hinduism and Buddhism have taboos against both shows that the taboos aren’t something that American Christians ginned up from nothing. They reflect something about the human experience that cuts across completely different cultures. A societal practice or norm can still be worth dismantling, even if it does "reflect something about the human experience that cuts across completely different cultures". Case in point- the historical bias against left-handed people. The fact that this irrational fear has been propagated by countries and cultures too numerous to count, from Taiwan to Malawi [1], does not make it more valid or worthy of propagation. It might just mean that all these cultures have similar flaws to address. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_against_left-handed_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_against_left-handed_peopl...
- droopyEyelids 2y ago
  Surprised no one is telling you that countries face enormous trade pressure and potentially sanctions if they don't follow the USA's lead on drug legalization status.
mc32 2y ago
We have banned alcohol, religions ban alcohol. It's more to do with moral panic rather than subjugating people. As others mention, Singapore, China, Japan, North Korea, etc. have strict control over narcotic substances. Many countries are in diametric opposition to US policies but "agree" with narcotics policies for some of the same reasons. You have to realize countries will make things terrible crimes by framing something anti-colonialist.
- deprecative 2y ago
  The US' War on Drugs was created to subjugate minority and leftist communities. The powers that be admitted as much.
  - mc32 2y ago
    No doubt that was the case for many instances; however, I would posit that even if the US had been homogenously either black or white as a nation, in either case as a country we would still have controlled those substances. By and large, the only places that didn't control narcotics were locations with poor/weak central governments or a history of proscribed consumption (central Asia had/has a history where it's customary for older folks to consume, but it is heavily frowned upon for non older people to consume.)

tpmoney 2y ago

It’s even more ridiculous when you learn that there is a prescription form of medical THC, fully legal and authorized under the FDA and DEA rules. And it’s a schedule III.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]