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Thank you for this. I, alongside seemingly everyone else, get frustrated that the OS doesn’t have more complex features. But for most of our moms, it’s probabl

Thank you for this. I, alongside seemingly everyone else, get frustrated that the OS doesn’t have more complex features. But for most of our moms, it’s probably better for them. The rest of us have macOS, Linux, etc.

Rinzler89 2y ago
Why does it need to be either one or the other? There's absolutely no reason the iPad can't have both, as in a simple kiosk mode for old people to call someone, and then a "Power-user" toggle in the setting for those who want to enable the more complex features.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ukuina 2y ago
  They tried that with Stage Manager and it's a mess.
  - sneak 2y ago
    Stage Manager doesn’t really address any of the issues raised by the article.
  - kcplate 2y ago
    On the iPad I think the screen size makes stage manager unusable…but I have found stage manager hugely useful on my Mac with an ultra wide monitor along side Rectangle windows manager
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    Just because they tried something one time and it failed, does that mean there's no room to try to do better?
- nickpp 2y ago
  Because app developers will never fully support two interaction modes. They will focus on one while the other will be an after-thought.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    Why would app developers need to support that? Just let the iPad run MacOS apps. It has the same CPU after all.
    - nickpp 2y ago
      Because touch-based and mouse/trackpad based UIs are different enough to need separate support. An app optimized for one will look&feel much worse on the other. Remember Windows 8?
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        Does the iPad not support a keyboard and mouse to be used like a laptop?
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        nickpp 2y ago
        By default it comes with neither and most iPad users probably don’t add them.
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        That's wasn't the point. And what if I want to add them? Most likely other users would to if the SW support was there and you could run Mac apps on the iPad once you connected the keyboard and mouse.
        nickpp 2y ago
- VyseofArcadia 2y ago
  Why do old people need an iPhone or iPad just to call someone? My mother in law insists on having the newest iPhone every year. It spends 95% of its time in the bottom of her purse, turned off. 1% of time is phone calls. The other 4% of its time is my MIL complaining about how complex it is while she laboriously dials a number. Realistically, she should just buy a dumb phone[0]. A complex tool like a smart phone or a computer has a duty to provide its user with the capabilities they need, even if providing such capabilities requires a complex UI. You can only make something as user friendly as possible. After a certain point, making something easier to use requires you to remove features. This is why professional software, like CAD software or DAWs or programming languages, has a leaning curve. It is a tool that you are expected to have to learn to use. If your tool is too complex for your needs, return it and buy a simpler tool. Buying an iPad or iPhone just to make phone calls is like buying a stand mixer with all of the attachments when all you needed was a wooden spoon. [0] Except that the iPhone is a status symbol now
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >Why do old people need an iPhone or iPad just to call someone? Nobody said they do need it, it's just the HN trope that Apple devices are "so easy to use" that they'd somehow be better for the elderly, because devices form Windows and Android tend to nag you with more pop-ups and complex questions.
lukeschlather 2y ago
I was on Zoom with my mother playing cards recently. She often has trouble with accidentally closing the card game. I don't see how this problem could possibly be improved if it actually were impossible to have the card game open at the same time as Zoom. She would need half a dozen iPads. (Of course, her solution often is to use a dedicated device for the card game and a dedicated device for Zoom, but this is an expensive solution for something the OS could be designed to handle well, and even if you can afford it it's a mediocre to bad solution.)
- bmacho 2y ago
  A simple mode can have togglable features as well (and all made simple). You turn on simple mode, then you turn on split screen. All controls optimized to be simple, discoverable, and no hidden controls (as opposed to a normal mode, where all controls should be fast, intuitive, and keep you in a flow).
CJefferson 2y ago
iPhones are crazy now, there are so many types of interactions, press, hard press, double press, swipes in different directions. Press a program too hard and suddently icons start wobbling, the interface seems very undiscoverable to me. My parents don't want any of these features, and to be honest I don't really want them either.
- at_a_remove 2y ago
  Having searched for and not found a reasonable cheat sheet, I made my own cheat sheet of all of the "gestures," laminated it, set it down for my mother. She still couldn't get it. I think the gestures are just not a great way to go for the elderly, for a few reasons. First, gestures are not explicit, you have to discover them, be told about them, see them used by someone else. Second (and this one deserves subclassing) is motor control. Finger-tapping speed, for one, declines notably with age. Fine motor control, for the gestures, can also be impaired with age. Third, there's a lack of feedback when using gestures: no haptics, no titles to relay during phone calls, no "you just closed this program by swiping up!"
  - swozey 2y ago
    You should post the image if you have it available, that'd be nice to have. I have no idea what gestures I'm missing out on.
- swozey 2y ago
  I'm on my 1st iphone after decades with Android and it's crazy how many secret gestures or taps there are with nothing telling you about them until you accidentally trigger them or look up how to do something. Maybe my Samsungs had a lot of gestures I wasn't aware of but I feel like most things on the phone were very intuitive. Example, to end an incoming call and not just mute the ringtone you need to hit the power button. I didn't know about this for weeks and would drive around annoyed at a phone call ringing (but muted) in my car because it would stop my music playing. On Android the buttons are right on the screen, I forget exactly but it's something like swipe left to mute, right to decline, etc. I had to actually google "how to decline phone call on iphone" awhile back.. push the power button. If Android did that I'm pretty sure there'd be an arrow saying "PUSH THIS TO DECLINE." And people in this post are talking about doing 3 finger taps. I didn't even know that was a thing.. I'll never forget the first time I accidentally turned on my flashlight at a dark movie theater and panicked because I hadn't learned that you can turn it on/off in the pull down bar yet. I think I had it on some button shortcut that if I hit a few times it'd turn on, and I didn't know what button I'd hit.

Rinzler89 2y ago

Why does it need to be either one or the other? There's absolutely no reason the iPad can't have both, as in a simple kiosk mode for old people to call someone, and then a "Power-user" toggle in the setting for those who want to enable the more complex features.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ukuina 2y ago
They tried that with Stage Manager and it's a mess.
- sneak 2y ago
  Stage Manager doesn’t really address any of the issues raised by the article.
- kcplate 2y ago
  On the iPad I think the screen size makes stage manager unusable…but I have found stage manager hugely useful on my Mac with an ultra wide monitor along side Rectangle windows manager
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  Just because they tried something one time and it failed, does that mean there's no room to try to do better?
nickpp 2y ago
Because app developers will never fully support two interaction modes. They will focus on one while the other will be an after-thought.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  Why would app developers need to support that? Just let the iPad run MacOS apps. It has the same CPU after all.
  - nickpp 2y ago
    Because touch-based and mouse/trackpad based UIs are different enough to need separate support. An app optimized for one will look&feel much worse on the other. Remember Windows 8?
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      Does the iPad not support a keyboard and mouse to be used like a laptop?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - nickpp 2y ago
        By default it comes with neither and most iPad users probably don’t add them.
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        That's wasn't the point. And what if I want to add them? Most likely other users would to if the SW support was there and you could run Mac apps on the iPad once you connected the keyboard and mouse.
        nickpp 2y ago
VyseofArcadia 2y ago
Why do old people need an iPhone or iPad just to call someone? My mother in law insists on having the newest iPhone every year. It spends 95% of its time in the bottom of her purse, turned off. 1% of time is phone calls. The other 4% of its time is my MIL complaining about how complex it is while she laboriously dials a number. Realistically, she should just buy a dumb phone[0]. A complex tool like a smart phone or a computer has a duty to provide its user with the capabilities they need, even if providing such capabilities requires a complex UI. You can only make something as user friendly as possible. After a certain point, making something easier to use requires you to remove features. This is why professional software, like CAD software or DAWs or programming languages, has a leaning curve. It is a tool that you are expected to have to learn to use. If your tool is too complex for your needs, return it and buy a simpler tool. Buying an iPad or iPhone just to make phone calls is like buying a stand mixer with all of the attachments when all you needed was a wooden spoon. [0] Except that the iPhone is a status symbol now
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >Why do old people need an iPhone or iPad just to call someone? Nobody said they do need it, it's just the HN trope that Apple devices are "so easy to use" that they'd somehow be better for the elderly, because devices form Windows and Android tend to nag you with more pop-ups and complex questions.

lukeschlather 2y ago

I was on Zoom with my mother playing cards recently. She often has trouble with accidentally closing the card game. I don't see how this problem could possibly be improved if it actually were impossible to have the card game open at the same time as Zoom. She would need half a dozen iPads. (Of course, her solution often is to use a dedicated device for the card game and a dedicated device for Zoom, but this is an expensive solution for something the OS could be designed to handle well, and even if you can afford it it's a mediocre to bad solution.)

bmacho 2y ago
A simple mode can have togglable features as well (and all made simple). You turn on simple mode, then you turn on split screen. All controls optimized to be simple, discoverable, and no hidden controls (as opposed to a normal mode, where all controls should be fast, intuitive, and keep you in a flow).

CJefferson 2y ago

iPhones are crazy now, there are so many types of interactions, press, hard press, double press, swipes in different directions. Press a program too hard and suddently icons start wobbling, the interface seems very undiscoverable to me. My parents don't want any of these features, and to be honest I don't really want them either.

at_a_remove 2y ago
Having searched for and not found a reasonable cheat sheet, I made my own cheat sheet of all of the "gestures," laminated it, set it down for my mother. She still couldn't get it. I think the gestures are just not a great way to go for the elderly, for a few reasons. First, gestures are not explicit, you have to discover them, be told about them, see them used by someone else. Second (and this one deserves subclassing) is motor control. Finger-tapping speed, for one, declines notably with age. Fine motor control, for the gestures, can also be impaired with age. Third, there's a lack of feedback when using gestures: no haptics, no titles to relay during phone calls, no "you just closed this program by swiping up!"
- swozey 2y ago
  You should post the image if you have it available, that'd be nice to have. I have no idea what gestures I'm missing out on.
swozey 2y ago
I'm on my 1st iphone after decades with Android and it's crazy how many secret gestures or taps there are with nothing telling you about them until you accidentally trigger them or look up how to do something. Maybe my Samsungs had a lot of gestures I wasn't aware of but I feel like most things on the phone were very intuitive. Example, to end an incoming call and not just mute the ringtone you need to hit the power button. I didn't know about this for weeks and would drive around annoyed at a phone call ringing (but muted) in my car because it would stop my music playing. On Android the buttons are right on the screen, I forget exactly but it's something like swipe left to mute, right to decline, etc. I had to actually google "how to decline phone call on iphone" awhile back.. push the power button. If Android did that I'm pretty sure there'd be an arrow saying "PUSH THIS TO DECLINE." And people in this post are talking about doing 3 finger taps. I didn't even know that was a thing.. I'll never forget the first time I accidentally turned on my flashlight at a dark movie theater and panicked because I hadn't learned that you can turn it on/off in the pull down bar yet. I think I had it on some button shortcut that if I hit a few times it'd turn on, and I didn't know what button I'd hit.