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Nobody's even been able to offer evidence that these apps are somehow bypassing iOS and Android permission systems to listen in on the microphone in the backgro

Nobody's even been able to offer evidence that these apps are somehow bypassing iOS and Android permission systems to listen in on the microphone in the background without the OS itself knowing. It's all just really dumb fearmongering that ultimately hurts the credibility of privacy advocates as a whole. The sad thing is, these companies are collecting mass amounts of sensitive data and using it to drive ads, and we should be doing more about it. There's absolutely no reason to fabricate nonsense like this, the reality is already terrifying enough to creep people out.

imglorp 2y ago
Maybe not those devices in particular, but there are plenty of terms of service and spokespeople on the record saying utterances are captured and passed on to third parties. One TV company CEO famously said you should leave the room to have a private conversation.
dataflow 2y ago
> Nobody's even been able to offer evidence that these apps are somehow bypassing iOS and Android permission systems Maybe a lot of the folks this happens to haven't denied microphone permission? Or maybe someone around them hasn't? Facebook has a calling feature, chances are people (or others around them) have given it access without realizing it. I have certainly caught Facebook Messenger snooping on my location when it had no business to, merely because I had granted the permission days ago when sharing my location with my friend, and forgotten to deny it again. It spooked me out and made me realize how they trick you into sharing info you didn't intend. I don't see why they wouldn't opportunistically exploit mic permissions just the same. Hell, that might be why they created the calling feature in the first place!
- olyjohn 2y ago
  Of course this is how they do it. They trick you into installing software for one purpose, and install other shit along with it. This is how spyware has worked for the last 30 years. Did anybody actually go out and install Bonzai Buddy or all those fucking toolbars in IE? Of course not!
  - echoangle 2y ago
    And how do they trick the OS into not displaying this to users? At least iOS has indicators for camera, microphone and location. How do they access these hardware features without making the indicators show up?
    - dataflow 2y ago
      > And how do they trick the OS into not displaying this to users What if they only do it while the display is off? Are users likely to notice it after turning the phone back on?
      - echoangle 2y ago
        I'm pretty sure a normal iOS app can't start a recording while it is not open (which also applies when the phone is locked). And even if they could, at least some people would notice when there are billions of iOS devices around, that's a bit risky to just hope nobody sees the indicator.
        dataflow 2y ago
        I was thinking Android actually, not iOS, but good to know.
- api 2y ago
  Is there any chance an accelerometer or other sensor could be used to pick up voice? It wouldn’t have to be great quality if you are searching for keywords. If you miss a few that’s fine since you are going for aggregates here. What about EM field detectors? Voice vibrates things which shows up indirectly. Modern phones have numerous sensors. Edit: one interesting paper found after some searching: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2212.12151 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2212.12151
  - 2cynykyl 2y ago
    This is a really interesting idea! Wow. I love when I hear something that totally filps my worldview. Sensor fusion and enough AI could almost certainly do this.
- babypuncher 2y ago
  At least on iOS, things like microphone permissions are opt-in rather than opt-out. iOS also displays an icon prominently at the top of the screen whenever an app is using that permission, and regularly reminds users when they leave an app running with these permissions in the background, so it's kind of hard to miss when it is happening.

imglorp 2y ago

Maybe not those devices in particular, but there are plenty of terms of service and spokespeople on the record saying utterances are captured and passed on to third parties. One TV company CEO famously said you should leave the room to have a private conversation.

dataflow 2y ago

> Nobody's even been able to offer evidence that these apps are somehow bypassing iOS and Android permission systems Maybe a lot of the folks this happens to haven't denied microphone permission? Or maybe someone around them hasn't? Facebook has a calling feature, chances are people (or others around them) have given it access without realizing it. I have certainly caught Facebook Messenger snooping on my location when it had no business to, merely because I had granted the permission days ago when sharing my location with my friend, and forgotten to deny it again. It spooked me out and made me realize how they trick you into sharing info you didn't intend. I don't see why they wouldn't opportunistically exploit mic permissions just the same. Hell, that might be why they created the calling feature in the first place!

olyjohn 2y ago
Of course this is how they do it. They trick you into installing software for one purpose, and install other shit along with it. This is how spyware has worked for the last 30 years. Did anybody actually go out and install Bonzai Buddy or all those fucking toolbars in IE? Of course not!
- echoangle 2y ago
  And how do they trick the OS into not displaying this to users? At least iOS has indicators for camera, microphone and location. How do they access these hardware features without making the indicators show up?
  - dataflow 2y ago
    > And how do they trick the OS into not displaying this to users What if they only do it while the display is off? Are users likely to notice it after turning the phone back on?
    - echoangle 2y ago
      I'm pretty sure a normal iOS app can't start a recording while it is not open (which also applies when the phone is locked). And even if they could, at least some people would notice when there are billions of iOS devices around, that's a bit risky to just hope nobody sees the indicator.
      - dataflow 2y ago
        I was thinking Android actually, not iOS, but good to know.
api 2y ago
Is there any chance an accelerometer or other sensor could be used to pick up voice? It wouldn’t have to be great quality if you are searching for keywords. If you miss a few that’s fine since you are going for aggregates here. What about EM field detectors? Voice vibrates things which shows up indirectly. Modern phones have numerous sensors. Edit: one interesting paper found after some searching: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2212.12151 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2212.12151
- 2cynykyl 2y ago
  This is a really interesting idea! Wow. I love when I hear something that totally filps my worldview. Sensor fusion and enough AI could almost certainly do this.
babypuncher 2y ago
At least on iOS, things like microphone permissions are opt-in rather than opt-out. iOS also displays an icon prominently at the top of the screen whenever an app is using that permission, and regularly reminds users when they leave an app running with these permissions in the background, so it's kind of hard to miss when it is happening.