7 ms·

The lower-end, power-efficient market is being rapidly devoured by the ESP32. A $20 Pi will still use much more power than an ESP32 while also being less reliab

The lower-end, power-efficient market is being rapidly devoured by the ESP32. A $20 Pi will still use much more power than an ESP32 while also being less reliable and still 3x the price. The RPi company looked into the future and saw microcontrollers eating the lower end of the market, which is why they are now chasing performance. Unfortunately IMO they are not executing on this well. The RPi 5 requires 5V at 5 amps to run properly. It's now near-impossible to run via the 5V header pins, no existing power supplies can support it, and at 25W of power consumption the Intel systems you mention are now serious competition. EDIT: actually it's worse than that. Here's a $99 Intel system that claims 6W power consumption: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CKXL2MPM?ref=product_details&th=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CKXL2MPM?ref=product_details&th=... Aside from GPIO headers it's hard to justify a Pi 5 over that on any grounds.

writeslowly 2y ago
The ESP32 seems like a very different product to me. The pi has megabytes/gigabytes of memory and can reasonably run linux. Were people really using them for the same things?
- freeone3000 2y ago
  I think the Pi is for people who want to run Linux and also be able to direct-drive voltage pins. Cheap intel systems are way better at running linux, and esp32s are way better at driving the voltage pins, but the former doesn’t offer easy hardware-pin accessibility through python and the latter has you figuring out which filesystem library to compile into your binary.
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    > the latter has you figuring out which filesystem library to compile into your binary For what many people are doing with them, ESPHome has simplified the process to programming an ESP32 to do what they want down to nearly nothing. "Running Linux and being able to direct-drive voltage pins" is certainly still an existing market, but it is rapidly being encroached upon in both directions.
  - lll-o-lll 2y ago
    Yes! This is the space PI is still best for, in my opinion. The intel SBC achieve GPIO by adding a microcontroller to the board (as far as I know), but with PI you can drive those pins directly.
- margalabargala 2y ago
  I've personally used Pis for things much better suited to microcontrollers, many many times, purely because I understood Linux and did not understand how to program microcontrollers. Now, the tooling around ESP32s is so good that that's no longer a reason. I would never reach for a Pi over an ESP32 unless I need something an ESP cannot offer, like USB ports or compute or gigabytes of memory.
  - giobox 2y ago
    > I've personally used Pis for things much better suited to microcontrollers, many many times, purely because I understood Linux and did not understand how to program microcontrollers. This describes my trajectory over the last 10 years with the Pi perfectly too. I think a lot of people have jammed a small SBC like the Pi into what should be a micro-controller shaped problem hole, because it's comfortable and familiar. It's just like hacking software at a dev day job, and it runs a Linux distro everyone is super comfortable with. It has GPIO you can learn how to call from any language you like, I already know ssh/systemd/apt etc etc. It will get the job done, albeit often less efficiently and reliably than a microcontroller, and I didn't have to spend a lot of time learning things. I also think the huge success of ESP32 in the last few years has meant you don't see SBCs being used for what should be micro-controller problems as much in general anymore. Ten years ago, you regularly saw Pi 1/2 etc in this role in a lot of projects online. Speaking for myself, I avoided Arduino in the early years because I didn't want to step out of my lane etc.
    - margalabargala 2y ago
      Agree with everything you said. To expand on this: > Speaking for myself, I avoided Arduino in the early years because I didn't want to step out of my lane etc. Personally the reason I've avoided Arduino is the absolute pain in the butt that it used to be to get it connected to a network. Almost everything I build benefits from some sort of connectivity, and the Arduino was only really good for things that were purely offline. Even before the Pis had wifi, they had ethernet and I could just plug them in. And now that ESP32 exists there's no reason to buy the wifi-enabled arduinos they now make, at 8x the price.
  - 2y ago
- greggsy 2y ago
  The ESP32 is meeting the needs of people doing IOT things that they used to do on the Pi. Why deploy a $25 Pi for a custom weather controller that uses ~2.5w, when a $5 ESP can can do the same thing on 25mW, and run off a battery? ESP32 is obviously not a desktop or server platform. Personally, I don’t think Pi’s are either: flaky and fussy power requirements, and packages aren’t always cross compiled to arm64. I’ve wasted enough time compiling my own packages, and encountered my share of random issues that I’ll never use it as a server platform again.
  - golem14 2y ago
    Maybe off-topic, but are there good solutions for esp32/other microcontrollers controlling zigbee devices ? I found a bunch of libraries (e.g., https://github.com/espressif/esp-zigbee-sdk https://github.com/espressif/esp-zigbee-sdk), but nothing that seems easily usable as a zigbee controller/hub to flip switches in the house, out of the box. OTOH, running home assistant on a pi is monstrous: overly general and bloated for my use case, need a beefy Pi to get decent performance and not need >1 minute to reboot after a power outage.
    - cptskippy 2y ago
      Zigbee support is a relatively new feature. I believe the C6 and H2 variants of the ESP32 are the only ones to support it.
- topspin 2y ago
  > Were people really using them for the same things? No, generally not. Sure, there is overlap. The power requirements, processing elements, available peripherals, storage capacity, form factors, tool chains and cost are all in very different classes, however.
- cptskippy 2y ago
  > Were people really using them for the same things? Yes, I was talking to someone who was using a Raspberry Pi as a hot tub controller. Something a $1 ESP8266 could easily do.
  - Scene_Cast2 2y ago
    Amusingly, I recently talked to someone who built a hot tub controller with an ESP32; it runs on a battery that lasts for half a year.
    - conk 2y ago
      I received an 8 channel ESP32 board today that I’m planning to use to replace the failed ~25 year old control board that failed in my hot tub.
nsteel 2y ago
They designed and built their own microcontroller. This chasing performance narrative doesn't make sense. And let's be real, it doesn't have 25W power consumption. You can attach enough things to it to get to 25W if you try really hard but that's hardly the same thing. The latest cheapo Intel parts are contenders (at ~10W, where the pi 5 actually operates) and if you just want perf you're better off with that. But if you want a low-level connectivity, a rich community, docs, and tailor-made projects, you still want a pi.
- margalabargala 2y ago
  Yes, they made a microcontroller to compete with the ESP32, but the ESP32 has orders of magnitude more market share and ecosystem. Not to diminish what they accomplished with the RP2040; it's an impressive chip. But as for whether they're chasing performance, the RP2040 isn't their flagship product. The Pi 5 is. And I've had a Pi 5, under heavy CPU (not peripheral) load, start throwing undervoltage warnings when using a 5V3A power supply from a Pi 4.
  - nsteel 2y ago
    https://github.com/geerlingguy/sbc-reviews/issues/21 https://github.com/geerlingguy/sbc-reviews/issues/21 Power Idle power draw (at wall): 1.8 W (See note) Maximum simulated power draw (stress-ng --matrix 0): 9.7 W During Geekbench multicore benchmark: 7.9 W During top500 HPL benchmark: 11 W (2.75 Gflops/W)
    - margalabargala 2y ago
      Huh. Maybe I had a bad power supply, then. Interesting. This is compellingly saying that I was too hasty in assuming the low voltage warnings were from the 18W supply topping out. Thank you for this.
      - abswest 2y ago
        Seen same power warnings, when powered by RP4 5V/3A. Had to use 5.1V power supply to get rid of them.
bayindirh 2y ago
That’s probably an N100. Its actual TDP is 15 watts, but it works reasonably well when capped at 6W. They are good devices, but they are bigger than Pi and are whiny. Their fans never turns off and creates background noise. I have quite a few of them. On the other hand, Pi’s 25W contains tons of overhead for other devices. A 5TB external hard drive still requires way more power than a 1 TB one or an SSD.
- mianos 2y ago
  I have 2 n100 boxes and none of them have fans at all. Set at 9W and never had a problem so far.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    Interesting. All models I have found had fans. It’s easy to dissipate 9 watts with some clever design.
    - magicalhippo 2y ago
      From what I know it seems the router-oriented designs are mostly fanless, like this[1] semi-random example. [1]: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004360072281.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004360072281.html
      - bayindirh 2y ago
        Thanks, probably I missed them due to skipping router/multi NIC systems during shopping.
      - mianos 2y ago
        I stand corrected, one is like that thing, no fan The other is a T9 mini PC. It is really small with 2 network ports. It apparently has a fan. I have never heard it. Which is significant to me because I also have some NUCs and those are the only fans in my office and they are annoying in the silence.
arnavpraneet 2y ago
To pile on here, every Pi I have used (like a dozen at this point) worked fine for years, Pi 5 bricked itself randomly within 4 months of purchase with the complete accessory sets installed (coolers/case etc.) Left a bad taste to blow my savings as a student on the newest and greatest Pi to tinker around with, and it bricks, when the second hand heavily used 4s and 3Bs work fine with constant years of use.
sitzkrieg 2y ago
the rpi has had no power management controls forever. they dont care
CMCDragonkai 2y ago
What about the Nano Pi?
geokon 2y ago
The ESP32 is not the real threat. The real threat are new integrated chips from small Chinese companies that are coming down the pipeline - like the SG2002. They run RISC-V, have integrated RAM and run Linux. They greatly simplify the whole SBC and effectively bridging the gap between RPis and Arduino - in cost and easy of use It's not a full desktop experience, but they're running full Ubuntu - so you code on your laptop and it'll run on the thing - run whatever language you want and blink lights, shoot out emails or do whatever other hobby projects you want using your desktop dev environment. No fiddling with icky micro Arduino/ESP32 libs. RPi have shown themselves to be a Broadcom shop - so their product direction is dictated by Broadcom's chip offerings Example: LicheeRV Nano https://www.cnx-software.com/2024/02/08/licheerv-nano-low-cost-sg2002-risc-v-arm-camera-display-board-wifi-6-ethernet/ https://www.cnx-software.com/2024/02/08/licheerv-nano-low-co...
- eyegor 2y ago
  Does llvm have good riscv support for cross compiling? In my experience, even aarch64 isn't universally supported as a cross compiling target and building on embedded devices is an exercise in patience. I never even considered trying riscv chips in production since I assumed libs would be a hassle. Even on rpi4, it's near impossible for a normal person to use the gpu because videocore6 is so locked down that you get zero lib support or documentation. And I'm pretty sure the only assembler is still from reverse engineering instead of the manfr.
- rerdavies 2y ago
  The problem with the Chinese SBCs is lack of up-to-date LINUX support. Chip manufacturers are eager to provide Android support, but don't care a great deal about Linux support, which is, for them, a tiny niche market. Android will run on significantly out of date kernels, so the chip makers typically bump their kernels to the minimum Linux kernel version required to run a reasonable modern Android. Their Linux ports are based on Android kernels, so they lag significantly behind. And SBC manufacturers just use the kernels provided by the chipset manufacturer. The recent Orange Pi Rockwell-based SBCs, for example, shipped with a 4.x Linux kernel for their Linux port, at a point in time where Raspberry Pi OS was using a 6.x kernel. Raspberry Pis do lag too, but they have significantly newer kernels, and are supported directly by several mainline distros. I've chased a number of alternatives to Raspberry Pi in the interval where Rockwell SBCs were beating the pants off Pi 4s, only to find that they were shipping 4.x Linux kernels. My particular application uses USB audio devices, which don't really work prior to extensive rewrites of the USB audio stack in the 5.15 kernel. Raspberry Pi OS kernels are 6.1 or better. And Ubuntu on raspberry PI has later kernels than that (not sure which currently). Versions of Linux prior to 5.15 supported very old USB Audio 1.0 devices, but not currently available USB Audio 1.1 devices. I imagine you would run into significant problems with video drivers being out of date on non-Pi devices as well. Raspberry Pi had to do their own Vulkan port, which seemed to require significant development effort. I don't think that's likely to change soon. Rockwell doesn't really have a strong incentive to improve their kernel ports beyond what's necessary to support Android. And smaller SBC manufacturers aren't likely to have the resources to do a kernel port themselves.
analog31 2y ago
I've used both RPi and microcontrollers, though my last RPi purchase was for a unit that's been running my home file server for years. My thought is that they cater to different uses, because RPi (and its ilk) support an operating system. So you can decide whether you need or want an OS or not. For instance my file server benefits from all of the networking, file system, and so forth, of Linux. It supports, at the very least, a workable UI for setup and diagnostics via SSH and a terminal program. A microcontroller is preferable for applications where you don't need a full blown OS, and where the size, cost, or power consumption of something like an RPi are burdens. In some cases, an RPi is overkill but provides the convenience of hosting things like onboard dev tools. And unit cost isn't as much of an issue if you're not planning on selling or duplicating something. And an additional option is a microcontroller running as a peripheral to a full blown PC, where you get the benefits of the GPIO, but the comfort of desktop software tools. My general advice for those getting into hardware-related hacking is to give both a try and develop your own taste for which one is preferable for which use.

writeslowly 2y ago

The ESP32 seems like a very different product to me. The pi has megabytes/gigabytes of memory and can reasonably run linux. Were people really using them for the same things?

freeone3000 2y ago
I think the Pi is for people who want to run Linux and also be able to direct-drive voltage pins. Cheap intel systems are way better at running linux, and esp32s are way better at driving the voltage pins, but the former doesn’t offer easy hardware-pin accessibility through python and the latter has you figuring out which filesystem library to compile into your binary.
- margalabargala 2y ago
  > the latter has you figuring out which filesystem library to compile into your binary For what many people are doing with them, ESPHome has simplified the process to programming an ESP32 to do what they want down to nearly nothing. "Running Linux and being able to direct-drive voltage pins" is certainly still an existing market, but it is rapidly being encroached upon in both directions.
- lll-o-lll 2y ago
  Yes! This is the space PI is still best for, in my opinion. The intel SBC achieve GPIO by adding a microcontroller to the board (as far as I know), but with PI you can drive those pins directly.
margalabargala 2y ago
I've personally used Pis for things much better suited to microcontrollers, many many times, purely because I understood Linux and did not understand how to program microcontrollers. Now, the tooling around ESP32s is so good that that's no longer a reason. I would never reach for a Pi over an ESP32 unless I need something an ESP cannot offer, like USB ports or compute or gigabytes of memory.
- giobox 2y ago
  > I've personally used Pis for things much better suited to microcontrollers, many many times, purely because I understood Linux and did not understand how to program microcontrollers. This describes my trajectory over the last 10 years with the Pi perfectly too. I think a lot of people have jammed a small SBC like the Pi into what should be a micro-controller shaped problem hole, because it's comfortable and familiar. It's just like hacking software at a dev day job, and it runs a Linux distro everyone is super comfortable with. It has GPIO you can learn how to call from any language you like, I already know ssh/systemd/apt etc etc. It will get the job done, albeit often less efficiently and reliably than a microcontroller, and I didn't have to spend a lot of time learning things. I also think the huge success of ESP32 in the last few years has meant you don't see SBCs being used for what should be micro-controller problems as much in general anymore. Ten years ago, you regularly saw Pi 1/2 etc in this role in a lot of projects online. Speaking for myself, I avoided Arduino in the early years because I didn't want to step out of my lane etc.
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    Agree with everything you said. To expand on this: > Speaking for myself, I avoided Arduino in the early years because I didn't want to step out of my lane etc. Personally the reason I've avoided Arduino is the absolute pain in the butt that it used to be to get it connected to a network. Almost everything I build benefits from some sort of connectivity, and the Arduino was only really good for things that were purely offline. Even before the Pis had wifi, they had ethernet and I could just plug them in. And now that ESP32 exists there's no reason to buy the wifi-enabled arduinos they now make, at 8x the price.
- 2y ago
greggsy 2y ago
The ESP32 is meeting the needs of people doing IOT things that they used to do on the Pi. Why deploy a $25 Pi for a custom weather controller that uses ~2.5w, when a $5 ESP can can do the same thing on 25mW, and run off a battery? ESP32 is obviously not a desktop or server platform. Personally, I don’t think Pi’s are either: flaky and fussy power requirements, and packages aren’t always cross compiled to arm64. I’ve wasted enough time compiling my own packages, and encountered my share of random issues that I’ll never use it as a server platform again.
- golem14 2y ago
  Maybe off-topic, but are there good solutions for esp32/other microcontrollers controlling zigbee devices ? I found a bunch of libraries (e.g., https://github.com/espressif/esp-zigbee-sdk https://github.com/espressif/esp-zigbee-sdk), but nothing that seems easily usable as a zigbee controller/hub to flip switches in the house, out of the box. OTOH, running home assistant on a pi is monstrous: overly general and bloated for my use case, need a beefy Pi to get decent performance and not need >1 minute to reboot after a power outage.
  - cptskippy 2y ago
    Zigbee support is a relatively new feature. I believe the C6 and H2 variants of the ESP32 are the only ones to support it.
topspin 2y ago
> Were people really using them for the same things? No, generally not. Sure, there is overlap. The power requirements, processing elements, available peripherals, storage capacity, form factors, tool chains and cost are all in very different classes, however.
cptskippy 2y ago
> Were people really using them for the same things? Yes, I was talking to someone who was using a Raspberry Pi as a hot tub controller. Something a $1 ESP8266 could easily do.
- Scene_Cast2 2y ago
  Amusingly, I recently talked to someone who built a hot tub controller with an ESP32; it runs on a battery that lasts for half a year.
  - conk 2y ago
    I received an 8 channel ESP32 board today that I’m planning to use to replace the failed ~25 year old control board that failed in my hot tub.

nsteel 2y ago

They designed and built their own microcontroller. This chasing performance narrative doesn't make sense. And let's be real, it doesn't have 25W power consumption. You can attach enough things to it to get to 25W if you try really hard but that's hardly the same thing. The latest cheapo Intel parts are contenders (at ~10W, where the pi 5 actually operates) and if you just want perf you're better off with that. But if you want a low-level connectivity, a rich community, docs, and tailor-made projects, you still want a pi.

margalabargala 2y ago
Yes, they made a microcontroller to compete with the ESP32, but the ESP32 has orders of magnitude more market share and ecosystem. Not to diminish what they accomplished with the RP2040; it's an impressive chip. But as for whether they're chasing performance, the RP2040 isn't their flagship product. The Pi 5 is. And I've had a Pi 5, under heavy CPU (not peripheral) load, start throwing undervoltage warnings when using a 5V3A power supply from a Pi 4.
- nsteel 2y ago
  https://github.com/geerlingguy/sbc-reviews/issues/21 https://github.com/geerlingguy/sbc-reviews/issues/21 Power Idle power draw (at wall): 1.8 W (See note) Maximum simulated power draw (stress-ng --matrix 0): 9.7 W During Geekbench multicore benchmark: 7.9 W During top500 HPL benchmark: 11 W (2.75 Gflops/W)
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    Huh. Maybe I had a bad power supply, then. Interesting. This is compellingly saying that I was too hasty in assuming the low voltage warnings were from the 18W supply topping out. Thank you for this.
    - abswest 2y ago
      Seen same power warnings, when powered by RP4 5V/3A. Had to use 5.1V power supply to get rid of them.

bayindirh 2y ago

That’s probably an N100. Its actual TDP is 15 watts, but it works reasonably well when capped at 6W. They are good devices, but they are bigger than Pi and are whiny. Their fans never turns off and creates background noise. I have quite a few of them. On the other hand, Pi’s 25W contains tons of overhead for other devices. A 5TB external hard drive still requires way more power than a 1 TB one or an SSD.

mianos 2y ago
I have 2 n100 boxes and none of them have fans at all. Set at 9W and never had a problem so far.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  Interesting. All models I have found had fans. It’s easy to dissipate 9 watts with some clever design.
  - magicalhippo 2y ago
    From what I know it seems the router-oriented designs are mostly fanless, like this[1] semi-random example. [1]: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004360072281.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004360072281.html
    - bayindirh 2y ago
      Thanks, probably I missed them due to skipping router/multi NIC systems during shopping.
    - mianos 2y ago
      I stand corrected, one is like that thing, no fan The other is a T9 mini PC. It is really small with 2 network ports. It apparently has a fan. I have never heard it. Which is significant to me because I also have some NUCs and those are the only fans in my office and they are annoying in the silence.

arnavpraneet 2y ago

To pile on here, every Pi I have used (like a dozen at this point) worked fine for years, Pi 5 bricked itself randomly within 4 months of purchase with the complete accessory sets installed (coolers/case etc.) Left a bad taste to blow my savings as a student on the newest and greatest Pi to tinker around with, and it bricks, when the second hand heavily used 4s and 3Bs work fine with constant years of use.

sitzkrieg 2y ago

the rpi has had no power management controls forever. they dont care

CMCDragonkai 2y ago

What about the Nano Pi?

geokon 2y ago

The ESP32 is not the real threat. The real threat are new integrated chips from small Chinese companies that are coming down the pipeline - like the SG2002. They run RISC-V, have integrated RAM and run Linux. They greatly simplify the whole SBC and effectively bridging the gap between RPis and Arduino - in cost and easy of use It's not a full desktop experience, but they're running full Ubuntu - so you code on your laptop and it'll run on the thing - run whatever language you want and blink lights, shoot out emails or do whatever other hobby projects you want using your desktop dev environment. No fiddling with icky micro Arduino/ESP32 libs. RPi have shown themselves to be a Broadcom shop - so their product direction is dictated by Broadcom's chip offerings Example: LicheeRV Nano https://www.cnx-software.com/2024/02/08/licheerv-nano-low-cost-sg2002-risc-v-arm-camera-display-board-wifi-6-ethernet/ https://www.cnx-software.com/2024/02/08/licheerv-nano-low-co...

eyegor 2y ago
Does llvm have good riscv support for cross compiling? In my experience, even aarch64 isn't universally supported as a cross compiling target and building on embedded devices is an exercise in patience. I never even considered trying riscv chips in production since I assumed libs would be a hassle. Even on rpi4, it's near impossible for a normal person to use the gpu because videocore6 is so locked down that you get zero lib support or documentation. And I'm pretty sure the only assembler is still from reverse engineering instead of the manfr.
rerdavies 2y ago
The problem with the Chinese SBCs is lack of up-to-date LINUX support. Chip manufacturers are eager to provide Android support, but don't care a great deal about Linux support, which is, for them, a tiny niche market. Android will run on significantly out of date kernels, so the chip makers typically bump their kernels to the minimum Linux kernel version required to run a reasonable modern Android. Their Linux ports are based on Android kernels, so they lag significantly behind. And SBC manufacturers just use the kernels provided by the chipset manufacturer. The recent Orange Pi Rockwell-based SBCs, for example, shipped with a 4.x Linux kernel for their Linux port, at a point in time where Raspberry Pi OS was using a 6.x kernel. Raspberry Pis do lag too, but they have significantly newer kernels, and are supported directly by several mainline distros. I've chased a number of alternatives to Raspberry Pi in the interval where Rockwell SBCs were beating the pants off Pi 4s, only to find that they were shipping 4.x Linux kernels. My particular application uses USB audio devices, which don't really work prior to extensive rewrites of the USB audio stack in the 5.15 kernel. Raspberry Pi OS kernels are 6.1 or better. And Ubuntu on raspberry PI has later kernels than that (not sure which currently). Versions of Linux prior to 5.15 supported very old USB Audio 1.0 devices, but not currently available USB Audio 1.1 devices. I imagine you would run into significant problems with video drivers being out of date on non-Pi devices as well. Raspberry Pi had to do their own Vulkan port, which seemed to require significant development effort. I don't think that's likely to change soon. Rockwell doesn't really have a strong incentive to improve their kernel ports beyond what's necessary to support Android. And smaller SBC manufacturers aren't likely to have the resources to do a kernel port themselves.

analog31 2y ago

I've used both RPi and microcontrollers, though my last RPi purchase was for a unit that's been running my home file server for years. My thought is that they cater to different uses, because RPi (and its ilk) support an operating system. So you can decide whether you need or want an OS or not. For instance my file server benefits from all of the networking, file system, and so forth, of Linux. It supports, at the very least, a workable UI for setup and diagnostics via SSH and a terminal program. A microcontroller is preferable for applications where you don't need a full blown OS, and where the size, cost, or power consumption of something like an RPi are burdens. In some cases, an RPi is overkill but provides the convenience of hosting things like onboard dev tools. And unit cost isn't as much of an issue if you're not planning on selling or duplicating something. And an additional option is a microcontroller running as a peripheral to a full blown PC, where you get the benefits of the GPIO, but the comfort of desktop software tools. My general advice for those getting into hardware-related hacking is to give both a try and develop your own taste for which one is preferable for which use.