8 ms·

Dell leak details next-gen Windows on Arm chips

41 points by gripfx 2y ago

daghamm 2y ago
Modem standby 0.3W?? I don't think CPU change alone will make these devices super-efficient. And why is web browsing such a battery sink? Are they using an old version of edge? Is it full of random extensions?? By the way, 15 minutes into a thread about CPUs and discussion has not yet been hijacked by the fans of "that other company". Maybe HN is improving?
- askonomm 2y ago
  What are some good long battery life Windows laptops currently on market? I wouldn't need 20 hours (like macbooks have), but I'd like to get an entire work day without charging and my current experience with Windows laptops is that they last maybe 3-4 hours. Though I've also only owned mid-tier devices, so maybe that is only exclusive to top tier, not sure.
  - daghamm 2y ago
    I had have 18hrs windows RT laptops, but those were otherwise useless. A newer Microsoft surface gives you 13-16 hours depending on the model and HP, Dell and Lenovo have slim-ish laptopts in the 11-14 hrs range
  - SushiHippie 2y ago
    https://www.rtings.com/laptop/tools/table/137729 https://www.rtings.com/laptop/tools/table/137729
  - pquki4 2y ago
    Most of the official battery life numbers you see from manufacturers are like 18 hours when the reality is less than 8 hours which is just meaningless. The numbers from reviewers using benchmarks like "modern office" might not be applicable to you, but should be relatively accurate. I would advise checking some reviews and reddit posts to see what people say. Also note that this heavily depends on the CPU and screen configuration (LED or OLED). One data point here: My laptop with an AMD 7840U with FHD+ IPS screen could last 9 hours in my own testing, that's without video calls or heavy multitasking. It's a ThinkPad but there are a few on the market with the same APU. A similar test on an Asus laptop with i5-1240p high-res OLED would yield 5 hours using the same method. I know, it's annoying that there is no easy way to get a somewhat realistic estimate of the battery life on Windows laptops, while official Macbook battery life in the specs is reasonable and often accurate. Generally, you would want to get a low voltage CPU and avoid OLED screens if you want good battery life.
  - tobinfekkes 2y ago
    LG Gram
  - unsigner 2y ago
    a Lenovo Yoga Slim with a Ryzen 7840u lasts for 8-10 hours with Wifi enabled, browsing, Slack, and a text editor, with the screen brightness at around 30-40% - good enough for indoors.
  - eigenspace 2y ago
    I recently got a Framework 13 laptop and 10 hours on a charge is easily doable, especially if you put it in the low power mode. That's on Linux, but I'd assume Windows is typically smarter about conserving battery life (though maybe that's changed nowadays). I'm incredibly happy with this laptop in general.
  - dangus 2y ago
    Look for devices with the Intel Core Ultra processor family. They’re the first Intel chips that have caught up with the M1/M2/M3 family on performance per watt.
- WillAdams 2y ago
  The thing is, the previous version of Edge (before it became a re-badged Google Chrome) was quite notable for being easier on battery life, and that was marketed as an advantage for it, one which seemed to be the case in my experience. I wish it would come back, or that there was some other web browser option for Windows (guess I should try Firefox again).
Dalewyn 2y ago
>Dell is planning to refresh its XPS 13 Plus from 2022, with a touch bar on the top row of the keyboard and only two USB-C ports for I/O. If I wanted a Macbook I would get a Macbook instead of some frankenstein knockoff that can't run neither Win32 nor Mac.
- LM358 2y ago
  Yeah I find this very strange as well. Isn't this more or less exactly what Apple did 6-7 years ago which was almost universally hated?
  - pmx 2y ago
    I wonder if maybe they have implemented the touch bar in a much more useful way? The mac one was pointless and only served to reduce utility but with the right software it could have been fantastic. Some 3rd party software hacks even gave it haptic feedback (by activating the trackpads haptics) and that alone made it a million times better. Interested to see what Dell have done with it.
    - lozenge 2y ago
      Apple had the best chance of it due to making their own web browser, OS, media player, mail app, photo gallery app, etc and having close relationships with big apps like Final Cut Pro, Adobe. What chance does Dell have?
    - chucky 2y ago
      I have an XPS 13 (the current Intel version, not the ARM version obviously) and they definitely have not. In fact, I've had the touchbar replaced 3 times and the whole computer replaced once because when the touchbar gets too hot, it starts "phantom pressing" the keys on it. The replacement machine still has the issue, but it has a newer generation CPU which generally runs a bit less hot, so it's not as big an issue as it was on the previous machine.
- bingbingbing777 2y ago
  Mac and Win32 aren't operating systems.
cjk2 2y ago
Oh Dell, Windows and Qualcomm. I’d rather cut my hands off and shove the bloody stumps in a bag of salt. Have had nothing but trouble with all of them over the years.
- dannyw 2y ago
  YMMV. I have always had extremely pleasant, hassle-free, and fast support and warranty from Dell. It's not that their monitors or laptops fail more often, I've just been buying them for a decade.
  - trueismywork 2y ago
    Same here. Amazing service.
  - hug 2y ago
    As someone who has had literally thousands of Dells: fuck Dell with a rake. Second only on the chart of “companies to never buy from” to HP.
    - ZoomerCretin 2y ago
      Yep. My second Dell laptop had the screen hinge break, because they anchor the damned things in plastic, and the screen case is rarely rigid. Google "Dell laptop hinge issue" and see how many results you get, and how far back they go. At least 15 years. There's no reasonable explanation aside from planned obsolescence.
  - robin_reala 2y ago
    All the hardware I’ve had from Dell has fallen to pieces (with the exception of the first one: a 320LX from ’85[1]) but they’ve been helpful in trying to shore up the inevitable at least. [1] https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/54920/Dell-320LX/ https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/54920/Dell-320LX/
  - cjk2 2y ago
    4x dead $4000 machines in 2 years and then they leaked my personal details and downplayed it. They can get fucked.
mmaniac 2y ago
Dell will put almost anything but Ryzens in their laptops.
- duxup 2y ago
  How many options are there? Intel, AMD, now Qualcomm ... I guess you could count whatever they put in their chromebooks (if they still make those) but those are sorta specific situations. Is almost anything all of 2 other options?
wslh 2y ago
I pray for a Linux on a Dell XPS 13 with the battery duration of a MacBook Air 13/14" (and solid, without a fan). I Don't care too much about the raw power but something that doesn't feel slow.
shrubble 2y ago
If it can't run Linux or the *BSDs, it's a closed device no different than a cell phone.
- eigenspace 2y ago
  Qualcomm posted an article to their blog recently about their efforts to upstream support for their processor to the Linux kernel: https://www.qualcomm.com/developer/blog/2024/05/upstreaming-linux-kernel-support-for-the-snapdragon-x-elite https://www.qualcomm.com/developer/blog/2024/05/upstreaming-... Only time will tell how good the support is, but it's at least a start.
  - shrubble 2y ago
    That is great news, and very encouraging! Of course the bootloader / boot process has to be able to be modified as well; we'll see how good/bad Dell does with that.
    - eigenspace 2y ago
      Here's what they say about the boot process in the blog post: > The boot stack on Snapdragon X Elite supports standard UEFI-based boot. Linux boots up using devicetrees, and all standard bootloaders, including Grub and system-d boot, should just work out of the box. We use Grub to boot into Debian, and to dual-boot Windows and Debian. > We’re working closely with upstream communities on an open problem with the UEFI-based BIOS while booting with devicetrees. The problem is that, when you have more than one devicetree blob (DTB) packed into the firmware package flashed on the device, there is no standard way of selecting a devicetree to pass on to the kernel. OEMs commonly put multiple DTBs into the firmware package so it will support devices with slightly different SKUs, so we’re keen to solve this problem. (See the Embedded Open Source Summit presentation on this topic by my colleague Elliot Berman. Links below.)
uyzstvqs 2y ago
Most probably this will be Microsoft's response to Chromebooks in the classroom. Same concept but integrated with Microsoft Office, Outlook and whatever, something many schools are using on their Chromebooks already. The entire shtick of Windows is it's userbase and app library on x86. Porting your app to Android tablets makes more sense than porting to Windows on ARM, and developing a PWA web app makes more sense than that. Power-user apps (including games) will definitely stay on Windows x86 for now, with Linux x86 being it's primary alternative. This product will likely be for users who just use a web browser and want integration with Microsoft services with that, so mainly the educational field.
- someonehere 2y ago
  I can also see sales people. I know from a friend who worked at Brex that said they offered Chromebooks for people who just needed a web browser. That was mostly sales and support staff like HR.
- TiredOfLife 2y ago
  The cpu is in the same price bracket as Intel i5/i7. WOA runs all(except the ones that ship drivers like rootkits and drm) x86/64bit software.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
nerdjon 2y ago
We really are doing this "AI PC" thing I guess? I was really hoping we would just... not. Not looking forward to those ads being all over showing gimmick that most probably don't want. Hopefully we don't start seeing "AI PC Ready" parts for custom builds. Hopefully the LTSC version of Windows 11 doesn't have any of this crap in it. Also great, so the hardware will be fine. Still not convinced Microsoft can pull off ARM in any meaningful way compared to Apple. I highly doubt the entire PC market will switch over anytime soon unlike Mac.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  The only mass market ai application for the end user is probably deep fakes.

41 points by gripfx 2y ago

Modem standby 0.3W?? I don't think CPU change alone will make these devices super-efficient. And why is web browsing such a battery sink? Are they using an old version of edge? Is it full of random extensions?? By the way, 15 minutes into a thread about CPUs and discussion has not yet been hijacked by the fans of "that other company". Maybe HN is improving?

askonomm 2y ago
What are some good long battery life Windows laptops currently on market? I wouldn't need 20 hours (like macbooks have), but I'd like to get an entire work day without charging and my current experience with Windows laptops is that they last maybe 3-4 hours. Though I've also only owned mid-tier devices, so maybe that is only exclusive to top tier, not sure.
- daghamm 2y ago
  I had have 18hrs windows RT laptops, but those were otherwise useless. A newer Microsoft surface gives you 13-16 hours depending on the model and HP, Dell and Lenovo have slim-ish laptopts in the 11-14 hrs range
- SushiHippie 2y ago
  https://www.rtings.com/laptop/tools/table/137729 https://www.rtings.com/laptop/tools/table/137729
- pquki4 2y ago
  Most of the official battery life numbers you see from manufacturers are like 18 hours when the reality is less than 8 hours which is just meaningless. The numbers from reviewers using benchmarks like "modern office" might not be applicable to you, but should be relatively accurate. I would advise checking some reviews and reddit posts to see what people say. Also note that this heavily depends on the CPU and screen configuration (LED or OLED). One data point here: My laptop with an AMD 7840U with FHD+ IPS screen could last 9 hours in my own testing, that's without video calls or heavy multitasking. It's a ThinkPad but there are a few on the market with the same APU. A similar test on an Asus laptop with i5-1240p high-res OLED would yield 5 hours using the same method. I know, it's annoying that there is no easy way to get a somewhat realistic estimate of the battery life on Windows laptops, while official Macbook battery life in the specs is reasonable and often accurate. Generally, you would want to get a low voltage CPU and avoid OLED screens if you want good battery life.
- tobinfekkes 2y ago
  LG Gram
- unsigner 2y ago
  a Lenovo Yoga Slim with a Ryzen 7840u lasts for 8-10 hours with Wifi enabled, browsing, Slack, and a text editor, with the screen brightness at around 30-40% - good enough for indoors.
- eigenspace 2y ago
  I recently got a Framework 13 laptop and 10 hours on a charge is easily doable, especially if you put it in the low power mode. That's on Linux, but I'd assume Windows is typically smarter about conserving battery life (though maybe that's changed nowadays). I'm incredibly happy with this laptop in general.
- dangus 2y ago
  Look for devices with the Intel Core Ultra processor family. They’re the first Intel chips that have caught up with the M1/M2/M3 family on performance per watt.
WillAdams 2y ago
The thing is, the previous version of Edge (before it became a re-badged Google Chrome) was quite notable for being easier on battery life, and that was marketed as an advantage for it, one which seemed to be the case in my experience. I wish it would come back, or that there was some other web browser option for Windows (guess I should try Firefox again).

Dalewyn 2y ago

>Dell is planning to refresh its XPS 13 Plus from 2022, with a touch bar on the top row of the keyboard and only two USB-C ports for I/O. If I wanted a Macbook I would get a Macbook instead of some frankenstein knockoff that can't run neither Win32 nor Mac.

LM358 2y ago
Yeah I find this very strange as well. Isn't this more or less exactly what Apple did 6-7 years ago which was almost universally hated?
- pmx 2y ago
  I wonder if maybe they have implemented the touch bar in a much more useful way? The mac one was pointless and only served to reduce utility but with the right software it could have been fantastic. Some 3rd party software hacks even gave it haptic feedback (by activating the trackpads haptics) and that alone made it a million times better. Interested to see what Dell have done with it.
  - lozenge 2y ago
    Apple had the best chance of it due to making their own web browser, OS, media player, mail app, photo gallery app, etc and having close relationships with big apps like Final Cut Pro, Adobe. What chance does Dell have?
  - chucky 2y ago
    I have an XPS 13 (the current Intel version, not the ARM version obviously) and they definitely have not. In fact, I've had the touchbar replaced 3 times and the whole computer replaced once because when the touchbar gets too hot, it starts "phantom pressing" the keys on it. The replacement machine still has the issue, but it has a newer generation CPU which generally runs a bit less hot, so it's not as big an issue as it was on the previous machine.
bingbingbing777 2y ago
Mac and Win32 aren't operating systems.

cjk2 2y ago

Oh Dell, Windows and Qualcomm. I’d rather cut my hands off and shove the bloody stumps in a bag of salt. Have had nothing but trouble with all of them over the years.

dannyw 2y ago
YMMV. I have always had extremely pleasant, hassle-free, and fast support and warranty from Dell. It's not that their monitors or laptops fail more often, I've just been buying them for a decade.
- trueismywork 2y ago
  Same here. Amazing service.
- hug 2y ago
  As someone who has had literally thousands of Dells: fuck Dell with a rake. Second only on the chart of “companies to never buy from” to HP.
  - ZoomerCretin 2y ago
    Yep. My second Dell laptop had the screen hinge break, because they anchor the damned things in plastic, and the screen case is rarely rigid. Google "Dell laptop hinge issue" and see how many results you get, and how far back they go. At least 15 years. There's no reasonable explanation aside from planned obsolescence.
- robin_reala 2y ago
  All the hardware I’ve had from Dell has fallen to pieces (with the exception of the first one: a 320LX from ’85[1]) but they’ve been helpful in trying to shore up the inevitable at least. [1] https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/54920/Dell-320LX/ https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/54920/Dell-320LX/
- cjk2 2y ago
  4x dead $4000 machines in 2 years and then they leaked my personal details and downplayed it. They can get fucked.

mmaniac 2y ago

Dell will put almost anything but Ryzens in their laptops.

duxup 2y ago
How many options are there? Intel, AMD, now Qualcomm ... I guess you could count whatever they put in their chromebooks (if they still make those) but those are sorta specific situations. Is almost anything all of 2 other options?

wslh 2y ago

I pray for a Linux on a Dell XPS 13 with the battery duration of a MacBook Air 13/14" (and solid, without a fan). I Don't care too much about the raw power but something that doesn't feel slow.

shrubble 2y ago

If it can't run Linux or the *BSDs, it's a closed device no different than a cell phone.

eigenspace 2y ago
Qualcomm posted an article to their blog recently about their efforts to upstream support for their processor to the Linux kernel: https://www.qualcomm.com/developer/blog/2024/05/upstreaming-linux-kernel-support-for-the-snapdragon-x-elite https://www.qualcomm.com/developer/blog/2024/05/upstreaming-... Only time will tell how good the support is, but it's at least a start.
- shrubble 2y ago
  That is great news, and very encouraging! Of course the bootloader / boot process has to be able to be modified as well; we'll see how good/bad Dell does with that.
  - eigenspace 2y ago
    Here's what they say about the boot process in the blog post: > The boot stack on Snapdragon X Elite supports standard UEFI-based boot. Linux boots up using devicetrees, and all standard bootloaders, including Grub and system-d boot, should just work out of the box. We use Grub to boot into Debian, and to dual-boot Windows and Debian. > We’re working closely with upstream communities on an open problem with the UEFI-based BIOS while booting with devicetrees. The problem is that, when you have more than one devicetree blob (DTB) packed into the firmware package flashed on the device, there is no standard way of selecting a devicetree to pass on to the kernel. OEMs commonly put multiple DTBs into the firmware package so it will support devices with slightly different SKUs, so we’re keen to solve this problem. (See the Embedded Open Source Summit presentation on this topic by my colleague Elliot Berman. Links below.)

uyzstvqs 2y ago

Most probably this will be Microsoft's response to Chromebooks in the classroom. Same concept but integrated with Microsoft Office, Outlook and whatever, something many schools are using on their Chromebooks already. The entire shtick of Windows is it's userbase and app library on x86. Porting your app to Android tablets makes more sense than porting to Windows on ARM, and developing a PWA web app makes more sense than that. Power-user apps (including games) will definitely stay on Windows x86 for now, with Linux x86 being it's primary alternative. This product will likely be for users who just use a web browser and want integration with Microsoft services with that, so mainly the educational field.

someonehere 2y ago
I can also see sales people. I know from a friend who worked at Brex that said they offered Chromebooks for people who just needed a web browser. That was mostly sales and support staff like HR.
TiredOfLife 2y ago
The cpu is in the same price bracket as Intel i5/i7. WOA runs all(except the ones that ship drivers like rootkits and drm) x86/64bit software.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

nerdjon 2y ago

We really are doing this "AI PC" thing I guess? I was really hoping we would just... not. Not looking forward to those ads being all over showing gimmick that most probably don't want. Hopefully we don't start seeing "AI PC Ready" parts for custom builds. Hopefully the LTSC version of Windows 11 doesn't have any of this crap in it. Also great, so the hardware will be fine. Still not convinced Microsoft can pull off ARM in any meaningful way compared to Apple. I highly doubt the entire PC market will switch over anytime soon unlike Mac.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
The only mass market ai application for the end user is probably deep fakes.