5 ms·

If only Apple allowed to run VMs and other software like Linux on their iPads, it would be a game-changer. Right now, the iPads are mostly limited to media prod

by adezxc 2y ago

If only Apple allowed to run VMs and other software like Linux on their iPads, it would be a game-changer. Right now, the iPads are mostly limited to media production tools + everything else you could get in an Android tablet, so it's pretty pointless for a user like me

levesque 2y ago
Is there really no way to do this?
- s3p 2y ago
  Sidecar sort of does this right now? If you are fine with the iPad functioning as a low res display that the Mac can send a few windows over to. It doesn't work amazingly well for me but I have used it a few times.
- stetrain 2y ago
  Not officially. You can side load UTM using AltStore which requires you to sign apps using your own developer certificate and re-sign them about once a week to keep it running. The iPads have had the hardware in the M-series chips and the software in the form of Apple's hypervisor framework in iPadOS for a couple of generations now, but Apple hasn't enabled it to be used officially. I really wish they would just allow this on iPadOS. It still maintains the sandbox model Apple wants for iOS, it would just give a (contained) outlet for doing things that are difficult in native iPadOS.
  - hhh 2y ago
    Within 6 months iPadOS will have side loading in the EU.
    - jijijijij 2y ago
      Source? I thought the DMA only covers iPhones. In any case, Apple still wants to "review" apps, and we want (arbitrary) user code execution on device. That's something Apple strictly forbids on iOS/iPadOS AFAIK (which is why we can't even have Firefox addons). Unless we can have at least true side loading, a DMA extension to iPad won't help. The DMA isn't really the right tool to liberate devices, since it's about market competition not consumer rights. I think it would be better to widely address this along right-to-repair, electronic waste reduction and consumer rights regarding actual ownership. Unconditionally locked hardware is ridiculous. I wish they would simply unlock the bootloader, so we can have Asahi Linux for iPad. They don't have to do anything else. Although Asahi is on trajectory to exceed MacOS performance and dev usability, I don't think they would lose their existing appstore cattle to Linux, but rather gain new hardware only customers.
      - Tomte 2y ago
        That was only the beginning: https://www.macrumors.com/2024/04/30/apple-must-allow-app-sideloading-ipads-eu-rules/ https://www.macrumors.com/2024/04/30/apple-must-allow-app-si...
        jijijijij 2y ago
        Thx. Though, I don't see true sideloading (like on Android) specified. If apps still need Apple's approval, we will get "freedom" who to pay, not what to run. I still don't see device liberation within the scope of the DMA. However, if we're lucky, Apple may decide the app approval process may not be worth it, if they are not allowed to extort developers anymore, so they may allow unsupervised sideloading as a consequence. In any case, requirements and reality may take much longer to align than 6 more months, considering Apple's cringeworthy tantrums so far...
        lonjil 2y ago
        > Though, I don't see true sideloading (like on Android) specified. If apps still need Apple's approval, we will get "freedom" who to pay, not what to run. I still don't see device liberation within the scope of the DMA. But if Apple abuses its position as platform gatekeeper with the app approval process and rules, the EU will probably slap them down. The DMA doesn't care about device liberation, but it does care about fairness, so Apple will probably only be allowed to continue this if they act in very good faith towards 3rd parties, which doesn't seem like an Apple thing to do.
        whazor 2y ago
        https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/discussions/6260 https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/discussions/6260
  - fathyb 2y ago
    > The iPads have had the hardware in the M-series chips and the software in the form of Apple's hypervisor framework in iPadOS for a couple of generations now, but Apple hasn't enabled it to be used officially. They removed the hypervisor framework in addition to the kernel support for virtualization a few months ago unfortunately.
jmkni 2y ago
If they could combine iPadOS and macOS, and have some clever way to flick between the iPad UI and the mac one, it would be an incredible device Plug it into a usb-c dock connected to a screen/keyboard/mouse and it's a Mac, put it on the little stand with the magic keyboard and it's a MacBook, hold it in your hand and it's an iPad My dream device
- akasakahakada 2y ago
  First let people seperate photos into different folders....
- mdavid626 2y ago
  Well, Microsoft tried this, it was called Windows 8. It failed miserably.
  - jmkni 2y ago
    Sadly it did, I had one of the OG Surfaces and really liked Windows 8
  - s3p 2y ago
    I mean, their strategy was awful. They replaced the start menu for the first time with a whole-screen abomination that ruined power user workflows. They made the desktop TOO much like a tablet, it seemed like they wanted one interface for everything. Apple is very clear about their product differentiation and would never make macOS and ipadOS exact copies. Case in point: when they brought cursor support over, they painstakingly engineered it to work differently and snap to objects on the screen. I think if they did OP's suggestion and had a macOS screen show up when an iPad is connected to peripherals it would actually work out well.
  - flohofwoe 2y ago
    Windows 8 failed because it tried to merge desktop and tablet UI paradigms. Switching between entirely different and separate "UI personalities" could work. I don't think the pointer vs touch UI is the main thing that people have in mind when wishing for macOS on the iPad though, instead a "proper" UNIX-style filesystem and shell, and the ability to install any software outside the app store via a package manager and without Apple's nanny reflex getting in the way.
anonzzzies 2y ago
Every new iPad release people beg for this…
- lm28469 2y ago
  You'll have to quantify "people", we're in a bubble inside of a bubble here on HN
  - user_7832 2y ago
    In his recent video MKBHD said the same. He’s certainly a tech YouTuber (probably the biggest) but no where as techy as the average HN crowd. A lot of comments on fetter & reddit also speak about this.
    - detourdog 2y ago
      I was really surprised by his review. His review made it seem like technical progress was not a worthy pursuit. We should be satisfied with the status quo and Apple should stop setting goals.
      - user_7832 2y ago
        I think it was more of how the latest iPads are still just a spec bump. The hardware has been perfect for several generations, it’s the software that’s holding the hardware back.
        detourdog 2y ago
        I understand that aspect but Apple has no choice but to push the envelopw. How important is his review if he has nothing to say?
    - lm28469 2y ago
      They sell 50m+ of them per year and according to Google there are 25m software devs in the world Even if they made every single one of them buy a new ipad every single year that would still be single digit change of revenue for apple
dktp 2y ago
As much as I'd like to see it being more open, a lot of people seem concerned about security and are happy with the current state of iOS/iPadOs and not having to deal with troubleshooting of their families devices
- datpiff 2y ago
  Those two scenarios are not mutually exclusive
wilsonnb3 2y ago
If the tablet form factor was really a game changer for software development, wouldn’t the surface line and high end android tablets be more popular for programming? Wouldn’t there actually be some popular Linux tablets out there? (I am aware that there are a couple of niche options) Touch screen interfaces are just not good for programming. Apple already brought all of the useful parts of the iPad to the Mac when they switched to the m series SOCs. Fanless design, long battery life, instant sleep/wake. An iPad running macOS has some niche appeal for people who want to travel light but I really don’t see it being a game changer at all.
- curt15 2y ago
  Maybe I'm just getting old, but my eyes find even a typical laptop display too straining for programming. I like my desktop monitors.
- user_7832 2y ago
  > If the tablet form factor was really a game changer for software development, wouldn’t the surface line and high end android tablets be more popular for programming? Not necessarily. The surface line has several hardware fumbles (especially regarding power budgets/efficiency). The A & M series chips could easily whip up most of their competition in the low power (>10 watt) segment, if Apple wanted. AMD and Intel push for high performance at 15-28watts on portables, which is too high for thin tablets. For maximum contrast: x86 tablets have fans. M1/m2 laptops can be fanless. (This isn’t to say it’s impossible but rather no company with deep enough pockets cares enough.)
  - wilsonnb3 2y ago
    I don’t think I’ve heard people complain about the surface performance, power usage, or battery life in a long time. Probably not since the surface pro 3, around the time that intel was making haswell. Also the Surface Pro 7 was fanless with x86 processors, plus the small one (surface go, I think) is fanless and x86 but does have performance issues.
- bee_rider 2y ago
nunez 2y ago
I seriously hope that this is getting announced at WWDC this year. There is nothing obvious stopping these iPads from running Virtualization.Framework.
MrSkelter 2y ago
Easy porting would make everything slower. People would stop targeting Apple hardware and the machines would be running everything in emulation. Making porting difficult is a strategy. It requires publishers to make the leap and when they do they take full advantage of the hardware.

by adezxc 2y ago

levesque 2y ago

Is there really no way to do this?

s3p 2y ago
Sidecar sort of does this right now? If you are fine with the iPad functioning as a low res display that the Mac can send a few windows over to. It doesn't work amazingly well for me but I have used it a few times.
stetrain 2y ago
Not officially. You can side load UTM using AltStore which requires you to sign apps using your own developer certificate and re-sign them about once a week to keep it running. The iPads have had the hardware in the M-series chips and the software in the form of Apple's hypervisor framework in iPadOS for a couple of generations now, but Apple hasn't enabled it to be used officially. I really wish they would just allow this on iPadOS. It still maintains the sandbox model Apple wants for iOS, it would just give a (contained) outlet for doing things that are difficult in native iPadOS.
- hhh 2y ago
  Within 6 months iPadOS will have side loading in the EU.
  - jijijijij 2y ago
    Source? I thought the DMA only covers iPhones. In any case, Apple still wants to "review" apps, and we want (arbitrary) user code execution on device. That's something Apple strictly forbids on iOS/iPadOS AFAIK (which is why we can't even have Firefox addons). Unless we can have at least true side loading, a DMA extension to iPad won't help. The DMA isn't really the right tool to liberate devices, since it's about market competition not consumer rights. I think it would be better to widely address this along right-to-repair, electronic waste reduction and consumer rights regarding actual ownership. Unconditionally locked hardware is ridiculous. I wish they would simply unlock the bootloader, so we can have Asahi Linux for iPad. They don't have to do anything else. Although Asahi is on trajectory to exceed MacOS performance and dev usability, I don't think they would lose their existing appstore cattle to Linux, but rather gain new hardware only customers.
    - Tomte 2y ago
      That was only the beginning: https://www.macrumors.com/2024/04/30/apple-must-allow-app-sideloading-ipads-eu-rules/ https://www.macrumors.com/2024/04/30/apple-must-allow-app-si...
      - jijijijij 2y ago
        Thx. Though, I don't see true sideloading (like on Android) specified. If apps still need Apple's approval, we will get "freedom" who to pay, not what to run. I still don't see device liberation within the scope of the DMA. However, if we're lucky, Apple may decide the app approval process may not be worth it, if they are not allowed to extort developers anymore, so they may allow unsupervised sideloading as a consequence. In any case, requirements and reality may take much longer to align than 6 more months, considering Apple's cringeworthy tantrums so far...
        lonjil 2y ago
        > Though, I don't see true sideloading (like on Android) specified. If apps still need Apple's approval, we will get "freedom" who to pay, not what to run. I still don't see device liberation within the scope of the DMA. But if Apple abuses its position as platform gatekeeper with the app approval process and rules, the EU will probably slap them down. The DMA doesn't care about device liberation, but it does care about fairness, so Apple will probably only be allowed to continue this if they act in very good faith towards 3rd parties, which doesn't seem like an Apple thing to do.
      - whazor 2y ago
        https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/discussions/6260 https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/discussions/6260
- fathyb 2y ago
  > The iPads have had the hardware in the M-series chips and the software in the form of Apple's hypervisor framework in iPadOS for a couple of generations now, but Apple hasn't enabled it to be used officially. They removed the hypervisor framework in addition to the kernel support for virtualization a few months ago unfortunately.

jmkni 2y ago

If they could combine iPadOS and macOS, and have some clever way to flick between the iPad UI and the mac one, it would be an incredible device Plug it into a usb-c dock connected to a screen/keyboard/mouse and it's a Mac, put it on the little stand with the magic keyboard and it's a MacBook, hold it in your hand and it's an iPad My dream device

akasakahakada 2y ago
First let people seperate photos into different folders....
mdavid626 2y ago
Well, Microsoft tried this, it was called Windows 8. It failed miserably.
- jmkni 2y ago
  Sadly it did, I had one of the OG Surfaces and really liked Windows 8
- s3p 2y ago
  I mean, their strategy was awful. They replaced the start menu for the first time with a whole-screen abomination that ruined power user workflows. They made the desktop TOO much like a tablet, it seemed like they wanted one interface for everything. Apple is very clear about their product differentiation and would never make macOS and ipadOS exact copies. Case in point: when they brought cursor support over, they painstakingly engineered it to work differently and snap to objects on the screen. I think if they did OP's suggestion and had a macOS screen show up when an iPad is connected to peripherals it would actually work out well.
- flohofwoe 2y ago
  Windows 8 failed because it tried to merge desktop and tablet UI paradigms. Switching between entirely different and separate "UI personalities" could work. I don't think the pointer vs touch UI is the main thing that people have in mind when wishing for macOS on the iPad though, instead a "proper" UNIX-style filesystem and shell, and the ability to install any software outside the app store via a package manager and without Apple's nanny reflex getting in the way.

anonzzzies 2y ago

Every new iPad release people beg for this…

lm28469 2y ago
You'll have to quantify "people", we're in a bubble inside of a bubble here on HN
- user_7832 2y ago
  In his recent video MKBHD said the same. He’s certainly a tech YouTuber (probably the biggest) but no where as techy as the average HN crowd. A lot of comments on fetter & reddit also speak about this.
  - detourdog 2y ago
    I was really surprised by his review. His review made it seem like technical progress was not a worthy pursuit. We should be satisfied with the status quo and Apple should stop setting goals.
    - user_7832 2y ago
      I think it was more of how the latest iPads are still just a spec bump. The hardware has been perfect for several generations, it’s the software that’s holding the hardware back.
      - detourdog 2y ago
        I understand that aspect but Apple has no choice but to push the envelopw. How important is his review if he has nothing to say?
  - lm28469 2y ago
    They sell 50m+ of them per year and according to Google there are 25m software devs in the world Even if they made every single one of them buy a new ipad every single year that would still be single digit change of revenue for apple

dktp 2y ago

As much as I'd like to see it being more open, a lot of people seem concerned about security and are happy with the current state of iOS/iPadOs and not having to deal with troubleshooting of their families devices

datpiff 2y ago
Those two scenarios are not mutually exclusive

wilsonnb3 2y ago

If the tablet form factor was really a game changer for software development, wouldn’t the surface line and high end android tablets be more popular for programming? Wouldn’t there actually be some popular Linux tablets out there? (I am aware that there are a couple of niche options) Touch screen interfaces are just not good for programming. Apple already brought all of the useful parts of the iPad to the Mac when they switched to the m series SOCs. Fanless design, long battery life, instant sleep/wake. An iPad running macOS has some niche appeal for people who want to travel light but I really don’t see it being a game changer at all.

curt15 2y ago
Maybe I'm just getting old, but my eyes find even a typical laptop display too straining for programming. I like my desktop monitors.
user_7832 2y ago
> If the tablet form factor was really a game changer for software development, wouldn’t the surface line and high end android tablets be more popular for programming? Not necessarily. The surface line has several hardware fumbles (especially regarding power budgets/efficiency). The A & M series chips could easily whip up most of their competition in the low power (>10 watt) segment, if Apple wanted. AMD and Intel push for high performance at 15-28watts on portables, which is too high for thin tablets. For maximum contrast: x86 tablets have fans. M1/m2 laptops can be fanless. (This isn’t to say it’s impossible but rather no company with deep enough pockets cares enough.)
- wilsonnb3 2y ago
  I don’t think I’ve heard people complain about the surface performance, power usage, or battery life in a long time. Probably not since the surface pro 3, around the time that intel was making haswell. Also the Surface Pro 7 was fanless with x86 processors, plus the small one (surface go, I think) is fanless and x86 but does have performance issues.
bee_rider 2y ago

nunez 2y ago

I seriously hope that this is getting announced at WWDC this year. There is nothing obvious stopping these iPads from running Virtualization.Framework.

MrSkelter 2y ago

Easy porting would make everything slower. People would stop targeting Apple hardware and the machines would be running everything in emulation. Making porting difficult is a strategy. It requires publishers to make the leap and when they do they take full advantage of the hardware.