4 ms·

This take is naive and bizarre. This is not about ‘making fun of celebrities,’ this is about whether we, as humans, have a right to our likeness and to be prote

This take is naive and bizarre. This is not about ‘making fun of celebrities,’ this is about whether we, as humans, have a right to our likeness and to be protected from it being used in ways we disapprove of. This is an issue of privacy, not speech. You do not have a right to put me in porn of your choosing. And I, as the victim, should be given maximal ability to annihilate those images, get cooperation from those who host them or make them findable, and to seek damages from anyone who makes them of me.

randomdata 2y ago
> You do not have a right to put me in porn of your choosing. He does not have the right to use your flesh to produce a porn of his choosing, but does he not have the right to employ your willing doppelgänger? There is no reason to think that likeness is exclusive.
- ordinaryradical 2y ago
  No, you do not have the rights to my “doppelganger” because you were never granted them. This is a bizarre argument as well. When a news reporter is doing man-on-the-street interviews, you have to sign a release that allows them to broadcast footage of you. It is not your physical person inside the TV, it’s a video representation of you. Just as much a doppelgänger as any deepfake. And they have to have you sign something in order to use it. They have the exact same kind of paperwork for filming porn. Because the same legalities and rights are in play. Just because the image of you is generated does not mean: a) it’s not an image of you b) it’s not subject to these same laws.
  - randomdata 2y ago
    This is a bizarre take. If your doppelgänger stars in a porn video, or whatever else, that is for them to choose. You don't have rights to them just because you happen to share the same likeness. > When a news reporter is doing man-on-the-street interviews, you have to sign a release that allows them to broadcast footage of you. If used commercially, yes, without such release you could claim that you were party to the commercial business venture and thus are owed due compensation. Indeed, the broadcaster will seek protections against such a claim. But a hobbyist filming you, the "man on the street", for sheer enjoyment would not require a release.
    - ordinaryradical 2y ago
      Read about the right to publicity. It has already been invoked for involuntary pornography and these cases will keep being won. Your autonomy to make images can’t infringe on my autonomy to choose not to be in them. It’s not a matter of commerce, it’s privacy.
      - superkuh 2y ago
        You need to re-read about the right to publicity. You are using it outside of it's legal context of for-profit commercial trademark. The commercial benefit bit is the core and single purpose of the idea. Though you may remember those cases, those cases almost certainly involved business and that case law does not apply in this discussion. >The right of publicity is an intellectual property right that protects against the misappropriation of a person’s name, likeness, or other indicia of personal identity—such as nickname, pseudonym, voice, signature, likeness, or photograph—for commercial benefit. A lot of people seem to get confused about that because they cannot imagine people operating as human persons and not as incorporated persons trying to make money; a particularly bad problem on HN.
    - polotics 2y ago
      Your usage of the term "doppelgänger" and your claim that they have agency and rights... is extremely bizarre. Clearly it is the person producing the deepfake who has agency, and their right does not extend to the right to harm others' image.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - randomdata 2y ago
        To call a person with agency and rights a "deepfake" is the most bizarre thing we have seen yet. Get back to us when you get around to reading the discussion.
        polotics 2y ago
  - zonkerdonker 2y ago
    Ok, what if I was a very good hyper-realistic artist, and used a real person's hyper realistic and accurate face in my pornographic 'art'?
  - riskable 2y ago
    Typically they don't make you sign a release. That's normally only done if they're interviewing you. I've been recorded in protests, had my picture taken with my name in the caption, and been in newspapers and on the (local) news in numerous occasions where they didn't ask me my permission nor did they ask me to sign anything. If you're in a public place they have the right to record you. Period. A lot of publications/news sites will blur out people's faces but that's not legally necessary. I was interviewed by a local news station once and they asked me to sign a generic waver that let them display my likeness for the purpose of reporting the news (i.e. the interview). I read the whole thing and it was very short (as far as legal agreements goes... it was only one page). That's the only time I've ever been asked to sign such a thing despite having my likeness recorded so many times (usually in the background during various events).
  - Ferret7446 2y ago
    So someone who looks indistinguishably like you (such cases do exist) would not be allowed to film porn without your consent? What if someone generates a likeness of this person (which is indistinguishable from you) with their consent but not yours?
tekla 2y ago
Do you think cutting a face out of a picture and putting it on some other nude human for a wank should be a crime?
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  I think distributing that image without the consent of the person whose face you used should be a crime. Purely private use is a harder question, but I think also a much less important one.
  - superkuh 2y ago
    Do you think giving the image to a friend on an IRC channel is distribution? What about if I give a physical copy to a friend at a bar at a table? Or is it only distribution if a corporation is involved like having Facebook host the photo? What is "distribution"? What is a public space and what is a private space? Your simple solution brings in insolvable problems and incredible vagueness that will result, again, in worse problems than it "solves".
    - bashinator 2y ago
      > worse problems than it "solves". I'm going to go out on a limb and hypothesize that you're not in a demographic that is likely to be victimized by deepfake porn of yourself.
      - superkuh 2y ago
        Lacking any arguments regarding the subject of discusion one often finds the internet outrage farmer resorting to comments about the persons involved instead.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - tekla 2y ago
        You understand that "feeling victimized" is not a good argument right? Ex. I'm morbidly obese. Someone shares pictures of me (taken in a public area) and laughs at me for that. Is that a crime? I might feel like shit and victimized, but thats not actually an argument that its a crime. This sort of argument really seems like a way to try to use ick and feels versus actual logic.
superkuh 2y ago
>put me in porn of your choosing. Oh, I see the confusion. We're talking about synthetic images in this discussion. We're not talking about actual explicit photos or video of someone. So in this scenario "you" wouldn't be involved at all. Although it has been long established that using actual photos and swapping faces, etc, is perfectly legal. Just because the tools are slightly faster than photoshop does not make this a new thing. if anything, the fact that no actual photos are involved makes deepfakes even less objectionable and clearly not victimizing anyone. Technical ignorance, willful or accidental, is no excuse for advocating these extreme viewpoints in which you demand use of force against actual human people in situations where no one is harmed. Calls for organized violence like this are not acceptable.
- polotics 2y ago
  maybe a caveat here. Also: citation needed! Using photos is only perfectly legal if this use is within the licence agreement of the photos. as I understand it using a picture of somebody you took on the street is allowed in the sense that you can print this picture unmodified that's public domain. However taking this picture you took on the streets and make a deep fake porn out of the picture of that person is definitely not within the licence that public pictures grant you. if you take a picture of my daughter riding her bike and make a fake porn out of it with her face, don't worry I'm on your case... Same for any picture taken by a paparazzi of some prominent figure actress for example these are all licenced, good luck with the lawyers... https://finance.yahoo.com/news/scarlett-johansson-sues-ai-generator-175439964.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANFxfhbQc2WneizwdelNXhinF00HUA0RAbuVaoPn-l4nBCznP0AGA_rwMXKlhe6TPCJ9Bz0x0O0PhznKTzT_b0n8Uw4bc0dS5vdk-6opJjjI3Cp-35hxvN2D_D5-Q_DnNCVNRpD74R4Zt1kQutWDpLj0zivso6XzCoPpt5plbU_l https://finance.yahoo.com/news/scarlett-johansson-sues-ai-ge...
  - superkuh 2y ago
    You're implicit assumption of commercial use here makes everything you've said invalid in most use cases discussed in this thread.
someuser2345 2y ago
> we, as humans, have a right to our likeness and to be protected from it being used in ways we disapprove of. I don't agree with that. For example, it should be perfectly legal to make caricatures of someone in order to make fun of them (i.e. political cartoons or memes), even, or especially when the person being made fun of doesn't approve. I do agree that this probably does not apply to porn though.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
CoastalCoder 2y ago
> This is an issue of privacy, not speech. I'm curious about this part of your argument. It seems to imply that the only relevant framework for analyzing this issue is the privacy angle. If that's actually the point you're making, how would you justify it? Especially when AFAICT it's pitting two apparent goods, privacy and free speech, against each other?

randomdata 2y ago

> You do not have a right to put me in porn of your choosing. He does not have the right to use your flesh to produce a porn of his choosing, but does he not have the right to employ your willing doppelgänger? There is no reason to think that likeness is exclusive.

ordinaryradical 2y ago
No, you do not have the rights to my “doppelganger” because you were never granted them. This is a bizarre argument as well. When a news reporter is doing man-on-the-street interviews, you have to sign a release that allows them to broadcast footage of you. It is not your physical person inside the TV, it’s a video representation of you. Just as much a doppelgänger as any deepfake. And they have to have you sign something in order to use it. They have the exact same kind of paperwork for filming porn. Because the same legalities and rights are in play. Just because the image of you is generated does not mean: a) it’s not an image of you b) it’s not subject to these same laws.
- randomdata 2y ago
  This is a bizarre take. If your doppelgänger stars in a porn video, or whatever else, that is for them to choose. You don't have rights to them just because you happen to share the same likeness. > When a news reporter is doing man-on-the-street interviews, you have to sign a release that allows them to broadcast footage of you. If used commercially, yes, without such release you could claim that you were party to the commercial business venture and thus are owed due compensation. Indeed, the broadcaster will seek protections against such a claim. But a hobbyist filming you, the "man on the street", for sheer enjoyment would not require a release.
  - ordinaryradical 2y ago
    Read about the right to publicity. It has already been invoked for involuntary pornography and these cases will keep being won. Your autonomy to make images can’t infringe on my autonomy to choose not to be in them. It’s not a matter of commerce, it’s privacy.
    - superkuh 2y ago
      You need to re-read about the right to publicity. You are using it outside of it's legal context of for-profit commercial trademark. The commercial benefit bit is the core and single purpose of the idea. Though you may remember those cases, those cases almost certainly involved business and that case law does not apply in this discussion. >The right of publicity is an intellectual property right that protects against the misappropriation of a person’s name, likeness, or other indicia of personal identity—such as nickname, pseudonym, voice, signature, likeness, or photograph—for commercial benefit. A lot of people seem to get confused about that because they cannot imagine people operating as human persons and not as incorporated persons trying to make money; a particularly bad problem on HN.
  - polotics 2y ago
    Your usage of the term "doppelgänger" and your claim that they have agency and rights... is extremely bizarre. Clearly it is the person producing the deepfake who has agency, and their right does not extend to the right to harm others' image.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - randomdata 2y ago
      To call a person with agency and rights a "deepfake" is the most bizarre thing we have seen yet. Get back to us when you get around to reading the discussion.
      - polotics 2y ago
- zonkerdonker 2y ago
  Ok, what if I was a very good hyper-realistic artist, and used a real person's hyper realistic and accurate face in my pornographic 'art'?
- riskable 2y ago
  Typically they don't make you sign a release. That's normally only done if they're interviewing you. I've been recorded in protests, had my picture taken with my name in the caption, and been in newspapers and on the (local) news in numerous occasions where they didn't ask me my permission nor did they ask me to sign anything. If you're in a public place they have the right to record you. Period. A lot of publications/news sites will blur out people's faces but that's not legally necessary. I was interviewed by a local news station once and they asked me to sign a generic waver that let them display my likeness for the purpose of reporting the news (i.e. the interview). I read the whole thing and it was very short (as far as legal agreements goes... it was only one page). That's the only time I've ever been asked to sign such a thing despite having my likeness recorded so many times (usually in the background during various events).
- Ferret7446 2y ago
  So someone who looks indistinguishably like you (such cases do exist) would not be allowed to film porn without your consent? What if someone generates a likeness of this person (which is indistinguishable from you) with their consent but not yours?

tekla 2y ago

Do you think cutting a face out of a picture and putting it on some other nude human for a wank should be a crime?

SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
I think distributing that image without the consent of the person whose face you used should be a crime. Purely private use is a harder question, but I think also a much less important one.
- superkuh 2y ago
  Do you think giving the image to a friend on an IRC channel is distribution? What about if I give a physical copy to a friend at a bar at a table? Or is it only distribution if a corporation is involved like having Facebook host the photo? What is "distribution"? What is a public space and what is a private space? Your simple solution brings in insolvable problems and incredible vagueness that will result, again, in worse problems than it "solves".
  - bashinator 2y ago
    > worse problems than it "solves". I'm going to go out on a limb and hypothesize that you're not in a demographic that is likely to be victimized by deepfake porn of yourself.
    - superkuh 2y ago
      Lacking any arguments regarding the subject of discusion one often finds the internet outrage farmer resorting to comments about the persons involved instead.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - tekla 2y ago
      You understand that "feeling victimized" is not a good argument right? Ex. I'm morbidly obese. Someone shares pictures of me (taken in a public area) and laughs at me for that. Is that a crime? I might feel like shit and victimized, but thats not actually an argument that its a crime. This sort of argument really seems like a way to try to use ick and feels versus actual logic.

superkuh 2y ago

>put me in porn of your choosing. Oh, I see the confusion. We're talking about synthetic images in this discussion. We're not talking about actual explicit photos or video of someone. So in this scenario "you" wouldn't be involved at all. Although it has been long established that using actual photos and swapping faces, etc, is perfectly legal. Just because the tools are slightly faster than photoshop does not make this a new thing. if anything, the fact that no actual photos are involved makes deepfakes even less objectionable and clearly not victimizing anyone. Technical ignorance, willful or accidental, is no excuse for advocating these extreme viewpoints in which you demand use of force against actual human people in situations where no one is harmed. Calls for organized violence like this are not acceptable.

polotics 2y ago
maybe a caveat here. Also: citation needed! Using photos is only perfectly legal if this use is within the licence agreement of the photos. as I understand it using a picture of somebody you took on the street is allowed in the sense that you can print this picture unmodified that's public domain. However taking this picture you took on the streets and make a deep fake porn out of the picture of that person is definitely not within the licence that public pictures grant you. if you take a picture of my daughter riding her bike and make a fake porn out of it with her face, don't worry I'm on your case... Same for any picture taken by a paparazzi of some prominent figure actress for example these are all licenced, good luck with the lawyers... https://finance.yahoo.com/news/scarlett-johansson-sues-ai-generator-175439964.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANFxfhbQc2WneizwdelNXhinF00HUA0RAbuVaoPn-l4nBCznP0AGA_rwMXKlhe6TPCJ9Bz0x0O0PhznKTzT_b0n8Uw4bc0dS5vdk-6opJjjI3Cp-35hxvN2D_D5-Q_DnNCVNRpD74R4Zt1kQutWDpLj0zivso6XzCoPpt5plbU_l https://finance.yahoo.com/news/scarlett-johansson-sues-ai-ge...
- superkuh 2y ago
  You're implicit assumption of commercial use here makes everything you've said invalid in most use cases discussed in this thread.

someuser2345 2y ago

> we, as humans, have a right to our likeness and to be protected from it being used in ways we disapprove of. I don't agree with that. For example, it should be perfectly legal to make caricatures of someone in order to make fun of them (i.e. political cartoons or memes), even, or especially when the person being made fun of doesn't approve. I do agree that this probably does not apply to porn though.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

CoastalCoder 2y ago

> This is an issue of privacy, not speech. I'm curious about this part of your argument. It seems to imply that the only relevant framework for analyzing this issue is the privacy angle. If that's actually the point you're making, how would you justify it? Especially when AFAICT it's pitting two apparent goods, privacy and free speech, against each other?