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My boss is currently on a visit to Saudi to drum up business ... the last 12 months has been nothing short of the full on capitulation of western businesses to

My boss is currently on a visit to Saudi to drum up business ... the last 12 months has been nothing short of the full on capitulation of western businesses to Saudi money ... all concept of ethics has been completely dropped or 'explained away'.

autoexec 2y ago
[flagged]
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  Has this always been true of the decision makers at all corporations for all time? I suspect societal morals do still carry some weight. And the corps do listen if the backlash is loud enough.
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    Not really and not all companies are like this even today. E.g. I knew someone who ran a business repairing some equipment for other businesses. He wasn't hustling. He wasn't interested in expanding globally. He wasn't battling competitors or doing anything like that. He was friends with his clients and workers, and ran a business that brought in enough to pay everyone fairly and that was that. Probably 25 workers I'd guess, if that. Of course its different when you are a public company or take on a lot of investor money.
- nickff 2y ago
  Most corporations are not run by psychopaths (even the big ones); the idea that they are has become a sort of meme, with little evidence in its favor, and a great deal against it. There's even a book about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Psychopath_Test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Psychopath_Test
  - redserk 2y ago
    Perhaps psychopath might be an exaggeration here but the primary desire for many is to grow income. The options chosen generally favor the path of least/resistance. Until there's a law mandating morality in business decision making, why should a business entity care? Perhaps it might find comfort in using morality as a differentiator, but the companies that primarily focus on morality are the exception, not the norm.
    - autoexec 2y ago
      One company actual advertised that they were looking for a psychopaths to fill their new business media sales executive position because they wanted someone who was money driven and willing to do "whatever it takes". https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/psychopath-job-advert-radio-relations-sales-executive-listing-a7369471.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/psychopath-...
    - tomcar288 2y ago
      i don't think you'll find widespread agreement on what's moral or not. what's moral for you maybe abhorrent to someone else. there's not necessarily any absolute good or bad, it's all a matter of perspective.
      - anigbrowl 2y ago
        Consider the lamentably frequent situation where a corporation does something that would get a human person sent to prison or be subjected to a severe fine, but escapes with a token punishment. In some cases corporations become repeat offenders because the statutory penalties, though still for an individual, are small enough for a corporation that they can be accepted as a cost of doing business.
      - redserk 2y ago
        Sure, morality is subjective to an extent but not every company is Ben and Jerry’s or REI, two companies that are the poster-children of the more-ethical side of corporations.
- blacksmith_tb 2y ago
  The question is about the 'pretending' - if they pollute less or exploit their employees less to make more money based on the good PR, is that 'pretending'? I would say no, if we're interested in results more than motivation.
  - autoexec 2y ago
    It's still pretending. Sometimes it works out for us, but don't forget that as soon as they feel that they'll make more money by polluting more or exploiting workers more they'll do those things. Be cautious about putting your faith in an image spun by PR campaigns and advertisers. Corporations have shown time and again that they're perfectly happy to lie, greenwash, and spend huge amounts of money to keep up their PR appearances while not always living up the that image. If we're interested in results, we need better transparency and accountability than what we have. Too often what we get is just a comforting fantasy.
    - blacksmith_tb 2y ago
      That's fair, but if they backslide we can at least serve up bad PR to bring them back into line, possibly? I agree though that there's always the chance they'll calculate the savings from being evil out weigh the costs of bad PR...
yieldcrv 2y ago
or because whataboutisms are extremely accurate criticisms of trying to blacklist a whole country over a matter unrelated to investment and revenues when your country or "the West" has objectionable things too, often the same things
- LightBug1 2y ago
  You're pretty heavily downvoted, but I agree to some extent. Really, I'm just pointing out how marked the trend has been. The line in the sand with Saudi has just blown away in the wind ... of perceived easy money. I don't agree with the point on blacklisting countries. We boycotted South African goods back in the day when were were pushing for the fall of Apartheid. And I'll be boycotting Israeli goods right now. And I'd stop my boss working with Saudi if I could. Bring the grey'ness ...
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    I’m sure I would have a different opinion if I was around for the consumer South Africa boycott and feeling like that succeeded but nothing remotely close to that has occurred in 30 years and trade is more interlinked as not to really affect countries the same way even if it did occur with that in mind, how I feel is that harboring that sentiment requires having major blind spots about all the other places you do business with. and the disdain is 100% misapplied to other people or your employer. For example, its one thing if its the Prince’s investment fund, its another thing if its a random private equity fund or private office in Saudi Arabia. The boycotter’s broad, cognitively negligent, generalizations seem far more insensitive than the person disregarding their complaints about human rights abuses.
    - data_maan 2y ago
      So you don't feel it is an issue, when you say "prince fund bad, random fund good" that it is fraught with all kinds of ethical issues to bring money and knowhow into a country that has public beheadings?
      - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dyauspitr 2y ago
I humbly suggest that ethics are not universal but heavily culturally dependent.
- tomcar288 2y ago
  absolutely. it's a matter of perspective. thinking that you and only you have the "moral" high road, just leads to oppression. good and bad are relative to who's making the judgement
- rayiner 2y ago
  That’s true. And how the Saudis choose to run their society is none of America’s business. The feeling that America is intruding into their societies is in fact a huge source of anger in the Muslim world. But nothing about the principle that societies are entitled to decide for themselves how to govern themselves requires people in America to accept Americans doing business with other people who have very different values. That’s a completely different matter.
  - dyauspitr 2y ago
    That would be fine if we didn’t selectively pick which countries we apply those rules to. China is an ethical nightmare but we have and continue to do business with them, why change that when it comes to the Middle East.
    - smallmancontrov 2y ago
      What makes you think people who disapprove of getting in bed with the Middle East approve of getting in bed with China? Did you ask them? Or did you want so badly to accuse them of hypocrisy that you simply assumed it to be the case?
      - gklitz 2y ago
        There aren’t any people left in business in the US who don’t approve of “getting in bed with china” - this message was made in china, like your shirt, your shorts, your socks, and so on snd so on.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
Best to find another job that doesn't enable human rights abuses or enable despotic regimes that whip women if they dare to drive car and import slave labor. Edit: It's a gray area of engineering ethics that can only remain intact by avoiding even the appearance of impropriety. If it feels bad, then it's work or business best avoided.
- fennecbutt 2y ago
  Or throw gay men to their deaths from buildings. The world is a horrible place.
data_maan 2y ago
Even Schmidbauer is working and endorsing KAUST now
Log_out_ 2y ago
Well, it was like that all the times, the pr shield was just better in china.

autoexec 2y ago

[flagged]

paulryanrogers 2y ago
Has this always been true of the decision makers at all corporations for all time? I suspect societal morals do still carry some weight. And the corps do listen if the backlash is loud enough.
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  Not really and not all companies are like this even today. E.g. I knew someone who ran a business repairing some equipment for other businesses. He wasn't hustling. He wasn't interested in expanding globally. He wasn't battling competitors or doing anything like that. He was friends with his clients and workers, and ran a business that brought in enough to pay everyone fairly and that was that. Probably 25 workers I'd guess, if that. Of course its different when you are a public company or take on a lot of investor money.
nickff 2y ago
Most corporations are not run by psychopaths (even the big ones); the idea that they are has become a sort of meme, with little evidence in its favor, and a great deal against it. There's even a book about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Psychopath_Test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Psychopath_Test
- redserk 2y ago
  Perhaps psychopath might be an exaggeration here but the primary desire for many is to grow income. The options chosen generally favor the path of least/resistance. Until there's a law mandating morality in business decision making, why should a business entity care? Perhaps it might find comfort in using morality as a differentiator, but the companies that primarily focus on morality are the exception, not the norm.
  - autoexec 2y ago
    One company actual advertised that they were looking for a psychopaths to fill their new business media sales executive position because they wanted someone who was money driven and willing to do "whatever it takes". https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/psychopath-job-advert-radio-relations-sales-executive-listing-a7369471.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/psychopath-...
  - tomcar288 2y ago
    i don't think you'll find widespread agreement on what's moral or not. what's moral for you maybe abhorrent to someone else. there's not necessarily any absolute good or bad, it's all a matter of perspective.
    - anigbrowl 2y ago
      Consider the lamentably frequent situation where a corporation does something that would get a human person sent to prison or be subjected to a severe fine, but escapes with a token punishment. In some cases corporations become repeat offenders because the statutory penalties, though still for an individual, are small enough for a corporation that they can be accepted as a cost of doing business.
    - redserk 2y ago
      Sure, morality is subjective to an extent but not every company is Ben and Jerry’s or REI, two companies that are the poster-children of the more-ethical side of corporations.
blacksmith_tb 2y ago
The question is about the 'pretending' - if they pollute less or exploit their employees less to make more money based on the good PR, is that 'pretending'? I would say no, if we're interested in results more than motivation.
- autoexec 2y ago
  It's still pretending. Sometimes it works out for us, but don't forget that as soon as they feel that they'll make more money by polluting more or exploiting workers more they'll do those things. Be cautious about putting your faith in an image spun by PR campaigns and advertisers. Corporations have shown time and again that they're perfectly happy to lie, greenwash, and spend huge amounts of money to keep up their PR appearances while not always living up the that image. If we're interested in results, we need better transparency and accountability than what we have. Too often what we get is just a comforting fantasy.
  - blacksmith_tb 2y ago
    That's fair, but if they backslide we can at least serve up bad PR to bring them back into line, possibly? I agree though that there's always the chance they'll calculate the savings from being evil out weigh the costs of bad PR...

yieldcrv 2y ago

or because whataboutisms are extremely accurate criticisms of trying to blacklist a whole country over a matter unrelated to investment and revenues when your country or "the West" has objectionable things too, often the same things

LightBug1 2y ago
You're pretty heavily downvoted, but I agree to some extent. Really, I'm just pointing out how marked the trend has been. The line in the sand with Saudi has just blown away in the wind ... of perceived easy money. I don't agree with the point on blacklisting countries. We boycotted South African goods back in the day when were were pushing for the fall of Apartheid. And I'll be boycotting Israeli goods right now. And I'd stop my boss working with Saudi if I could. Bring the grey'ness ...
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  I’m sure I would have a different opinion if I was around for the consumer South Africa boycott and feeling like that succeeded but nothing remotely close to that has occurred in 30 years and trade is more interlinked as not to really affect countries the same way even if it did occur with that in mind, how I feel is that harboring that sentiment requires having major blind spots about all the other places you do business with. and the disdain is 100% misapplied to other people or your employer. For example, its one thing if its the Prince’s investment fund, its another thing if its a random private equity fund or private office in Saudi Arabia. The boycotter’s broad, cognitively negligent, generalizations seem far more insensitive than the person disregarding their complaints about human rights abuses.
  - data_maan 2y ago
    So you don't feel it is an issue, when you say "prince fund bad, random fund good" that it is fraught with all kinds of ethical issues to bring money and knowhow into a country that has public beheadings?
    - 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

dyauspitr 2y ago

I humbly suggest that ethics are not universal but heavily culturally dependent.

tomcar288 2y ago
absolutely. it's a matter of perspective. thinking that you and only you have the "moral" high road, just leads to oppression. good and bad are relative to who's making the judgement
rayiner 2y ago
That’s true. And how the Saudis choose to run their society is none of America’s business. The feeling that America is intruding into their societies is in fact a huge source of anger in the Muslim world. But nothing about the principle that societies are entitled to decide for themselves how to govern themselves requires people in America to accept Americans doing business with other people who have very different values. That’s a completely different matter.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  That would be fine if we didn’t selectively pick which countries we apply those rules to. China is an ethical nightmare but we have and continue to do business with them, why change that when it comes to the Middle East.
  - smallmancontrov 2y ago
    What makes you think people who disapprove of getting in bed with the Middle East approve of getting in bed with China? Did you ask them? Or did you want so badly to accuse them of hypocrisy that you simply assumed it to be the case?
    - gklitz 2y ago
      There aren’t any people left in business in the US who don’t approve of “getting in bed with china” - this message was made in china, like your shirt, your shorts, your socks, and so on snd so on.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago

Best to find another job that doesn't enable human rights abuses or enable despotic regimes that whip women if they dare to drive car and import slave labor. Edit: It's a gray area of engineering ethics that can only remain intact by avoiding even the appearance of impropriety. If it feels bad, then it's work or business best avoided.

fennecbutt 2y ago
Or throw gay men to their deaths from buildings. The world is a horrible place.

data_maan 2y ago

Even Schmidbauer is working and endorsing KAUST now

Log_out_ 2y ago

Well, it was like that all the times, the pr shield was just better in china.