5 ms·

Do you really expect privacy-preserving tech to come out of China? Chinese companies are compelled by law to share the data they process with the government. Co

by imiric 2y ago

Do you really expect privacy-preserving tech to come out of China? Chinese companies are compelled by law to share the data they process with the government. Companies of the size and influence of Huawei are basically government actors. And governments, particularly authoritarian ones, want all your data. This OS project is precisely an effort for them to gain more access to user data (and partly to take control away from a US company). Why would they actively sabotage that with privacy-preserving tech?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
Chinese companies are compelled to share data for "national security" purposes, if requested. The situation is the same in the US, however. Recall that the NSA secretly compelled US telecom networks to hand over all call records (in violation of the 4th Amendment). However, in day-to-day business operations, there are laws governing how companies can use customer data. My understanding is that data privacy laws are now stricter in China than in the US.
- imiric 2y ago
  You're wrong, this is nothing like the legal requirements US companies must comply with. For one, Chinese companies must have a CCP member in their leadership ranks. A company the size of Huawei has hundreds of them[1]. This kind of goes without saying in an autocracy that there will be party members in all companies, but it often blurs the line of private vs. state ownership. Secondly, there are laws in place that require companies to provide direct feeds to the government of the data they process[2]. In the US, programs like PRISM were kept secret and made headlines when they were revealed, as there is still some amount of legal process that needs to happen before the government can access company data (Apple is famous for refusing, regardless if that's just PR or not), but in China this is done in the open, and all companies must comply. I find that comparing an autocratic government to others that at least have some semblance of democracy is pointless. It's a certainty that in an autocracy companies and individuals have much less control over property, including their highly valuable digital data. [1]: https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2019/08/08/2003720108 https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2019/08... [2]: https://thehill.com/opinion/cybersecurity/532583-for-chinese-firms-theft-of-your-data-is-now-a-legal-requirement/ https://thehill.com/opinion/cybersecurity/532583-for-chinese...
  - hulitu 2y ago
    > I find that comparing an autocratic government to others that at least have some semblance of democracy is pointless. It's a certainty that in an autocracy companies and individuals have much less control over property, including their highly valuable digital data. So US and Western Europe are autocracies then ? Because I cannot control which info the iOS, Android and Windows syphons to the US government. And Apple is the company which fixes 0 days when others find them. And they also had a HW backdoor.
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      It isn’t a binary, it’s a spectrum.
    - imiric 2y ago
      > So US and Western Europe are autocracies then ? That's ridiculous. > Because I cannot control which info the iOS, Android and Windows syphons to the US government. The laws are certainly not where they need to be, but a European citizen can at least provide consent to how their data is handled, request their data from companies, and ask for it to be deleted. Last I heard, there are similar laws in some US states. China has recently passed similar laws (PIPL), but I'm not sure how that can be reconciled with living in a surveillance state, where your actions online can harm your social credit score, get you arrested[1], or disappeared. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3259183/chinese-police-arrest-over-1500-online-rumours-campaign-targeting-influencers-bloggers-and-live https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3259183/chi...
      - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
        > your actions online can harm your social credit score There is no such thing as a social credit score in China. It's a myth. The fact that this myth has persisted for so many years is puzzling.
        imiric 2y ago
        I suppose you're going to tell me that the documented cases of people being refused employment or basic services because they've behaved in a way that authorities deem morally "wrong" is also a myth? Western propaganda, surely. But please link me to any proof. I want to be educated. Also, way to ignore the part where people are arrested or disappeared for the same behavior. At least we can agree that much is true.

by imiric 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago

Chinese companies are compelled to share data for "national security" purposes, if requested. The situation is the same in the US, however. Recall that the NSA secretly compelled US telecom networks to hand over all call records (in violation of the 4th Amendment). However, in day-to-day business operations, there are laws governing how companies can use customer data. My understanding is that data privacy laws are now stricter in China than in the US.

imiric 2y ago
You're wrong, this is nothing like the legal requirements US companies must comply with. For one, Chinese companies must have a CCP member in their leadership ranks. A company the size of Huawei has hundreds of them[1]. This kind of goes without saying in an autocracy that there will be party members in all companies, but it often blurs the line of private vs. state ownership. Secondly, there are laws in place that require companies to provide direct feeds to the government of the data they process[2]. In the US, programs like PRISM were kept secret and made headlines when they were revealed, as there is still some amount of legal process that needs to happen before the government can access company data (Apple is famous for refusing, regardless if that's just PR or not), but in China this is done in the open, and all companies must comply. I find that comparing an autocratic government to others that at least have some semblance of democracy is pointless. It's a certainty that in an autocracy companies and individuals have much less control over property, including their highly valuable digital data. [1]: https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2019/08/08/2003720108 https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2019/08... [2]: https://thehill.com/opinion/cybersecurity/532583-for-chinese-firms-theft-of-your-data-is-now-a-legal-requirement/ https://thehill.com/opinion/cybersecurity/532583-for-chinese...
- hulitu 2y ago
  > I find that comparing an autocratic government to others that at least have some semblance of democracy is pointless. It's a certainty that in an autocracy companies and individuals have much less control over property, including their highly valuable digital data. So US and Western Europe are autocracies then ? Because I cannot control which info the iOS, Android and Windows syphons to the US government. And Apple is the company which fixes 0 days when others find them. And they also had a HW backdoor.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    It isn’t a binary, it’s a spectrum.
  - imiric 2y ago
    > So US and Western Europe are autocracies then ? That's ridiculous. > Because I cannot control which info the iOS, Android and Windows syphons to the US government. The laws are certainly not where they need to be, but a European citizen can at least provide consent to how their data is handled, request their data from companies, and ask for it to be deleted. Last I heard, there are similar laws in some US states. China has recently passed similar laws (PIPL), but I'm not sure how that can be reconciled with living in a surveillance state, where your actions online can harm your social credit score, get you arrested[1], or disappeared. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3259183/chinese-police-arrest-over-1500-online-rumours-campaign-targeting-influencers-bloggers-and-live https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3259183/chi...
    - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
      > your actions online can harm your social credit score There is no such thing as a social credit score in China. It's a myth. The fact that this myth has persisted for so many years is puzzling.
      - imiric 2y ago
        I suppose you're going to tell me that the documented cases of people being refused employment or basic services because they've behaved in a way that authorities deem morally "wrong" is also a myth? Western propaganda, surely. But please link me to any proof. I want to be educated. Also, way to ignore the part where people are arrested or disappeared for the same behavior. At least we can agree that much is true.