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Literally only one of the drugs you mentioned can kill you due to withdrawal. Hint: it's not LSD or tobacco. Alcohol is an _extremely_ harmful drug.

Retric 2y ago
Harm is based on all risks not just the metrics that make what you care about look better. 60% of American adults drink regularly so extreme edge cases happen, but they aren’t anywhere close to the risks from car accidents etc. Risk of death is significant, but we’re talking under 0.1% per year.
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  Some absurd number, like 70% of domestic violence, 25% of sexual assaults, 30% of regular assaults, around ~40% of murders, ~15% of robberies, and ~50% of injurious or fatal car accidents occur when people are under the influence of alcohol. that very few are overdosing isn't the issue.
  - Retric 2y ago
    True, social harm is definitely high, on the other hand ~62% of US adults drink. The expected rates of all of those things aren’t 0.
margalabargala 2y ago
See, this is where LSD gets interesting. No, LSD won't kill your body. But what are you? You aren't just your body, you are your mind and mental state and the consistency of that. Do enough LSD, especially consistent high doses, and the "you" you know will die and be permanently replaced by something else. I of course agree that LSD won't put you in a coffin. But there are more axes upon which a drug's danger should be evaluated than "what percentage of users are put in coffins?"
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  And if I try to change your mind about how much it matters to get a new perspective and new evaluation on some things, I might murder you. A conundrum.
  - Retric 2y ago
    Magnitude matters. A full frontal lobotomy counts as personality death even if a conversation doesn’t.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      Do you think LSD is comparable to a lobotomy? And critically, lobotomy isn't a change from one set of mental states to another. That big chunk of brain doesn't grow back.
      - Retric 2y ago
        Memories once missing don’t grow back either. The most extreme cases of LSD use have impacted such basic functions as limiting people’s ability to communicate. Post lobotomy people generally weren’t brain dead, even if diminished. So for extreme cases, yes it’s a solid comparison.
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    Personal anecdote: I used to do a decent amount of LSD (~150ug every 4-5 months for ~3 years), until one time I had an extremely bad trip. Ever since that bad trip, I've found that every time I get high (from LSD, mushrooms, or even marijuana) I start having extreme anxiety to the point where I can't enjoy it anymore and am just waiting for it to end. The bad trip was now 8 years ago and to this day I've not had a great experience on any of the above drugs since then. I consider myself lucky that the anxiety only shows up when on drugs, which is pretty easy to avoid by, y'know, not doing drugs. But clearly something permanently shifted inside my brain. The inability to experience something I used to enjoy without a near-panic-attack is a bit more of an effect than a conversation might have.
lelanthran 2y ago
> Alcohol is an _extremely_ harmful drug. Yeah. If alcohol was discovered only today, there wouldn't be a government in the world that would legalise it. It's legal because its grandfathered in, from the time before humans developed society and civilisation.

Retric 2y ago

Harm is based on all risks not just the metrics that make what you care about look better. 60% of American adults drink regularly so extreme edge cases happen, but they aren’t anywhere close to the risks from car accidents etc. Risk of death is significant, but we’re talking under 0.1% per year.

red-iron-pine 2y ago
Some absurd number, like 70% of domestic violence, 25% of sexual assaults, 30% of regular assaults, around ~40% of murders, ~15% of robberies, and ~50% of injurious or fatal car accidents occur when people are under the influence of alcohol. that very few are overdosing isn't the issue.
- Retric 2y ago
  True, social harm is definitely high, on the other hand ~62% of US adults drink. The expected rates of all of those things aren’t 0.

margalabargala 2y ago

See, this is where LSD gets interesting. No, LSD won't kill your body. But what are you? You aren't just your body, you are your mind and mental state and the consistency of that. Do enough LSD, especially consistent high doses, and the "you" you know will die and be permanently replaced by something else. I of course agree that LSD won't put you in a coffin. But there are more axes upon which a drug's danger should be evaluated than "what percentage of users are put in coffins?"

Dylan16807 2y ago
And if I try to change your mind about how much it matters to get a new perspective and new evaluation on some things, I might murder you. A conundrum.
- Retric 2y ago
  Magnitude matters. A full frontal lobotomy counts as personality death even if a conversation doesn’t.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    Do you think LSD is comparable to a lobotomy? And critically, lobotomy isn't a change from one set of mental states to another. That big chunk of brain doesn't grow back.
    - Retric 2y ago
      Memories once missing don’t grow back either. The most extreme cases of LSD use have impacted such basic functions as limiting people’s ability to communicate. Post lobotomy people generally weren’t brain dead, even if diminished. So for extreme cases, yes it’s a solid comparison.
- margalabargala 2y ago
  Personal anecdote: I used to do a decent amount of LSD (~150ug every 4-5 months for ~3 years), until one time I had an extremely bad trip. Ever since that bad trip, I've found that every time I get high (from LSD, mushrooms, or even marijuana) I start having extreme anxiety to the point where I can't enjoy it anymore and am just waiting for it to end. The bad trip was now 8 years ago and to this day I've not had a great experience on any of the above drugs since then. I consider myself lucky that the anxiety only shows up when on drugs, which is pretty easy to avoid by, y'know, not doing drugs. But clearly something permanently shifted inside my brain. The inability to experience something I used to enjoy without a near-panic-attack is a bit more of an effect than a conversation might have.

lelanthran 2y ago

> Alcohol is an _extremely_ harmful drug. Yeah. If alcohol was discovered only today, there wouldn't be a government in the world that would legalise it. It's legal because its grandfathered in, from the time before humans developed society and civilisation.