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> Although, Yeltsin was already a liberalizing reformer. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was playing it up a bit. I don't think so. People don't realize how bad

> Although, Yeltsin was already a liberalizing reformer. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was playing it up a bit. I don't think so. People don't realize how bad it was in the Soviet Union. There's a story of two hockey players that came to the NHL. One went to the grocery store, he was completely taken back by how much was there, especially meat. He thought it was a mistake and didn't want to miss the opportunity so he bought it all up. He called his friend who also recently defected to the NLH, and his friend said "Same thing happened here!"

agumonkey 2y ago
Also, it's easy to take basic necessities for granted. Only when you experienced hunger you realise how having plenty of affordable food is a luxury.
brightball 2y ago
People used to tell stories of visiting Russia and having people try to buy their blue jeans off of them while walking down the street.
- toss1 2y ago
  Yes, can confirm. I personally know multiple people who have had that exact experience; one just mentioned it last weekend. If they knew in advance they traveled with an extra suitcase full of jeans to sell, not so much for the money, but to make/help friends. It was also not uncommon for Soviet residents to queue up for whatever anyone was selling when it became available — Size 14 galoshes that will not even close to fit you? Get in line, buy as many as they'll sell you. You can sell/trade them later for something else. I've also been in situations with live hyperinflation, like 10% per week. The strategies people came up with to deal with that were also amazing. In the modern western societies, most people have literally zero idea of how far (or fast) things can go off the rails, or what that looks like. It is a great privilege to live in such profound blissful ignorance, and it is not appreciated.
  - deleted 2y ago
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  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    > I've also been in situations with live hyperinflation, like 10% per week. I don't know if it's because I have experienced it, but 10%/week inflation doesn't sound anything near as bleak as "basic necessities are only available every other month".
    - dingnuts 2y ago
      maybe it's because cash is just one asset.. at least if goods exist, you can barter for them, if the cash isn't any good if the necessities just aren't there because, oh I don't know, you took the farms from the farmers because they owned land and owning property was deemed evil, and then the crops failed[1], then they just aren't available and it doesn't matter how much money or gold or any other commodity you might have to exchange for them 1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
      - paulmd 2y ago
        it's always odd when people latch onto that as an example, because the west has definitely had politically-induced holodomors caused by over-export of staple crops as well. classically, the irish potato famine comes to mind. you can probably objectively calculate the relative importance of pre-capitalism serfs and post-capitalism serfs by volume of political discourse and online discussion and citations - the peasants are precious right up until we get them to adopt capitalism, and then they can starve to death after getting their hand ripped off in a mill while we ship all their potatoes off to india. it's sort of like the abortion thing, where fetuses are the most precious thing in the universe until they're yeeted through a cervix and then they can starve to death on the street corner. Anyway, it's just a weird argument in general. Authoritarian systems are bad, of course, but authoritarianism cuts across planned-vs-market economies, and the hallowed corporate boardroom is the epitome of central planning. What matters is not markets vs state charter, but being allowed to fail, and without it (say) Boeing is no different than the stuffiest soviet OKB, despite the fact boeing is a "free market" company. And when these arguments eventually devolve into people citing the dead nazis who died attempting to annex other countries as "victims of socialism", well... and again, you can say "tu quoque" all you want, but if a practice is so widely accepted as to be unremarkable then it's unremarkable. And the victims of capitalism are never brought up quite as readily - there's no PR machine spinning for the dead irish peasants, or someone who dies of a treatable chronic illness, or who spends their life in an american gulag for a trivial offense, etc. We got plenty of authoritarianism here too, and it sucks here too, but that's not the angle people bring it up in... literally ever. It's just our elites winding us up against whatever elites our elites are opposed to this week. The fact of the matter is that as automation displaces not just physical but also intellectual labor to greater and greater degrees, we are going to have to move away from the idea that people's intrinsic value is only what they contribute to the economy (market or state). Non-authoritarian socialism is pretty great and yes, I'll happily take the ticket to Norway and leave you alone.
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- 7thaccount 2y ago
  Econ teacher who went to Russia a lot used to talk about this a lot.
Tuna-Fish 2y ago
The meat thing was not an isolated incident. Finland had close enough relationship with the USSR that for the duration of the cold war, there were constantly some Soviet students and research scientists doing exchange programs in Finnish universities. When they first arrived in Finland, they were assigned a translator/guide whose job was, among other things, taking them grocery shopping. Because if they did that alone, a lot of them would end up buying their fridge full of meat. Because "meat days", meaning the day the local store happens to have meat, just were a normal thing that everyone adjusted to in the USSR.
emmelaich 2y ago
Two stories I heard recently; the Soviet Union tried some propaganda by showing people the movie 'Grapes of Wrath' and also saying people had to eat cat food to live. Actual Russian reactions: 1. even the poor own trucks?! 2. they have special food for .. cats?!
momojo 2y ago
Reminds me of a friend who taught 6th grade at a low-income school in LA-County. Before, she was rationed two (2) reams of paper a month. Upon transferring to a much more well-funded school, the other teachers had to talk her down from hoarding the unlimited reams in the break room.
- szszrk 2y ago
  My wife is a teacher and gets one ream per semester. In total, for all classes she teaches. It's geography for 10-14 year olds, so a lot of practice and tests of map usage and so on. Being a teacher here is definitely a mission, not a career. You just have to have a "sponsor" to participate (often this means husband), you can't just live on your salary.
mcswell 2y ago
There is a story about a man who goes to a shop in the Soviet Union, and finds the shelves empty. "Don't you have any meat?" he asks the clerk. The clerk responds, "No, here we don't have any fish. The store that doesn't have any meat is across the street."

agumonkey 2y ago

Also, it's easy to take basic necessities for granted. Only when you experienced hunger you realise how having plenty of affordable food is a luxury.

brightball 2y ago

People used to tell stories of visiting Russia and having people try to buy their blue jeans off of them while walking down the street.

toss1 2y ago
Yes, can confirm. I personally know multiple people who have had that exact experience; one just mentioned it last weekend. If they knew in advance they traveled with an extra suitcase full of jeans to sell, not so much for the money, but to make/help friends. It was also not uncommon for Soviet residents to queue up for whatever anyone was selling when it became available — Size 14 galoshes that will not even close to fit you? Get in line, buy as many as they'll sell you. You can sell/trade them later for something else. I've also been in situations with live hyperinflation, like 10% per week. The strategies people came up with to deal with that were also amazing. In the modern western societies, most people have literally zero idea of how far (or fast) things can go off the rails, or what that looks like. It is a great privilege to live in such profound blissful ignorance, and it is not appreciated.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  > I've also been in situations with live hyperinflation, like 10% per week. I don't know if it's because I have experienced it, but 10%/week inflation doesn't sound anything near as bleak as "basic necessities are only available every other month".
  - dingnuts 2y ago
    maybe it's because cash is just one asset.. at least if goods exist, you can barter for them, if the cash isn't any good if the necessities just aren't there because, oh I don't know, you took the farms from the farmers because they owned land and owning property was deemed evil, and then the crops failed[1], then they just aren't available and it doesn't matter how much money or gold or any other commodity you might have to exchange for them 1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
    - paulmd 2y ago
      it's always odd when people latch onto that as an example, because the west has definitely had politically-induced holodomors caused by over-export of staple crops as well. classically, the irish potato famine comes to mind. you can probably objectively calculate the relative importance of pre-capitalism serfs and post-capitalism serfs by volume of political discourse and online discussion and citations - the peasants are precious right up until we get them to adopt capitalism, and then they can starve to death after getting their hand ripped off in a mill while we ship all their potatoes off to india. it's sort of like the abortion thing, where fetuses are the most precious thing in the universe until they're yeeted through a cervix and then they can starve to death on the street corner. Anyway, it's just a weird argument in general. Authoritarian systems are bad, of course, but authoritarianism cuts across planned-vs-market economies, and the hallowed corporate boardroom is the epitome of central planning. What matters is not markets vs state charter, but being allowed to fail, and without it (say) Boeing is no different than the stuffiest soviet OKB, despite the fact boeing is a "free market" company. And when these arguments eventually devolve into people citing the dead nazis who died attempting to annex other countries as "victims of socialism", well... and again, you can say "tu quoque" all you want, but if a practice is so widely accepted as to be unremarkable then it's unremarkable. And the victims of capitalism are never brought up quite as readily - there's no PR machine spinning for the dead irish peasants, or someone who dies of a treatable chronic illness, or who spends their life in an american gulag for a trivial offense, etc. We got plenty of authoritarianism here too, and it sucks here too, but that's not the angle people bring it up in... literally ever. It's just our elites winding us up against whatever elites our elites are opposed to this week. The fact of the matter is that as automation displaces not just physical but also intellectual labor to greater and greater degrees, we are going to have to move away from the idea that people's intrinsic value is only what they contribute to the economy (market or state). Non-authoritarian socialism is pretty great and yes, I'll happily take the ticket to Norway and leave you alone.
deleted 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
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7thaccount 2y ago
Econ teacher who went to Russia a lot used to talk about this a lot.

Tuna-Fish 2y ago

The meat thing was not an isolated incident. Finland had close enough relationship with the USSR that for the duration of the cold war, there were constantly some Soviet students and research scientists doing exchange programs in Finnish universities. When they first arrived in Finland, they were assigned a translator/guide whose job was, among other things, taking them grocery shopping. Because if they did that alone, a lot of them would end up buying their fridge full of meat. Because "meat days", meaning the day the local store happens to have meat, just were a normal thing that everyone adjusted to in the USSR.

emmelaich 2y ago

Two stories I heard recently; the Soviet Union tried some propaganda by showing people the movie 'Grapes of Wrath' and also saying people had to eat cat food to live. Actual Russian reactions: 1. even the poor own trucks?! 2. they have special food for .. cats?!

momojo 2y ago

Reminds me of a friend who taught 6th grade at a low-income school in LA-County. Before, she was rationed two (2) reams of paper a month. Upon transferring to a much more well-funded school, the other teachers had to talk her down from hoarding the unlimited reams in the break room.

szszrk 2y ago
My wife is a teacher and gets one ream per semester. In total, for all classes she teaches. It's geography for 10-14 year olds, so a lot of practice and tests of map usage and so on. Being a teacher here is definitely a mission, not a career. You just have to have a "sponsor" to participate (often this means husband), you can't just live on your salary.

mcswell 2y ago

There is a story about a man who goes to a shop in the Soviet Union, and finds the shelves empty. "Don't you have any meat?" he asks the clerk. The clerk responds, "No, here we don't have any fish. The store that doesn't have any meat is across the street."