4 ms·

Everything in this story is dysfunctional, including the protagonist's approach. It is completely unacceptable for a team leader to give their people time off a

by roenxi 3y ago

Everything in this story is dysfunctional, including the protagonist's approach. It is completely unacceptable for a team leader to give their people time off and lie about it and he is well in to territory where the company could fire him. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a fire-for-cause situation, in fact. Although upper management sounds so off the rails that he would probably get away with it and get a commendation of some sort; it does seem to be a play to the environment he's in. A tip for new team leads; there is nothing here to feel proud of and a better play is to kick up a huge stink about people are working overtime and insist that the vendor be held to sane standards or project scopes reconsidered to fit in a normal work week schedule. Trying to make this sort of situation work is going to burn people out for nothing, or get people fired with no potential upside. Unless I were truly desperate for work to keep my family going, a team lead has a responsibility to protect their team's reasonable work hours from insane requests. That is a hill to get sacked over, but not to lie for.

speedbird 3y ago
Because throwing the CTO under the bus is always career enhancing ...
- roenxi 3y ago
  That isn't throwing anyone under the bus. I've had literally that conversation and it went fine. If you're optimising for dev productivity, you let them take holidays and work them to a plan that lets them get a good night's sleep and some time to recover.
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    You literally had what conversation? You went over the CTOs head, to the CEO, problem got fixed, and your career stayed on track, and it was a company of > 5 people? #1) That's a miracle. #2) That's before we get to the actual situation. It's December and work is due to the client in 1 month. 99 times out of 100, the CEO is going to decide you're an insubordinate loose cannon showing up inappropriately late to make confusing complaints about outsourcing decisions that were made 10 months ago. Conversely, lets say you made a big stink about this 10 months ago, when the outsourcing decision was made. 999 times out of 1000, the CEO is going to assume you're an insubordinate loose cannon showing up inappropriately to make confusing complaints about outsourcing that are above your pay grade. Hell is other people, and I find it very hard to believe you have extensive experience and can breezily handwave about "literally having that conversation", in any form. I can think of a reason why at every point in this entire story, the person complaining would be blamed. I don't think the outcome is great, I'd definitely be looking for other jobs, but again, 36 years old and every experience I've had everywhere is that these situations are bad news and you wanna avoid conflict, unless you have nothing to lose.
    - roenxi 3y ago
      The "kick up a huge stink about people are working overtime and insist that the vendor be held to sane standards or project scopes reconsidered to fit in a normal work week schedule" one. I'm not sure where you're getting "went over the CTOs head" from; I never suggested doing that. It sounds like a stupid thing to do. You kick up a stink by talking to the CTO, 1:1. Or whoever you report to.
      - refulgentis 3y ago
        Ummm...let me think here: Poster: Because throwing the CTO under the bus is always career enhancing ... You: That isn't throwing anyone under the bus. I've literally had that conversation. Me: What do you mean? You complained to the CEO about the CTO? You can't "throw the CTO under the bus" when talking to the CTO, "throwing X under the bus" colloquially means "blame X for the problem when talking to authority figure Y" That's why your comments are confusing. The thread leading up to your comment is presupposing tattling on the CTO to some authority figure. You were very terse and dismissive in your reply. Apparently you were trying to communicate "No, I was smart, I didn't talk to an authority figure", instead you said you've "literally had that conversation", which would further imply you tattled to a authority figure, and that you only wanted to disagree on whether this constituted throwing the CTO under the bus to the authority figure.
        CRConrad 3y ago
        Should have thought one step further back: The weirdness comes in going from "a better play is to kick up a huge stink about people are working overtime and insist that the vendor be held to sane standards" to "throwing the CTO under the bus". The huge stink was kicked up with the CTO, so there never was any "throwing under the bus". It's your "Poster", the next commenter after OP, who introduced the confusion -- not OP (your "you"). HTH! ETA, after looking up names: No, the thread up to then was not about "tattling to a [higher] authority figure". Poster roenxi was the OP, with "raising a huge stink". Then speedbird2 misunderstood that as "throwing under the bus", and you're for some reason taking that misunderstanding as defining what the thread was about.
- tw8345 3y ago
  sometimes you burn the CTO but you better make sure you brought ample firewood because guys at top can take some serious heat before melting and most low levels underestimate the amount of firewood it takes resulting in getting roasted by the leader instead.
- cess11 3y ago
  Once I worked for a company that had an ex-googler on the board who tried to act as CTO. Eventually I tried desperately to throw that person under the bus but the CEO bizarrely moved the bus around instead of letting the bad influence on the company take a hit. Took a year of trying, then I left and one of the other two developers did as well. Would have stayed for longer if they payed me more which I made very clear, but they were stingy, adding like ten percent to an already pretty low salary and presenting it as such an effort on their part.
dheera 3y ago
> It is completely unacceptable for a team leader to give their people time off It is more unreasonable for the company to cancel already-given time off.
nashashmi 3y ago
The part you are missing here is that the work was already done and none of that progress was shared with management. After all what would they do? Accelerate the project! Stick it to the man when they try to get others to work harder to glorify themselves. Weak bastards.
stronglikedan 3y ago
The team leader reports to the CTO. The team only reports to the team leader. Therefore, it's perfectly acceptable for the team leader to give their people the time off, and even lie about it, since it didn't affect performance.

by roenxi 3y ago

speedbird 3y ago

Because throwing the CTO under the bus is always career enhancing ...

roenxi 3y ago
That isn't throwing anyone under the bus. I've had literally that conversation and it went fine. If you're optimising for dev productivity, you let them take holidays and work them to a plan that lets them get a good night's sleep and some time to recover.
- refulgentis 3y ago
  You literally had what conversation? You went over the CTOs head, to the CEO, problem got fixed, and your career stayed on track, and it was a company of > 5 people? #1) That's a miracle. #2) That's before we get to the actual situation. It's December and work is due to the client in 1 month. 99 times out of 100, the CEO is going to decide you're an insubordinate loose cannon showing up inappropriately late to make confusing complaints about outsourcing decisions that were made 10 months ago. Conversely, lets say you made a big stink about this 10 months ago, when the outsourcing decision was made. 999 times out of 1000, the CEO is going to assume you're an insubordinate loose cannon showing up inappropriately to make confusing complaints about outsourcing that are above your pay grade. Hell is other people, and I find it very hard to believe you have extensive experience and can breezily handwave about "literally having that conversation", in any form. I can think of a reason why at every point in this entire story, the person complaining would be blamed. I don't think the outcome is great, I'd definitely be looking for other jobs, but again, 36 years old and every experience I've had everywhere is that these situations are bad news and you wanna avoid conflict, unless you have nothing to lose.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    The "kick up a huge stink about people are working overtime and insist that the vendor be held to sane standards or project scopes reconsidered to fit in a normal work week schedule" one. I'm not sure where you're getting "went over the CTOs head" from; I never suggested doing that. It sounds like a stupid thing to do. You kick up a stink by talking to the CTO, 1:1. Or whoever you report to.
    - refulgentis 3y ago
      Ummm...let me think here: Poster: Because throwing the CTO under the bus is always career enhancing ... You: That isn't throwing anyone under the bus. I've literally had that conversation. Me: What do you mean? You complained to the CEO about the CTO? You can't "throw the CTO under the bus" when talking to the CTO, "throwing X under the bus" colloquially means "blame X for the problem when talking to authority figure Y" That's why your comments are confusing. The thread leading up to your comment is presupposing tattling on the CTO to some authority figure. You were very terse and dismissive in your reply. Apparently you were trying to communicate "No, I was smart, I didn't talk to an authority figure", instead you said you've "literally had that conversation", which would further imply you tattled to a authority figure, and that you only wanted to disagree on whether this constituted throwing the CTO under the bus to the authority figure.
      - CRConrad 3y ago
        Should have thought one step further back: The weirdness comes in going from "a better play is to kick up a huge stink about people are working overtime and insist that the vendor be held to sane standards" to "throwing the CTO under the bus". The huge stink was kicked up with the CTO, so there never was any "throwing under the bus". It's your "Poster", the next commenter after OP, who introduced the confusion -- not OP (your "you"). HTH! ETA, after looking up names: No, the thread up to then was not about "tattling to a [higher] authority figure". Poster roenxi was the OP, with "raising a huge stink". Then speedbird2 misunderstood that as "throwing under the bus", and you're for some reason taking that misunderstanding as defining what the thread was about.
tw8345 3y ago
sometimes you burn the CTO but you better make sure you brought ample firewood because guys at top can take some serious heat before melting and most low levels underestimate the amount of firewood it takes resulting in getting roasted by the leader instead.
cess11 3y ago
Once I worked for a company that had an ex-googler on the board who tried to act as CTO. Eventually I tried desperately to throw that person under the bus but the CEO bizarrely moved the bus around instead of letting the bad influence on the company take a hit. Took a year of trying, then I left and one of the other two developers did as well. Would have stayed for longer if they payed me more which I made very clear, but they were stingy, adding like ten percent to an already pretty low salary and presenting it as such an effort on their part.

dheera 3y ago

> It is completely unacceptable for a team leader to give their people time off It is more unreasonable for the company to cancel already-given time off.

nashashmi 3y ago

The part you are missing here is that the work was already done and none of that progress was shared with management. After all what would they do? Accelerate the project! Stick it to the man when they try to get others to work harder to glorify themselves. Weak bastards.

stronglikedan 3y ago

The team leader reports to the CTO. The team only reports to the team leader. Therefore, it's perfectly acceptable for the team leader to give their people the time off, and even lie about it, since it didn't affect performance.