5 ms·

NVIDIA needs to be broken up

by brcmthrowaway 2y ago

huhlig 2y ago
Into what? Where would you draw such lines?
- robocat 2y ago
  Into tiles ;-p GPU compute is already broken up - there is a supply chain of other cooperating players that work together to deliver GPU compute to end users: TSMC, SK hynix, Synopsys, cloud providers (Azure/Amazon etcetera), model providers (OpenAI/Anthropic etcetera). Why single out NVidia in the chain? Plus the different critical parts of the chain are in different jurisdictions. Split up NVidia and somebody else will take over that spot in the ecosystem. This interview with Synopsys is rather enlightening: https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/the-software-behind-silicon-with-synopsys-founder-aart-de-geus-and-ceo-sassine-ghazi https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/the-software-behind-silicon... How does the profit currently get split between the different links? Profit is the forcing variable for market cap and profit is the indicator of advantage. Break up NVidia and where does the profit move?
latchkey 2y ago
The better alternative is to root for AMD and others to develop their own products so that regardless of breaking NV up or not, there are alternative solutions for people to use. They all leapfrog each other with new releases now any way. Why put all your eggs into one basket.
- simondotau 2y ago
  George Hotz went down the AMD rabbit hole for a while and concluded that the driver software — more precisely the firmware which runs on the cards themselves — is so badly written that there's no hope of them becoming serious contenders in AI without some major changes in AMD's priorities.
  - latchkey 2y ago
    I'm not defending their software. It does honestly have a ton of issues. George Hotz tried to get a consumer card to work. He also refused my public invitations to have free time on my enterprise cards, calling me an AMD shill. AMD listened and responded to him and gave him even the difficult things that he was demanding. He has the tools to make it work now and if he needs more, AMD already seems willing to give it. That is progress. To simply throw out George as the be-all and end-all of a $245B company... frankly absurd.
    - shmerl 2y ago
      Indeed, AMD willing to open firmware is something Nvidia never has done.
    - creato 2y ago
      The fact that consumer and "pro"(?) GPUs don't use (mostly) the same software is not confidence inspiring. It means that AMD's already apparently limited capacity for software development is stretched thinner than it otherwise would be. Also, if the consumer GPUs are hopelessly broken but the enterprise GPUs are fine, that greatly limits the number of people that can contribute to making the AMD AI software ecosystem better. How much of the utility of the NVIDIA software ecosystem comes from gaming GPU owners tinkering in their free time? Or grad students doing small scale research? I think these kinds of things are a big part of why NVIDIA's software is so much better than AMD right now.
      - wruza 2y ago
        that greatly limits the number of people that can contribute to making the AMD AI software ecosystem better I’d say it simply dials it down to zero. No one’s gonna buy an enterprise AMD card for playing with AI, so no one’s gonna contribute to that either. As a local AI enthusiast, this “but he used consumer card” complaint makes no sense to me.
        latchkey 2y ago
- PeterisP 2y ago
  We've rooted for that for years, but looking at what AMD does and doesn't do, I've lost hope for this. ĀMD don't seem to want to do what it takes; it's not that they're trying and failing, but they're simply not even committing to attempt to do the same things that nVidia does for their software infrastructure.
  - latchkey 2y ago
    We are still early. I started my bet on Lisa Su around August of last year... she publicly doubled down on AI around October/November. Dec 6th, MI300x was announced. Big ships take time to course correct. Look at their hiring for AI related positions and release schedule for ROCm. As well as multiple companies like mine springing up to purchase MI300x and satisfy rental demand. It is only May. We didn't even receive our AIA's until April. Another company just announced their MI300x hardware server offering today.
    - Paradigma11 2y ago
      I am going to ignore AMD till/if they get their shit together. They have lost any goodwill or trust many gpu generations ago. It is really up to them to make up for it.
      - latchkey 2y ago
        > It is really up to them to make up for it. That is obvious and the signs are there showing that they are working on it. What more do you expect?
silveraxe93 2y ago
NVIDIA is so damn good at its job that it took over the market. There's no regulatory or similar barriers to entry. It's literally that they do a damn good job and the competition can't be as good. You look at that and want to take a sledgehammer to a golden goose? I don't get these people
- michaelt 2y ago
  True: nvidia has been consistently investing for over a decade. They saw there was nascent compute use of GPUs, using programmable shaders. They produced CUDA, made it accessible on every one of their GPUs (not just the high-markup professional products) and they put resources into it year after year after year. Not just investing in the product, also the support tools (e.g. a full graphical profiler for your kernels) and training materials (e.g. providing free cloud GPU credits for Udacity courses) and libraries and open source contributions. This is what it looks like when a company has a vision, plans beyond the next quarter, and makes long-term investments.

NVIDIA needs to be broken up

huhlig 2y ago

Into what? Where would you draw such lines?

robocat 2y ago
Into tiles ;-p GPU compute is already broken up - there is a supply chain of other cooperating players that work together to deliver GPU compute to end users: TSMC, SK hynix, Synopsys, cloud providers (Azure/Amazon etcetera), model providers (OpenAI/Anthropic etcetera). Why single out NVidia in the chain? Plus the different critical parts of the chain are in different jurisdictions. Split up NVidia and somebody else will take over that spot in the ecosystem. This interview with Synopsys is rather enlightening: https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/the-software-behind-silicon-with-synopsys-founder-aart-de-geus-and-ceo-sassine-ghazi https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/the-software-behind-silicon... How does the profit currently get split between the different links? Profit is the forcing variable for market cap and profit is the indicator of advantage. Break up NVidia and where does the profit move?

latchkey 2y ago

The better alternative is to root for AMD and others to develop their own products so that regardless of breaking NV up or not, there are alternative solutions for people to use. They all leapfrog each other with new releases now any way. Why put all your eggs into one basket.

simondotau 2y ago
George Hotz went down the AMD rabbit hole for a while and concluded that the driver software — more precisely the firmware which runs on the cards themselves — is so badly written that there's no hope of them becoming serious contenders in AI without some major changes in AMD's priorities.
- latchkey 2y ago
  I'm not defending their software. It does honestly have a ton of issues. George Hotz tried to get a consumer card to work. He also refused my public invitations to have free time on my enterprise cards, calling me an AMD shill. AMD listened and responded to him and gave him even the difficult things that he was demanding. He has the tools to make it work now and if he needs more, AMD already seems willing to give it. That is progress. To simply throw out George as the be-all and end-all of a $245B company... frankly absurd.
  - shmerl 2y ago
    Indeed, AMD willing to open firmware is something Nvidia never has done.
  - creato 2y ago
    The fact that consumer and "pro"(?) GPUs don't use (mostly) the same software is not confidence inspiring. It means that AMD's already apparently limited capacity for software development is stretched thinner than it otherwise would be. Also, if the consumer GPUs are hopelessly broken but the enterprise GPUs are fine, that greatly limits the number of people that can contribute to making the AMD AI software ecosystem better. How much of the utility of the NVIDIA software ecosystem comes from gaming GPU owners tinkering in their free time? Or grad students doing small scale research? I think these kinds of things are a big part of why NVIDIA's software is so much better than AMD right now.
    - wruza 2y ago
      that greatly limits the number of people that can contribute to making the AMD AI software ecosystem better I’d say it simply dials it down to zero. No one’s gonna buy an enterprise AMD card for playing with AI, so no one’s gonna contribute to that either. As a local AI enthusiast, this “but he used consumer card” complaint makes no sense to me.
      - latchkey 2y ago
PeterisP 2y ago
We've rooted for that for years, but looking at what AMD does and doesn't do, I've lost hope for this. ĀMD don't seem to want to do what it takes; it's not that they're trying and failing, but they're simply not even committing to attempt to do the same things that nVidia does for their software infrastructure.
- latchkey 2y ago
  We are still early. I started my bet on Lisa Su around August of last year... she publicly doubled down on AI around October/November. Dec 6th, MI300x was announced. Big ships take time to course correct. Look at their hiring for AI related positions and release schedule for ROCm. As well as multiple companies like mine springing up to purchase MI300x and satisfy rental demand. It is only May. We didn't even receive our AIA's until April. Another company just announced their MI300x hardware server offering today.
  - Paradigma11 2y ago
    I am going to ignore AMD till/if they get their shit together. They have lost any goodwill or trust many gpu generations ago. It is really up to them to make up for it.
    - latchkey 2y ago
      > It is really up to them to make up for it. That is obvious and the signs are there showing that they are working on it. What more do you expect?

silveraxe93 2y ago

NVIDIA is so damn good at its job that it took over the market. There's no regulatory or similar barriers to entry. It's literally that they do a damn good job and the competition can't be as good. You look at that and want to take a sledgehammer to a golden goose? I don't get these people

michaelt 2y ago
True: nvidia has been consistently investing for over a decade. They saw there was nascent compute use of GPUs, using programmable shaders. They produced CUDA, made it accessible on every one of their GPUs (not just the high-markup professional products) and they put resources into it year after year after year. Not just investing in the product, also the support tools (e.g. a full graphical profiler for your kernels) and training materials (e.g. providing free cloud GPU credits for Udacity courses) and libraries and open source contributions. This is what it looks like when a company has a vision, plans beyond the next quarter, and makes long-term investments.