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> The solution is not forcing the global economy to grind to a halt by abruptly forcing oil companies to stop extracting oil > Saudi Arabia and Russia will nev

> The solution is not forcing the global economy to grind to a halt by abruptly forcing oil companies to stop extracting oil > Saudi Arabia and Russia will never stop You are contradicting yourself - either the global economy won’t grind to a halt, because activist is ineffective, or activism is too effective? The west should be cleaning up its own house and leading by example - instead it has spent decades pointing fingers at China and other countries shouting ‘you first’. Well, guess what, China is now worlds leading user and producer of eclectic cars, has electric busses and most of USA doesn’t. We are the ones behind now, and in fact neither you nor the media have realised it yet. In the next 2 years it will become clear that the king is banked, and that the leadership is no longer with the west, and I am afraid the consequences for us will be significant. The Sputnik moment has already happened, you just aren’t watching.

Slava_Propanei 2y ago
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no_exit 2y ago
> Well, guess what, China is now worlds leading user and producer of eclectic cars, has electric busses and most of USA doesn’t. We are the ones behind now, and in fact neither you nor the media have realised it yet. The media has realized, unfortunately, hence the latest barrage of complaints about overproduction/dumping. Blinken and Yellen's speeches about that were pathetic.
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
The US hardly screams at China at all, but China is completely fixated on the US (if media is anything to go by). The US will do things at its own pace like China does, picking at it as a competition is merely a saving face thing that doesn't really exist in the west. Its only been a decade or so since China had all of those things. You would see multiple obviously imported Tesla Model S's in Beijing way before you saw even one BYD EV taxi. Then China invested in a short period of time and now they have much more than the US. But the time period was so short that China hardly has a moat in these areas. > In the next 2 years it will become clear that the king is banked, and that the leadership is no longer with the west, and I am afraid the consequences for us will be significant. We heard this before in the 1980s and that didn't pan out at all. This is just the 1980s again with China in place of Japan; China even has a much bigger real estate bubble than Japan ever did, the consequences will be similar if not worse. The same demographic crash is also coming to China, history is just a broken record.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  China has 10x the population and impact of Japan; this is a silly comparison. Japan never had this large share of the world manufacturing
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    Doesn’t that just make it worse?
_djo_ 2y ago
> The west should be cleaning up its own house and leading by example - instead it has spent decades pointing fingers at China and other countries shouting ‘you first’ This is inaccurate. The west has been cleaning up its own house and leading by example. While they could and should have done much more, western countries implemented emissions reductions measures long before demanding anyone else do it, and in fact for decades explicitly excluded China as a developing country from having to comply with these agreements. As a result, western emissions have been declining for decades and, most importantly, became decoupled from GDP growth for the first time in history. In the meantime China has dramatically surged its emissions, becoming the biggest emitter by far. India and Russia have also increased emissions substantially, becoming the third and fourth highest emitters. In fact, the entire EU now produces fewer carbon emissions than India, and only a little more than Russia. If current trends continue, before long the top three emitters will be China, India, and Russia, and their trajectories remain worrying. So any solution that doesn’t encourage those countries to also reduce their emissions is going to doom us all to accelerating climate change. As for the moral argument, it’s no more moral for China, India, and Russia to emit all the pollution they can than it was when western countries did it. If anything, it’s even more immoral given that better technologies exist and we understand the problem much better.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  > As a result, western emissions have been declining for decades and, most importantly Most of our emission reduction was achieved by outsourcing manufacturing to China. We don’t get an award for that: > Eu now produces fewer emission than India Comparison of emissions should be done per capita - India is expected to emit more that EU, it has almost 3x as he population. The he idea that US should be top emitter forever when it’s only 300k people is absurd. Also EU has invested way more into cleantech than US has and has many times more production of these technologies than US does Lastly - don’t lump Russia together with China and India - China and India are actively developing countries with active leadership. Russia is stagnant and a bit of a failed state. So there is no point of comparing with failed states. Immorality is irrelevant - we will get rekt economically: EU is, right now, asking China to reduce production of electric cars and complaining that they are unfairly flooding the market

Slava_Propanei 2y ago

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no_exit 2y ago

> Well, guess what, China is now worlds leading user and producer of eclectic cars, has electric busses and most of USA doesn’t. We are the ones behind now, and in fact neither you nor the media have realised it yet. The media has realized, unfortunately, hence the latest barrage of complaints about overproduction/dumping. Blinken and Yellen's speeches about that were pathetic.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

The US hardly screams at China at all, but China is completely fixated on the US (if media is anything to go by). The US will do things at its own pace like China does, picking at it as a competition is merely a saving face thing that doesn't really exist in the west. Its only been a decade or so since China had all of those things. You would see multiple obviously imported Tesla Model S's in Beijing way before you saw even one BYD EV taxi. Then China invested in a short period of time and now they have much more than the US. But the time period was so short that China hardly has a moat in these areas. > In the next 2 years it will become clear that the king is banked, and that the leadership is no longer with the west, and I am afraid the consequences for us will be significant. We heard this before in the 1980s and that didn't pan out at all. This is just the 1980s again with China in place of Japan; China even has a much bigger real estate bubble than Japan ever did, the consequences will be similar if not worse. The same demographic crash is also coming to China, history is just a broken record.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago
China has 10x the population and impact of Japan; this is a silly comparison. Japan never had this large share of the world manufacturing
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  Doesn’t that just make it worse?

_djo_ 2y ago

> The west should be cleaning up its own house and leading by example - instead it has spent decades pointing fingers at China and other countries shouting ‘you first’ This is inaccurate. The west has been cleaning up its own house and leading by example. While they could and should have done much more, western countries implemented emissions reductions measures long before demanding anyone else do it, and in fact for decades explicitly excluded China as a developing country from having to comply with these agreements. As a result, western emissions have been declining for decades and, most importantly, became decoupled from GDP growth for the first time in history. In the meantime China has dramatically surged its emissions, becoming the biggest emitter by far. India and Russia have also increased emissions substantially, becoming the third and fourth highest emitters. In fact, the entire EU now produces fewer carbon emissions than India, and only a little more than Russia. If current trends continue, before long the top three emitters will be China, India, and Russia, and their trajectories remain worrying. So any solution that doesn’t encourage those countries to also reduce their emissions is going to doom us all to accelerating climate change. As for the moral argument, it’s no more moral for China, India, and Russia to emit all the pollution they can than it was when western countries did it. If anything, it’s even more immoral given that better technologies exist and we understand the problem much better.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago
> As a result, western emissions have been declining for decades and, most importantly Most of our emission reduction was achieved by outsourcing manufacturing to China. We don’t get an award for that: > Eu now produces fewer emission than India Comparison of emissions should be done per capita - India is expected to emit more that EU, it has almost 3x as he population. The he idea that US should be top emitter forever when it’s only 300k people is absurd. Also EU has invested way more into cleantech than US has and has many times more production of these technologies than US does Lastly - don’t lump Russia together with China and India - China and India are actively developing countries with active leadership. Russia is stagnant and a bit of a failed state. So there is no point of comparing with failed states. Immorality is irrelevant - we will get rekt economically: EU is, right now, asking China to reduce production of electric cars and complaining that they are unfairly flooding the market