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OpenAI could unveil its Google search competitor on Monday

33 points by retskrad 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
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funspeak 2y ago
[flagged]
bko 2y ago
Not sure how this would be different from Bing Copilot. I use copilot a bit and it's great for some general queries about current events or things that are written in many articles. For instance, how many children does Drake have or what's up with Eurovision (referenced in dozens of spammy articles). But I noticed it overly relies on search. If I ask a technical question, it relies on those same crappy search results, compared to gpt which answers correctly without referencing anything external. I don't know if you can bridge that divide but I'm curious what openai comes up with and how its different from bing copilot
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  I wonder if you could prompt engineer a more useful result by asking it to say what it knows and then add synthesis of recent urls as well.
Nevermark 2y ago
> “People come to us because we are trusted,” said Raghavan. Well I don’t. Kagi is much better. Thank you, Kagi. I shouldn’t be emotional about this, but I find I am getting very angry with these large companies with business models that use their users. There doesn’t seem to be any way for them to avoid getting worse, given their market caps and multiples have years of continued innovation in user surveillance and manipulation priced in. (And in general, I am not against success.) I hope the AI industry keeps a healthy paid tier going. Because mass free, ad-driven AI is not going to be pretty.
- maxerickson 2y ago
  There's no reason to reserve you ire for large companies, any business that chooses to make their product irritating for some incremental increase in profitability deserves our scorn.
  - Nevermark 2y ago
    I think irritating vs. insidious are different. And pervasive vs. easily avoided are different. And I can think of other differences. With respect to surveillance especially: Scale has a quality all its own. I grant that I do notice when any service or product has obvious unaddressed flaws. But that is a different tier from companies globally warping the fabric of society.
- dpkirchner 2y ago
  I think it's fair to be angry that Google has used their power to, frankly, ruin large parts of the web by incentivizing bad behavior.
infotainment 2y ago
I'm skeptical about this, mostly based on my experience trying Perplexity recently, which is I assume roughly what OpenAI's future product will be like. My impression was that it essentially does a web search and then uses an LLM to summarize the top few results. It's useful for certain types of general knowledge questions, but for anything involving finding something specific, which is probably 90% of my Google usage (for example, finding the URL of some particular project on Github), it tends to fall flat.
- prng2021 2y ago
  Completely agree. Google has the upper hand because you still need a great traditional search engine to weight/rank the content the LLM should summarize. Otherwise you end up spending a lot of extra time sending follow up questions. Here's an example asking perplexity something I've already researched a lot. I asked what's the best PC monitor for work. It cited several sites including Rtings and Forbes. It then told me the best was a Dell monitor based on the Forbes site. Rtings is definitely the better site for monitor reviews and didn't even rank that monitor as one of the best. I then asked Perplexity, what's the best website for pc monitor reviews. It responded Rtings was the best, listed a few others, and didn't even mention Forbes.
  - hedora 2y ago
    Kagi’s ”?” operator (I’d expect openai to do better than it) suggests RTings, then Display Ninja, PC Magazine, and finally, reddit. I don’t think Google has much of an advantage in this fight. Presumably, OpenAI will be able to partner with bing if they want. Thanks to the antitrust suit, we know for sure that Google has been intentionally tanking search relevance in order to prop up their ad display numbers. I’m guessing none of the smaller search engines do that (since they all desperately want to grow their market share).
    - prng2021 2y ago
      I think Google has 3 huge advantages. 1. They're the incumbent with almost monopolistic market share. People aren't going to switch to a new product that's just roughly as good. It has to be way better. 2. Their search algorithm is straight up better than their next biggest competitor, Bing. The latter has tried for years to overtake google and failed. 3. They have copious amounts of user specific data across their products/services. That enables tailored AI responses. You have a fair point about google propping up ad buyers. That is their Achilles heel.
ErrrNoMate 2y ago
the AI will continue until morale improves
- Nevermark 2y ago
  "This goulash is inedible!" "Ah, comrade, you are just not eating enough!"
wand3r 2y ago
OpenAI has proven to be WAY too opinionated about information access for me to trust it as a search engine. I believe they COULD provide a high quality search experience but they definitely will NOT.
- kolinko 2y ago
  Example queries?
  - hedora 2y ago
    Search for: openapi paternalism Many, many articles have been written on the implications of the ChatGPT censorship stuff.
    - kolinko 2y ago
      I asked gpt this and here are the results: https://chat.openai.com/share/e/fc40c207-6e8c-430d-9435-c8d9153ad01f https://chat.openai.com/share/e/fc40c207-6e8c-430d-9435-c8d9... Or did you mean that you don’t have specific queries that you did yourself that were too biased, but you’ve read some people had?
      - wand3r 2y ago
        I don't use it too much anymore personally as too many attempts literally just failed at dispatch and never made it to the model. I don't want an opinionated search engine. I use Kagi now and it's been pretty good so far. I also don't know why you seem to be implying to the other user that it's some conspiracy OpenAI is biased. All models are biased. I personally want to be able to search information that I want without a roadblock in the middle determining if I can complete my request or not.
whywhywhywhy 2y ago
I honestly think Google is completely vulnerable in search currently, the actual results you get back from Google and Image Search are shockingly poor, even get it zclaiming it has no results now for some queries which I just know isn't true because 10 years ago you could type anything in and there would be at least 6 figures if not 7 figures of results for any term. Actually think even if a western company just launched Google from 10 years ago again today people would switch over because it would be better than what their offering today is. Not sure if OpenAI will get converts but it's definitely the right time to be taking on those stagnant and rotten products Google has, well neglected isn't the right word but more spent the past few years optimizing the wrong metric to the point of breaking the product.
- Nevermark 2y ago
  Wow. I agree, people would sign on for an old version of Google in a second. I suppose there is no external access to any legacy Google code to make this A/B test. But it would be wonderful!
EcommerceFlow 2y ago
As an SEO I'm a bit excited and interested to see how they'll be "ranking" information, or whether every source will be paid-ad only.
deleted 2y ago
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ssahoo 2y ago
It will be essentially a bing competitor. They are already doing LLM on search. What is the strategy to compete with Google except ads?

33 points by retskrad 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

funspeak 2y ago

[flagged]

bko 2y ago

Not sure how this would be different from Bing Copilot. I use copilot a bit and it's great for some general queries about current events or things that are written in many articles. For instance, how many children does Drake have or what's up with Eurovision (referenced in dozens of spammy articles). But I noticed it overly relies on search. If I ask a technical question, it relies on those same crappy search results, compared to gpt which answers correctly without referencing anything external. I don't know if you can bridge that divide but I'm curious what openai comes up with and how its different from bing copilot

jvanderbot 2y ago
I wonder if you could prompt engineer a more useful result by asking it to say what it knows and then add synthesis of recent urls as well.

Nevermark 2y ago

> “People come to us because we are trusted,” said Raghavan. Well I don’t. Kagi is much better. Thank you, Kagi. I shouldn’t be emotional about this, but I find I am getting very angry with these large companies with business models that use their users. There doesn’t seem to be any way for them to avoid getting worse, given their market caps and multiples have years of continued innovation in user surveillance and manipulation priced in. (And in general, I am not against success.) I hope the AI industry keeps a healthy paid tier going. Because mass free, ad-driven AI is not going to be pretty.

maxerickson 2y ago
There's no reason to reserve you ire for large companies, any business that chooses to make their product irritating for some incremental increase in profitability deserves our scorn.
- Nevermark 2y ago
  I think irritating vs. insidious are different. And pervasive vs. easily avoided are different. And I can think of other differences. With respect to surveillance especially: Scale has a quality all its own. I grant that I do notice when any service or product has obvious unaddressed flaws. But that is a different tier from companies globally warping the fabric of society.
dpkirchner 2y ago
I think it's fair to be angry that Google has used their power to, frankly, ruin large parts of the web by incentivizing bad behavior.

infotainment 2y ago

I'm skeptical about this, mostly based on my experience trying Perplexity recently, which is I assume roughly what OpenAI's future product will be like. My impression was that it essentially does a web search and then uses an LLM to summarize the top few results. It's useful for certain types of general knowledge questions, but for anything involving finding something specific, which is probably 90% of my Google usage (for example, finding the URL of some particular project on Github), it tends to fall flat.

prng2021 2y ago
Completely agree. Google has the upper hand because you still need a great traditional search engine to weight/rank the content the LLM should summarize. Otherwise you end up spending a lot of extra time sending follow up questions. Here's an example asking perplexity something I've already researched a lot. I asked what's the best PC monitor for work. It cited several sites including Rtings and Forbes. It then told me the best was a Dell monitor based on the Forbes site. Rtings is definitely the better site for monitor reviews and didn't even rank that monitor as one of the best. I then asked Perplexity, what's the best website for pc monitor reviews. It responded Rtings was the best, listed a few others, and didn't even mention Forbes.
- hedora 2y ago
  Kagi’s ”?” operator (I’d expect openai to do better than it) suggests RTings, then Display Ninja, PC Magazine, and finally, reddit. I don’t think Google has much of an advantage in this fight. Presumably, OpenAI will be able to partner with bing if they want. Thanks to the antitrust suit, we know for sure that Google has been intentionally tanking search relevance in order to prop up their ad display numbers. I’m guessing none of the smaller search engines do that (since they all desperately want to grow their market share).
  - prng2021 2y ago
    I think Google has 3 huge advantages. 1. They're the incumbent with almost monopolistic market share. People aren't going to switch to a new product that's just roughly as good. It has to be way better. 2. Their search algorithm is straight up better than their next biggest competitor, Bing. The latter has tried for years to overtake google and failed. 3. They have copious amounts of user specific data across their products/services. That enables tailored AI responses. You have a fair point about google propping up ad buyers. That is their Achilles heel.

ErrrNoMate 2y ago

the AI will continue until morale improves

Nevermark 2y ago
"This goulash is inedible!" "Ah, comrade, you are just not eating enough!"

wand3r 2y ago

OpenAI has proven to be WAY too opinionated about information access for me to trust it as a search engine. I believe they COULD provide a high quality search experience but they definitely will NOT.

kolinko 2y ago
Example queries?
- hedora 2y ago
  Search for: openapi paternalism Many, many articles have been written on the implications of the ChatGPT censorship stuff.
  - kolinko 2y ago
    I asked gpt this and here are the results: https://chat.openai.com/share/e/fc40c207-6e8c-430d-9435-c8d9153ad01f https://chat.openai.com/share/e/fc40c207-6e8c-430d-9435-c8d9... Or did you mean that you don’t have specific queries that you did yourself that were too biased, but you’ve read some people had?
    - wand3r 2y ago
      I don't use it too much anymore personally as too many attempts literally just failed at dispatch and never made it to the model. I don't want an opinionated search engine. I use Kagi now and it's been pretty good so far. I also don't know why you seem to be implying to the other user that it's some conspiracy OpenAI is biased. All models are biased. I personally want to be able to search information that I want without a roadblock in the middle determining if I can complete my request or not.

whywhywhywhy 2y ago

I honestly think Google is completely vulnerable in search currently, the actual results you get back from Google and Image Search are shockingly poor, even get it zclaiming it has no results now for some queries which I just know isn't true because 10 years ago you could type anything in and there would be at least 6 figures if not 7 figures of results for any term. Actually think even if a western company just launched Google from 10 years ago again today people would switch over because it would be better than what their offering today is. Not sure if OpenAI will get converts but it's definitely the right time to be taking on those stagnant and rotten products Google has, well neglected isn't the right word but more spent the past few years optimizing the wrong metric to the point of breaking the product.

Nevermark 2y ago
Wow. I agree, people would sign on for an old version of Google in a second. I suppose there is no external access to any legacy Google code to make this A/B test. But it would be wonderful!

EcommerceFlow 2y ago

As an SEO I'm a bit excited and interested to see how they'll be "ranking" information, or whether every source will be paid-ad only.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ssahoo 2y ago

It will be essentially a bing competitor. They are already doing LLM on search. What is the strategy to compete with Google except ads?