10 ms·

If you are a "delivery driven" person who cancels holidays to keep working, I would say to you, from own experience: stop being stupid. I know, that, specially

If you are a "delivery driven" person who cancels holidays to keep working, I would say to you, from own experience: stop being stupid. I know, that, specially when you get recognised for the hard work it is hard, but you will regret every minute. If you work for a company that counts on your holidays and vacation to sell their products, you are helping to create the problematic world with have today. If many do that, more will need to do. If none do it, and act like it is an absurd to request it (and it is) nobody is forced to do it and the company is forced to do real estimates even if that hurts your fav CEO pocket

winrid 2y ago
this is probably why they are grumpy now :)
louwrentius 2y ago
The messiah complex is rampant with both developers and operations people. The are addicted to feeling valuable and important. When they get home from work, they have nothing else to do.
- rozenmd 2y ago
  My hack was to start my own product, that way (at least for two hours a day) I get to play messiah for 100% of my own equity
  - intelVISA 2y ago
    Own product is great, although it becomes difficult to justify bikeshedding variable names and a possible 3rd Rust rewrite when you should be grinding out more hours on marketing and sales.
    - doublerabbit 2y ago
      Or writing documentation for your product.
  - resource_waste 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - rozenmd 2y ago
      Yeah, doing alright - might end up employing me eventually.
    - salmonfamine 2y ago
      [flagged]
- sshine 2y ago
  It’s not that I have nothing else to do. It’s that the dopamine hit of fixing a thing that affects my team often outweighs any other choice. Working out frequently, getting a family, getting a side project off the ramp, and reducing to part-time have all helped me with my addiction to feeling valuable and important when nothing else is gained than becoming known for fixing stuff in weekends free of charge.
  - motbus3 2y ago
    I will help you. The truth is that you are an asset. Even if they make you feel important, you are as important as a good chair. They will replace you without thinking twice if they want.
    - wasteduniverse 2y ago
      [dead]
  - antisthenes 2y ago
    > It’s not that I have nothing else to do. It’s that the dopamine hit of fixing a thing that affects my team often outweighs any other choice. I know first hand about the "fixer" mindset that a lot of engineering-minded men have. Do yourself a favor and fix things mostly for your family/friends, and your company a distant third. Every single person will be better off in this scenario. It's a hard learned sometimes counter-intuitive lesson, but it must be learned.
- chpmrc 2y ago
  This is not a great take. I have plenty of things to do outside of work and I will still do what's "right" in my mind, especially if there's enough evidence that it will make my and other people's life easier in the long run. There are plenty of people like that in a company but they normally don't cluster together, so it feels like "nobody else cares". That's false. At times that's how exactly how products, or even entire companies, are saved. Because a bunch of individuals who think like that get together and work hard to accomplish something. Whether that effort is recognized or not depends on the company. If it's not then, I agree, it would be irrational to keep pushing. But you can't know until you try. (Edit: to be clear, I'm not advocating prioritizing work over anything else, that really depends on you, but there's a fine line between "working hard" and being obsessed. The latter will more often than not result in a net negative in most cases. The same level of effort and/or prioritization should be applied to all areas of life)
  - spookie 2y ago
    I come from a country where work culture has gotten to the point where no one cares. It's a self-fullfilling prophecy of delays, lies, and lower compensation. The correct approach is to be flexible, recognise that your family is worth more than the company, but still give a shit about your work and getting it done.
- Simon_ORourke 2y ago
  I heartily agree, but it's poor form when the threshold for Messiah is so low.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- resource_waste 2y ago
  I think this is due to my environment. That 'Insecure Overacheiver' idea resonated with me. Had 1-2 childhood events that shaped you, and now you are afraid to do anything except 'be high value'. I'm aware of it, I'm even aware of philosophies like Absurdism, good luck changing me. Its either in my DNA or faux-PTSD.
flibble 2y ago
[edit: I retract my comment that it's bad advice to not cancel holidays to work hard. I misread the comment that I replied to -- I had thought the commenter was saying don't work extra hard in your role as it's never worth it. That's not what the commenter said though. In my experience, people who produce more value in the world are more valuable and get rewarded more than those who don't.] I think this is poor and dangerous advice for anyone who wants to get ahead in life. If you are happy to coast by and not achieve much in life, sure, don’t work hard. But if you want to be one of the few who either rise to the top in your field or to create value in the world, then don’t feel bad about wanting to work hard. People generally learn by doing and those who do a lot learn a lot. Of course, don’t prioritize it over things that are important to you (physical health, family etc) but don’t feel it’s wrong to prioritize it above stuff isn’t important to you (eg Netflix and YouTube shorts).
- intelVISA 2y ago
  Working hard is the only reliable route to excellence, the tough part is making sure you don't get exploited along the way - 50% equity or walk.
  - refurb 2y ago
    This is the sound advice. Nothing wrong with working hard, but make sure you get something about of it. If you’re being asked to cancel a holiday because some clown can’t get anything done without setting realistic timelines, don’t do it. But if you take a job where your boss says “we need to get this done by this date and we need people who are willing to get it done even if that means sacrificing work-life balance” and you get paid like you should for a job like that, then do it.
    - mkbosmans 2y ago
      > get paid like you should for a job like that Does that happen very often though?
- fineIllregister 2y ago
steveBK123 2y ago
Unless you are getting the economics of saving the day (you are a large equity holder / partner) then structuring your life completely around work is a fools errand. Communicate your holiday plans, arrange coverage, put it team calendars, do hand-offs.. and then take it. Projects come & go, dates slip on their own. If you move holidays for project dates you will never take holidays. The only exceptions would be if you are in a role with seasonality and its generally understood end of year / end of quarter / tax time / something is well known busy season and its in poor taste to disappear during it.
- itsoktocry 2y ago
  >The only exceptions would be if you are in a role with seasonality and its generally understood end of year / end of quarter / tax time / something is well known busy season and its in poor taste to disappear during it. This is exactly how you get guilted into working during vacation; everything is sold as an exception.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    I think the point there is vacation schedules can differ wildly from the seeming social norm depending on the occupation. Some lines of work simply require you to be working when everyone else is on vacation.
    - portaouflop 2y ago
      This is fine IMO if you get compensated. For example my old job I got double baseline pay for Sundays and holiday work. This was fair. Nowadays working in software I sometimes do stuff on the weekend - but only because I know I can take longer breaks during the week since part of the work is already done. “Good enough” is my goal and it should be generally. IMO Norway has the best working culture in that regard, although I only know if from the outside/stories.
    - steveBK123 2y ago
      Right it's not about moving holidays its about planning them for a reasonable time if you have strong seasonality to your job. If your job is some giant e-commerce retailer and you probably shouldn't take Black Friday or the week before Christmas off. If you work in accounting or some operations role then quarter end is likely bad. If you work in tax, then late March thru April probably bad. Etc. There's plenty of time in the year to take off around whatever your jobs regular busy season is. Don't set yourself up for failure.
duxup 2y ago
For some people it is a chosen lifestyle I think.
what-the-grump 2y ago
>If you are a "delivery driven" person who cancels holidays to keep working, I would say to you, from own experience: stop being stupid. You should put that on a coffee mug and sell it. It would make a great gift to a bunch of people that I know.
acimim_ha 2y ago
If I won't do it, somebody else will. And we're back and square one.
billy99k 2y ago
Companies will also never remember your hard work when it comes to layoffs. My cousin worked until 1am almost every day from September 2023-January 2024 to complete a poorly managed project. He only had Christmas off because the director thought employees would sue as it is a religious holiday. He missed important events and lost about 20 pounds, because of stress. The company had a hard deadline to move over to a brand new system. They had 5 years notice and decided not to start it until the year before. If they didn't make the deadline, it would mean millions of dollars in costs because it was outside the contract. Him and his team made the deadline. His reward was being laid off a few weeks later as his position was eliminated. Now he's over 50 and trying to find work in a terrible time to look for a job.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  The company didn't remember his long hours, but I bet his family will remember it for a long time.
- just_testing 2y ago
  This is awful in so many ways
not2b 2y ago
I remember a company meeting where a series of employee recognition awards were given out, and the story for about four awards in a row was an employee who spent nights and weekends heroically fixing a giant mess, at least enough to make a deadline. In a couple of cases the employee who got the award was also partly responsible for the mess. After about the fourth one the top managers in the room finally got it that the company had a problem.
- octopusRex 2y ago
  I remember an awards occasion where the employees who received the recognition for actually heroically fixing a mess could not make it to the stage because they had been laid off. Awkward silence ensued. ...
rowanG077 2y ago
Why should that person sacrifice themselves when they are happy working? Just so other people are not held to that standard? That seems like a management issues. Don't expect the same things from everyone.
sonicanatidae 2y ago
With 30+ years of personal experience, my qualified statement to the next reader is that the above is 100% accurate.

winrid 2y ago

this is probably why they are grumpy now :)

louwrentius 2y ago

The messiah complex is rampant with both developers and operations people. The are addicted to feeling valuable and important. When they get home from work, they have nothing else to do.

rozenmd 2y ago
My hack was to start my own product, that way (at least for two hours a day) I get to play messiah for 100% of my own equity
- intelVISA 2y ago
  Own product is great, although it becomes difficult to justify bikeshedding variable names and a possible 3rd Rust rewrite when you should be grinding out more hours on marketing and sales.
  - doublerabbit 2y ago
    Or writing documentation for your product.
- resource_waste 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - rozenmd 2y ago
    Yeah, doing alright - might end up employing me eventually.
  - salmonfamine 2y ago
    [flagged]
sshine 2y ago
It’s not that I have nothing else to do. It’s that the dopamine hit of fixing a thing that affects my team often outweighs any other choice. Working out frequently, getting a family, getting a side project off the ramp, and reducing to part-time have all helped me with my addiction to feeling valuable and important when nothing else is gained than becoming known for fixing stuff in weekends free of charge.
- motbus3 2y ago
  I will help you. The truth is that you are an asset. Even if they make you feel important, you are as important as a good chair. They will replace you without thinking twice if they want.
  - wasteduniverse 2y ago
    [dead]
- antisthenes 2y ago
  > It’s not that I have nothing else to do. It’s that the dopamine hit of fixing a thing that affects my team often outweighs any other choice. I know first hand about the "fixer" mindset that a lot of engineering-minded men have. Do yourself a favor and fix things mostly for your family/friends, and your company a distant third. Every single person will be better off in this scenario. It's a hard learned sometimes counter-intuitive lesson, but it must be learned.
chpmrc 2y ago
This is not a great take. I have plenty of things to do outside of work and I will still do what's "right" in my mind, especially if there's enough evidence that it will make my and other people's life easier in the long run. There are plenty of people like that in a company but they normally don't cluster together, so it feels like "nobody else cares". That's false. At times that's how exactly how products, or even entire companies, are saved. Because a bunch of individuals who think like that get together and work hard to accomplish something. Whether that effort is recognized or not depends on the company. If it's not then, I agree, it would be irrational to keep pushing. But you can't know until you try. (Edit: to be clear, I'm not advocating prioritizing work over anything else, that really depends on you, but there's a fine line between "working hard" and being obsessed. The latter will more often than not result in a net negative in most cases. The same level of effort and/or prioritization should be applied to all areas of life)
- spookie 2y ago
  I come from a country where work culture has gotten to the point where no one cares. It's a self-fullfilling prophecy of delays, lies, and lower compensation. The correct approach is to be flexible, recognise that your family is worth more than the company, but still give a shit about your work and getting it done.
Simon_ORourke 2y ago
I heartily agree, but it's poor form when the threshold for Messiah is so low.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
resource_waste 2y ago
I think this is due to my environment. That 'Insecure Overacheiver' idea resonated with me. Had 1-2 childhood events that shaped you, and now you are afraid to do anything except 'be high value'. I'm aware of it, I'm even aware of philosophies like Absurdism, good luck changing me. Its either in my DNA or faux-PTSD.

flibble 2y ago

[edit: I retract my comment that it's bad advice to not cancel holidays to work hard. I misread the comment that I replied to -- I had thought the commenter was saying don't work extra hard in your role as it's never worth it. That's not what the commenter said though. In my experience, people who produce more value in the world are more valuable and get rewarded more than those who don't.] I think this is poor and dangerous advice for anyone who wants to get ahead in life. If you are happy to coast by and not achieve much in life, sure, don’t work hard. But if you want to be one of the few who either rise to the top in your field or to create value in the world, then don’t feel bad about wanting to work hard. People generally learn by doing and those who do a lot learn a lot. Of course, don’t prioritize it over things that are important to you (physical health, family etc) but don’t feel it’s wrong to prioritize it above stuff isn’t important to you (eg Netflix and YouTube shorts).

intelVISA 2y ago
Working hard is the only reliable route to excellence, the tough part is making sure you don't get exploited along the way - 50% equity or walk.
- refurb 2y ago
  This is the sound advice. Nothing wrong with working hard, but make sure you get something about of it. If you’re being asked to cancel a holiday because some clown can’t get anything done without setting realistic timelines, don’t do it. But if you take a job where your boss says “we need to get this done by this date and we need people who are willing to get it done even if that means sacrificing work-life balance” and you get paid like you should for a job like that, then do it.
  - mkbosmans 2y ago
    > get paid like you should for a job like that Does that happen very often though?
fineIllregister 2y ago

steveBK123 2y ago

Unless you are getting the economics of saving the day (you are a large equity holder / partner) then structuring your life completely around work is a fools errand. Communicate your holiday plans, arrange coverage, put it team calendars, do hand-offs.. and then take it. Projects come & go, dates slip on their own. If you move holidays for project dates you will never take holidays. The only exceptions would be if you are in a role with seasonality and its generally understood end of year / end of quarter / tax time / something is well known busy season and its in poor taste to disappear during it.

itsoktocry 2y ago
>The only exceptions would be if you are in a role with seasonality and its generally understood end of year / end of quarter / tax time / something is well known busy season and its in poor taste to disappear during it. This is exactly how you get guilted into working during vacation; everything is sold as an exception.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  I think the point there is vacation schedules can differ wildly from the seeming social norm depending on the occupation. Some lines of work simply require you to be working when everyone else is on vacation.
  - portaouflop 2y ago
    This is fine IMO if you get compensated. For example my old job I got double baseline pay for Sundays and holiday work. This was fair. Nowadays working in software I sometimes do stuff on the weekend - but only because I know I can take longer breaks during the week since part of the work is already done. “Good enough” is my goal and it should be generally. IMO Norway has the best working culture in that regard, although I only know if from the outside/stories.
  - steveBK123 2y ago
    Right it's not about moving holidays its about planning them for a reasonable time if you have strong seasonality to your job. If your job is some giant e-commerce retailer and you probably shouldn't take Black Friday or the week before Christmas off. If you work in accounting or some operations role then quarter end is likely bad. If you work in tax, then late March thru April probably bad. Etc. There's plenty of time in the year to take off around whatever your jobs regular busy season is. Don't set yourself up for failure.

duxup 2y ago

For some people it is a chosen lifestyle I think.

what-the-grump 2y ago

>If you are a "delivery driven" person who cancels holidays to keep working, I would say to you, from own experience: stop being stupid. You should put that on a coffee mug and sell it. It would make a great gift to a bunch of people that I know.

acimim_ha 2y ago

If I won't do it, somebody else will. And we're back and square one.

billy99k 2y ago

Companies will also never remember your hard work when it comes to layoffs. My cousin worked until 1am almost every day from September 2023-January 2024 to complete a poorly managed project. He only had Christmas off because the director thought employees would sue as it is a religious holiday. He missed important events and lost about 20 pounds, because of stress. The company had a hard deadline to move over to a brand new system. They had 5 years notice and decided not to start it until the year before. If they didn't make the deadline, it would mean millions of dollars in costs because it was outside the contract. Him and his team made the deadline. His reward was being laid off a few weeks later as his position was eliminated. Now he's over 50 and trying to find work in a terrible time to look for a job.

ryandrake 2y ago
The company didn't remember his long hours, but I bet his family will remember it for a long time.
just_testing 2y ago
This is awful in so many ways

not2b 2y ago

I remember a company meeting where a series of employee recognition awards were given out, and the story for about four awards in a row was an employee who spent nights and weekends heroically fixing a giant mess, at least enough to make a deadline. In a couple of cases the employee who got the award was also partly responsible for the mess. After about the fourth one the top managers in the room finally got it that the company had a problem.

octopusRex 2y ago
I remember an awards occasion where the employees who received the recognition for actually heroically fixing a mess could not make it to the stage because they had been laid off. Awkward silence ensued. ...

rowanG077 2y ago

Why should that person sacrifice themselves when they are happy working? Just so other people are not held to that standard? That seems like a management issues. Don't expect the same things from everyone.

sonicanatidae 2y ago

With 30+ years of personal experience, my qualified statement to the next reader is that the above is 100% accurate.